RBTS7 - L'estasi Dell'oro

[Garath]

Darrell:

Spoiler :

Don't worry about it. Even if you lost a couple of cities at the end, you still managed to remove two AIs from the being a threat in a single turnset. Not bad going at all! I'm deeply impressed with that power graph, too.

I shall strongly consider taking an aggressive vassalization policy towards the two of them in my next turnset. It's quite likely I'll have some relatively outdated troops hanging around at the start of my set to spend on hitting them enough to capitulate them. On the other hand, if I can spare enough troops from the real front, eliminating them will provide more land towards Domination.

You've seen the tech situation more recently than I have. What am I likely to be fighting with in my next set? Cavalry and Rifles against Rifles? If so, those aren't good odds. It'll be tricky to make a huge amount of progress. If there are already going to be railroads by that point it might help, at least.

What we're really looking for is to make sure that on your next set you can swarm over the rest of the landmass with Gunships. Their movement is sufficiently unparalleled that they should be of great advantage in our current style of fighting.

Garath

 

[darrelljs]

Garath:

Spoiler :

Yup, you are thinking along the same line I am re: Gunships. I think you can use Calvary to take out Elizabeth and Alexander, and *maybe* get a little something going against someone else, but your turnset is going to be tough from a tech standpoint unless the space guys somehow get us to Assembly Line.

Darrell

 

[T-hawk]

Ugh ugh ugh. The four words you never want to hear from a Civ 4 player: I've got PC problems.

Symptom is that the machine cold powers-off during the Windows boot sequence. I'm pretty sure it's either power supply or video card. It's not heat, CPU, or memory: I can get into the BIOS screens, and see normality on the temperature monitors. Safe mode in Windows also seems stable. The power-off happens consistently just as Windows is about to switch from the startup screen to the desktop screen resolution.

I've had occasional power-offs over the past couple months, always while playing BTS, never at the Windows desktop or in other games (though Diablo 2 is the only other game I've played lately and that's not even 3D.) So things are pointing to the video card, which would be a bit of a painful replacement. Stay tuned, though I might have to pass off to timmy827.

 

[darrelljs]

The four words you never want to hear from a Civ 4 player: I've got PC problems.

Bummer...good luck getting it back up and running .

Darrell

 

[T-hawk]

Ok, update time. My machine also has onboard video, so I pulled the ATI Radeon card and booted up with that. Machine runs rock solid stable now, I can play Diablo 2 and a couple other games fine.

Civ 4 launches, and runs sluggishly but actually playable on the lowest graphics settings. Problem is, it can't load Darrell's 1550 AD save - crashes immediately. It can load the earlier RBTS7 saves from my last turnset, and seems to load my Epic 20 saves fine.

EDIT: I'm an idiot. Probably just need patch 3.17. Downloading it now, though the 160 MB (!) will take a bit and I don't think I'll finish 20 turns tonight.

 

[darrelljs]

Probably just need patch 3.17. Downloading it now, though the 160 MB (!) will take a bit and I don't think I'll finish 20 turns tonight.

Yup...it is a 3.17 save .

Darrell

 

[T-hawk]

I spent tonight on pre-game analysis, and will play tomorrow night. Some thoughts (no real need to spoiler tag):

Is Sushi at all reachable in 20 turns? We need six techs: Constitution, Corporation, Chemistry, Sci Meth, Biology, and Medicine. Even if I can trade for the first four, 100% research will still take 11 turns for Biology and 16 for Medicine. They total 11k beakers, so need 550/turn over 20 turns. But we can sustain nowhere near 100% research. In fact, we're in the red at TEN percent research right now, and that will get worse as English cities come out of resistance.

I'd need to pull about 500 gold/beakers per turn out of our heiney, and also have things go our way on a tricky 4-way brokerage and the Great Person coin flip. Well, I think I have to try; there's little lost if I don't make it. There's no wonders in the near future - reaching either Electricity or Democracy is questionable, and also building Statue or Broadway inside 20 turns won't happen - and I have no other immediate goals on the tech tree.

My ace in the hole might be a Golden Age, which is possible if Granada spawns anything but a scientist, though I can't get that until a few turns after a civics switch to Caste and Pacifism. (That Vassalage change is looking a bit gratuitous, Darrell - especially on your last turn, why not do it sooner? - but we'll roll with it.)

If I do make Sushi, it'll go in Toledo, to get that city an extra 40 turns of corporate culture, since nobody's going to spread it to the other two legendarys before our next turnset.

Regarding Great Artists, I think it's still correct to settle them. All three of the win horizons are still pretty far off. With two cathedrals and Hermitage in Toledo, that's 42/turn per artist even without Free Speech, meaning a payback horizon under 100 turns as compared to bombing, and this game will certainly last at least 100 more turns.

 

[timmy827]

Hmmm...I don't think it's quite that hopeless but my initial assessment was probably overstating our chances of getting there. I think that the end of war weariness, foreign trade from free market, representation, etc. will all make huge differences. Also remember the inherent 20% bonus so the true cost of the techs is more like a hair over 9k. And we have a ton of cities that can build wealth and run scientists . Like you said, nothing really lost if we don't make it.

