RBTS7 - L'estasi Dell'oro

[Diamondeye]

RB succession games usually start at Realms Beyond. L'estasi Dell'oro came out of this thread. You can see the idea morphed quite a bit! If you like variants, or think you might like variants, I'd suggest you try out one of the Adventure or Epic games (registration is free). The current Epic is probably going to be a lot of fun .

Darrell

Thanks a bunch. I'll check out some of those links, even though it will be some time before I can really dedicate time to Civ again due to vacations.

EDIT: Realms Beyond overview of RBTS games length from 1 to 4, not 7. Is this a mistake or just lack of update?

 

[sunrise089]

EDIT: Realms Beyond overview of RBTS games length from 1 to 4, not 7. Is this a mistake or just lack of update?

Just a lack of updates. Both individuals with admin permission for the site have very busy lives outside Civ, and normally what time is invested goes towards creating Epics, Adventures, and SG's, as well as their webspace.

 

[T-hawk]

Lies. Lets not forgot the extra great scientists it will produce over the course of the game

You mean the one-third of the great scientists that'll pop on your team's turns and do anything useful for you. The other two-thirds are most likely to go for Golden Ages, unless they happen to lightbulb something immediately useful for military or culture.

But no, I can't set the same trap regarding academies - that building is clearly science, not culture in disguise.

 

[Garath]

I see the game, and can play Tuesday or Wednesday night easily. However, it's currently unclear how many turns I should be playing (I thought it was going to be 15 this round, but Qwack seems to have played 20), and which patch I should be playing them on.

Garath:

Spoiler :

Qwack's plan seems to have us bogged down defending against Alexander, rather than taking the initiative in an offensive war. Its quite a good one I have to admit. Let's turn the tables on them by focusing on Settlers . Whip 'em non-stop, and settle what sites we can. We really need Catapults, so I think Construction is our tech priority. I'd also trade Drama and Literature to the AI for, well, anything. Even just cash or to start a war. If we lose the Music race, well, it wasn't a major goal of ours anyway . I'll try to look at the save and see if I can come up with any better ideas.

Darrell:

Spoiler :

Alex hasn't declared yet, but it does sound like he might well. I doubt he'll be all that much of a problem from last place, though. Construction and any progress towards Guilds I can make whilst building Horse Archers, I think. I'd like for you to be able to research Guilds as quickly as possible on your next set, then spend lots of cash on upgrades to Knights and go on an offensive, if that's at all possible. I might even prefer movement on Guilds to Construction - not only is there more chance that someone else will research Construction than the Guilds line, but I don't think we have the time to wait for Catapults when we actually do go on offensives, it's going to be all about speed of fast units.

Whilst founding more cities is probably good, I'm reserving final judgement until I actually load up the game. I have a suspicion that we don't actually want to slow down the tech pace. Whilst it appears to advantage the Space team, I'm not actually all that worried about them. Even if we get near the end of the tech tree, I can't see how they can possibly launch faster than we can roll over the AIs with Tanks. I'm therefore all in favour of the tech pace being fast, since the performance of the Culture Team is pretty much independent of tech, but fighting tends to get easier (and, crucially, faster) as we progress through the tree. Therefore, I don't intend to *completely* crash the economy building cities.

In view of the above, if you agree, I think we should investigate trying to make some small parts of common cause with the Space team. I think we can probably afford to offer them things that they will *think* are significantly to their advantage if it gains us anything much over the Culture team, because I really do think that Culture has a much better chance of winning this than either of the rest of us do.

I agree strongly with the plan to trade away tech wherever possible for anything interesting, especially the techs listed. I'm definitely still interested in anything further you have to say if you can look at the save as well - I'm unlikely to be able to see it before I play unless I'm waiting an extra day for the express purpose of discussion.

Oh, and if we do build any more wonders, I want to stack as many of them in a single city (probably Madrid) as possible. A single city with 100000 culture doesn't help them any more than 50000, after all. We should make sure that Space are on board with that plan, if they haven't decided it for themselves.

Garath

 

[Diamondeye]

LURKER: @ Domination team only:

Spoiler :

You might be locked in defending against Alexander, but isn't the best defense a good offense?

 

[darrelljs]

I would say patch if not already patched and play however many Qwack played for one more round.

Garath:

Spoiler :

I like your thoughts, go ahead and play when you are ready since I'm probably not going to get a chance to open the save anytime soon. One thing that struck, me was Heroic Epic in Madrid before it is too late. That's a pretty high culture building, it would stink if they put it in a 2nd tier cultural city with little production (possible to do with Marble). This fits with your idea of concentrating cultural wonders in one city.

Darrell

 

[Qwack]

Oh sorry, I did not see darrels post on page 2 regarding the 15 turns per set. My mistake.

 

[Garath]

Ok, I'll play 20 turns on patch 3.17 in a few hours.

Garath

 

[Garath]

Going by the tech screen, all of the next rank of techs are already out, so I stick with Metal Casting, since it's a relatively poorly known tech. Suleiman is the only AI who really likes us, since we share his religion, but the only tech he has is a monopoly, so he's not willing to trade just yet.

Anyway, I trade out a few techs for pretty much everything on offer - some gold and Calendar. I immediately sent out workers to the calendar resources, turned the tech spending up to burn through the new cash. I'm impressed with how Madrid is set up, though I do think that several of the cities are better served on some slightly more military tasks. There have been some changes to Horse Archers in the new patch, and so I want to try them out.

darrell:

Spoiler :

Sadly, even the four techs we hold over Alexander weren't enough to pay him to go to war with anyone, despite that he's willing to consider almost anyone as a target.

Once Metal Casting came in, I started a few Forges. Whipped most of them, but not Madrid, which doesn't have enough growth to compensate for the loss of productive tiles.

I traded out more old tech through the turn for cash to keep researching on Machinery, and I picked up Feudalism from Suleiman once it lost monopoly status. That gave me Construction and Code of Laws on the next, a solid three-fer. I immediately adopted Vassalage (of course), which should be good for the new Horse Archers (7xp and counting...).

My advisors kept telling me to do silly things like that, but I knew better. More Horse Archers!

Much better. Oh yeah, there's a Golden Age there as well. I started one of those, it seemed appropriate.

This is just getting ridiculous.


Alex has made a serious tactical blunder.

By which I mean, of course, that he has failed to get hold of Feudalism when I have an attack force. It's time.

You know what? That might have worked better if I'd noticed the two units Alex had wandering through our territory, that got kicked out within range to attack and capture a poorly defended inner city. Uh... oops.
Still, at least some good came of it. Cleaning house gave me a 10xp Horse Archer in just enough time to complete the Heroic Epic on my last turn.

Meanwhile, payback time. Promoted Horse Archers rolled right over the pitiful archer defence, providing enough gold to complete Guilds.

Please note that not only do we currently have Guilds as a monopoly tech, and not only do we therefore have Knights over everyone else, but we also have a significant attack force just finished healing after capturing the first city. There are plenty more troops and a Great General heading in that direction as backup, too. It would be absolutely criminal not to press this advantage whilst we have it.

Darrell:

Spoiler :

I think I achieved roughly what was sensible on that turn. I more than doubled our power graph, and in decent units that will be upgradeable in future as necessary to keep pressing advantage. I don't think losing the city will actually hurt us, since it wasn't doing all that much for our cause and it'll delay the other guys rebuilding buildings in it. However, it really was unintentional and I do apologise. I couldn't really have attacked much earlier, since although the defences of the city itself were rubbish, I've taken out significant mobile forces from Alex that I didn't dwell on the report. We'd be in a really strong position if we had a few more turns, but I guess that's the way of the game.

I guess now we wait and see what the other guys do, and whether any of them respond to my overtures below. I haven't committed us to anything other than talking, so if you disagree with the policies I've suggested then we can just refuse anything offered and nothing is lost. The paranoia comment to Culture is mostly a bit of subtle psychology, in the hope that they will think that since I'm saying that to them I'm probably saying exactly the same thing to the Space team, thus covering the fact that I really do want to talk to Space, whereas I don't care about Culture.

Culture team:

Spoiler :

Mostly trying to make the other guys paranoid, to be honest...
However, it really won't cost you anything at all to push the advantage against Alex a bit, and I'd be willing to offer something on our next turnset to your favour if you do. Nothing all that huge since it's so spectacularly easy, but still.

Space team:

Spoiler :

I fear that the Culture team is, or is going to, run away with this game. I think this will become even more obvious after the coming turnset, since I don't think the AIs built any wonders at all during my set, so we're going to be able to build quite a few, I'm afraid. I know there are at least three that they can build without researching anything, and I think the pictures from earlier speak to how easy it's going to be for them.

I'd therefore like to explore the possibility of making some common cause with you guys. I think that we are both served by a fast tech pace more than Culture are, so I did everything I could during my turn to speed it up, which I think went rather well. In additional, to show good faith, I spent a Great Scientist to build an Academy in Granada on my turn. What do you think? If there's anything you think we can do for you, ask, and we can discuss terms.

View attachment RBTS7 - Survivor AD-1000.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[timmy827]

T-Hawk:

Spoiler :

I am returning from business travel Thursday, have time to glance at it right now but not examine in detail.

Re domination offer: I doubt unless we can get them to run all artists in the legendary cities on their turnset we won't get anything in return that will help us as much as pressing on now will help them. A city w/o a religion would be nice but Alex doesn't have any visible.

Religions: Hopefully we'll pick up one more. What about founding a city to grab the fish (and hopefully a random spread of another religion) SW of Cordoba? As for the other cities, it seems like a good time to spread Buddhism and build temples/cathedrals, also Jewish monasteries in the legendaries for the sistine bonus.

Sistine: IIRC Sulei wouldn't be willing to trade Music even at Friendly if he was building it, so if we trade immediately Madrid should have it in 11 or so turns unless we're really unlucky with a GE pop.

Tech: Don't see any reason to not go straight for Liberalism.
One last thing - I didn't think to check GP situation, so if you see an opportunity there when you examine let me know.

Other Wonders: I'm pretty sure Colossus would help the others more than us. Any others you think are worth doing?

 

[T-hawk]

Unfortunately I can't examine the save at the moment - I haven't patched and I'm still playing Epic 20.

timmy827:

Spoiler :

Yes, straight to Liberalism after landing Music.

I agree - no need to offer domination anything for running artists. Artists are tiny potatoes as of yet; even with Sistine, 2 artists x 6 cpt x 20 turns = only 240 culture. That'll be less than one turn's worth in the later game.

New city: I say no. Any added territory helps the domination team. I think they're our real competition; they can roll over the AIs faster than our civ can research to space, especially by taking vassals. No need for a religious honeypot; the domination team will conquer more religions for us.

Wonders: Colossus could be worthwhile - not in Madrid but in the third city. Madrid will overshoot 50k before the other cities so the others need some serious wonder help. And the Colossus does expire and the space team is likely to push to Astronomy fairly soon. Your call. Sistine in Madrid definitely - we can't take any chance on losing it. Also, we definitely want Globe Theater in one of the legendarys, before it gets crowded out or somebody builds it elsewhere.

 

[Diamondeye]

LURKER: @ Space race team (who is UP now, rite?)

Spoiler :

I know the Domi team grabbed a Golden Age, so this might be hard, but how about grabbing Music and using the GA along with the next spawned GP to start another Golden Age? You'd be reeling in and have blocked a free great artist for Culture.

 

[darrelljs]

Well down, General Garath . I'm sure the Space team realizes that more land, especially early land, is their best bet to rip through the tech tree in a reasonable amount of time. I doubt any encouragement is necessary. Luckily those "we only need nine cities" culture peaceniks aren't up .

Garath:

Spoiler :

Seriously, very well done. Quite a bit accomplished in 20 turns, even if the next two sets don't show a lot of progress I'll have lots of troops lying around for a heavy advance. I'm not 100% sure that quid pro quo deals are in the spirt of our new rule set. To avoid even the appearance of impropriety, I would prefer to let natural synergies between victory conditions manifest themselves. I think we can give hints on what we think those are, but no need to use spoiler tags for that. What do you think, am I off base?

Darrell

 

[darrelljs]

Roster
Space 1 - Qwack (one turn swap with mostly_harmless )
Domination 1 - Garath (just played)
Cultural 1 - timmy827 (now up)
Space 2 - mostly_harmless (on deck)
Domination 2 - darrelljs (sharpening arrows)
Cultural 2 - T-Hawk (dancing ballet)

Darrell

 

[timmy827]

Domination 2 - darrelljs (sharpening arrows)
Cultural 2 - T-Hawk (dancing ballet)

Darrell

Hmmm, not the best analogy since in the world of Civ4 leaders, the ballet dancer is also a megalomaniac warmonger...

My turns are going to be a bit late, started tonight but as I got back from a long business trip I'm too tired to finish. Will be done tomorrow evening.

@Dominators:

Spoiler :

Sorry, at this point in the game there's nothing you can give us that would help us as much as running over Alex would help you.

 

[timmy827]

While we are a bit chagrined that the other teams couldn't see the wisdom of discovering Music first, we are happy at the luck that the only Friendly AI was the one to do so. So we of course jump at the chance to appreciate the finest thing in life:

Besides, what good are guys on armored horses if you don't know how to have trumpets blasting during their grand entrance?

War is so...uncivilized. Isabella takes some convincing as to why smiting heathens isn't in her interest, but eventually we get our way:

(all that happened was us killing a lone horse archer of his wandering near Pharsalos. Also, I merged the GG to make a medic 3 horse archer, there was nothing very useful we could do with him and I imagine this was what the dominators were intending.)


One new city was founded:

We also thought a big bronze statue would be inspiring, but it was not to be.

However, we did manage to get the absolute #1 priority of the 1st half of the game:

And once that was secure we were happy to show others the way of true enlightenment, especially since it could help us in the Liberalism race:

Soon afterwards a Scientist was born in Madrid who knocked off a lot of Education.

Also managed to spot a nifty brokering switcheroo:

That last one wiped the board clean, at the end of the turns no one was up any techs on us except for Hatty who had just been first to Divine Right (I also traded Wang Guilds for Engineering but missed the picture). That trade was of course for Notre Dame but Liz built it a single turn before Madrid became Paris.

Interesting times near the end as Alex declared on Liz and she came asking for help. After some thought I agreed to DOW Alex for diplo bonus (we earned a -1 demerit with Suleiman only, but he is still Friendly) since we had a bright shiny army tired of doing nothing at the only place he could attack. Of course I didn't take any offensive action. Alex scored an early success against England:

I moved our axe (which had been sitting around in England for a while) into the city, Alex won't attack until the defenses are down to 0 so it should be safe. It does have 1/3 of a move left if the next player wants to do something.

You can also see that we are at the cusp of Liberalism.

Some more practically-minded notes for the other players:
Again, we are AT WAR WITH ALEX but he has not moved anything near Pharsalos. The main army is still there and should be able to flyswat anything he can muster since he already sent his main offensive stack against England

Many cities were set to Wealth in a failed bid to land Liberalism during my turnset (be glad I didn't get the gold from Notre Dame until the last turn!), I imagine that the next player will want to change that. Lots of infrastructure was neglected for religion spreading and temple construction naturally. Also I focused workers on our legendary cities-to-be so the spacerinos will probably want to do some cottaging.

Begged gold from Sulei and Roosy during this round. Also was rejected by Zara.

The last round of trades knocked some AIs into WFYABTA. Can't really tell now due to our tech superiority and I forgot to note which ones.

Full list of wonders built in distant lands:
Univ of Sankore + Angkor Wat, Roosy
Colossus + Notre Dame, Liz
Pyramids, Alex
Apostolic Palace, Hatty (its Confucian)

 

[timmy827]

T-Hawk:

Spoiler :

Overruled you on that city, you would have agreed if you could've seen the save. As you can see in the picture it adds exactly 0 land tiles as Cordoba expanded at the end of my turnset to take the city tile anyways. Also, with Sulei Friendly I was willing to bet the Domination team would eliminate Alex and Liz before taking on anyone else, and literally every one of their cities was only Buddhist which we had already.

I hit gold in the best way too:

Literally the last possible turn for this to happen, Liz was going to drop her Buddhist missionary that very turn! (could have closed borders but thought that potentially stranding the army in Pharsalos/blocking reinforcements going there would be unfair to the dominators and spacers if they chose the way of the sword. I know that Liz would not be willing to reopen for a while but I don't know how long that lasts).

Whipped out one missionary and spread to Cordoba the last turn. When you get the game next you should be able to spread it around easily.

Jewish Cathedral in Seville, Buddhist one in Toledo (build instead of Jewish because I would be able to finish it with the copper bonus). We now have 9 cities with JewBuddhism and most of the temples in place, the new city is lacking both and Toledo needs a Buddhist temple. Sistine-powered Jewish Monasteries are up in the 3 legendaries as well.

Globe is 1/2 done in Granada (couldn't start it for a while as theatres had to be built). Now that the turnset is over, I'm somewhat worried that completing it will help the dominators more than us as they could ruthlessly draft it into the ground...

Garath:

Spoiler :

Ha, nothing important here, just more intrigue. However, I was wondering what changes you were referring to with horse archers in the patch - when I looked over the notes I saw that they lost there bonus vs. Trebs (but can still flank them) but didn't gain anything.

Roster
Space 1 - Qwack (one turn swap with mostly_harmless )
Domination 1 - Garath
Cultural 1 - timmy827 (inspired by entering the Renaissance to get back to practicing the Cello Suites)
Space 2 - mostly_harmless (up now)
Domination 2 - darrelljs (on deck)
Cultural 2 - T-Hawk

Just a reminder that we're still on 20 turns each.

 

[Garath]

Ah, that's rich. I could have built the Colossus in no more than 4 turns at any point during my turnset, and it got taken by someone else before the next guys could build it?

Oh, and thanks for the Medic 3, timmy. The general arose too late in my turn, and on entirely the wrong side of the empire, for me to do anything useful with him.

timmy827 (well, Culture in general, I guess):

Spoiler :

Yeah, I know the patch didn't really make much difference. But I was writing vaguely in the pretense that this wasn't a weird game, so I needed an excuse to do exactly what I would have done with or without the patch.

darrelljs:

Spoiler :

I'm not 100% sure that quid pro quo deals are in the spirt of our new rule set. To avoid even the appearance of impropriety, I would prefer to let natural synergies between victory conditions manifest themselves. I think we can give hints on what we think those are, but no need to use spoiler tags for that. What do you think, am I off base?

Yes, of course you're right. I'm sorry, I'd remembered that section of the old rules and not remembered the game style change should have changed that. I shan't do so any more. We probably aren't going to get taken up on the offer anyway, though, so hopefully it doesn't matter.

Anyway, I don't think the tech pace is such that anyone will have any more longbows on defense by your turn. So a few big-stacks-o-knights should be able to wreak some pretty good havoc, and you might well be able to get to Cuirassiers as well. Alex is likely to remain an easy target, but I think piling on England in the aftermath of this current war is likely to do more damage in the long run if you can muster the troops for it. I'm also a little worried that we might have enforced peace with Alex for the early sections of your turn depending on when mostly_harmless signs peace, which would mandate finding a different target.

Garath

 

[mostly-harmless]

Got it and will play now.

 

[T-hawk]

Sistine: , and Christianity too

Commentary on timmy827's turn:

Spoiler :

Hmm, lots of tech acquired there, we might want to consider turning off tech and running all-culture on our turns once we get to Free Speech. WFYABTA is fine for us, especially if done by buying cheap techs. The Liberalism free tech is a big prize to let the spaceheads direct, but if it couldn't be done it couldn't be done.

Yeah, the fish city definitely made sense.

I'm also hoping we can get to one of the culture corporations eventually; Sid's Sushi would be a nice addition. I think our civ will continue to pop GPs from Madrid pretty consistently, though which types are going to be pretty random. Conquering a corp works too if we can't found it ourselves.