As Darrell pointed out, the civics nonsense started with me. Reason: I traded for engineering halfway through, realized the only way to get Notre Dame completed was to go to Caste to squeeze out some more hammers from workshops then go back to Slavery to whip it. Unfortunately for me it was built by Liz, I think I revolted at the very beginning of the turn then saw the announcement I was not trying to screw over the following team, but I'll take blame; in retrospect I understand how it was easy to see it that way. Now that each team has been hit by this once, let's try and avoid it, especially if we decide to reduce the turn length.

 

[darrelljs]

timmy827,

Thanks for the clarification...I figured it was probably something like that, but I wasn't in a charitable/forgiving mood after just missing London and losing Athens/Sparta .

I was *very* happy to get the Great Merchant my turnset .

Darrell

 

[Qwack]

Err guys, bad news. It seems I will have to travel out of country for a while on Monday (I won't be back for at least a month and probably more), which only gives me time to play 1 more turn set... . Not sure what you want to do Darrell, I'm really embarrassed about leaving like this but I did not anticipate this situation coming up ...

 

[T-hawk]

I apologize for the lack of screenshots, but Civ 4 is barely at the limits of playability on my makeshift video card, and flipping over to Paint Shop Pro is painful.

Mission: Sushi​

First order of business is indeed to make peace with Elizabeth. If I somehow found myself in this spot in a solo cultural game, I would make peace immediately. London doesn't have any wonders, so won't contribute anything to our empire except more maintenance costs. Before peace, I do pillage with any units with available movement, especially the stack at Canterbury. Liz's only available peace concession is 4 gpt.

Unfortunately, we've got difficulty in the brokerage department. Liz is up to Cautious as Timmy projected, but won't trade because she thinks we're her worst enemy! We're at 0 relations, but she's at +3 or better with everyone else!

So now I've got to pull 11k beakers out of our nether regions by the end of my turnset. Granada resumes its long-delayed Globe Theater. Hermitage in Toledo. Complete Madrid's mostly-done Grocer, then start a Bank, since it'll be running merchants. Most non-Legendary core cities go to Wealth, though the English cities start or continue on courthouses. I find spots to complete our ninth Jewish temple and eighth and ninth Buddhist temples. I disband a handful of ancient units (axemen, spears) to get unit costs under control.

The Great General settles in Granada, because that's the Oxford city. This is the best move for cultural victory - he'll make 2 culture with Sistine and 9 beakers with Representation. Cancel Dyes import from Suleiman since we have our own now, and sell him the cow for cash instead. Also sell Sugar to Hatty for cash. Since I'm not actually researching Biology yet, keep research off for the moment and accumulate cash.

In the trading dept, I do as Timmy says and trade with Zara first, Mil Trad to get Sci Method.

Turn 1: Great, the brokerage is there: I can flip Sci Meth to Roosevelt for Constitution. I need Const now in order to open up Corporation from Suleiman.

Turn 2: YES, Timmy's analysis was spot on: Suleiman gives us Corporation for Mil Trad. This was a SPLENDID analyis - I wouldn't have realized that Corporation trading required a Friendly rival.

Also Liz will now trade too! She gives Chemistry for Mil Trad! That's all four legs of the brokerage! OK, the research way is clear to Medicine, just need to pull oodles of economy out of my butt now. Now I can start research on Biology, due in 10 turns at -257/turn. I've got 1180 in the bank so can get halfway there at 100%.

I also sell Mil Trad to Hatty for her 400 gold. She's far into WFYABTA and isn't going Friendly, so we won't be getting anything else out of her for it.

Turn 5: At long last I can change civics! Representation is immediately necessary. Free Speech obvomgwtfbbqftw. Pacifism because I need to pop two GPs fast for Golden Age and Sushi. Caste is not immediately necessary(*). Mercantilism vs Free Market is a very close call - we've got the Representation synergy and I need GPs, but Free Market is just too strong so I take it. So it's a four-way change to Rep/Free Speech/Pacifism/FM.

(*) Caste System is not immediately necessary. I have a few things still to whip with Slavery, and I can run enough specialists in Granada (5 artists with Globe Theater now) and Madrid without it (4 Merchants is the most I can do, else it will spawn a GP before Granada does.)

This launches me from -262 gold/+526 beakers to -268 gold/+800 beakers (!) Nearly doubles our net economy!

Turn 6: Granada is set for 5 artists, 1 engineer, and 1 priest, at -5 food deficit (it won't starve doing so.) It'll spawn me a GP in three turns (my turn 9) for a Golden Age as long as we don't hit 20% Scientist odds.

Nice - someone sent a Hindu missionary to Madrid. That's a fourth religion if we want it, though we'll need Org Rel to build either Christian or Hindu missionaries.

Roosevelt comes asking to restart our Defensive Pact. Like mostly-harmless, I say sure, why not. A turn later, Suleiman comes asking for the same! I say yes to him too - this kind of military bloc should deter any and all sneak attacks. I also realize to cancel our Corn import from Wang Kon (we conquered our own at Nottingham), and sell him the clams for cash instead.

Granada has finished Globe and Toledo Hermitage, and both start on their second cathedral.

Turn 9: Granada spawns a Great Prophet, who pairs up with the Scientist kindly left over from the dominators to start the 2-man Golden Age. What does this do to our economy? Actually not as much as I might've thought, only an extra 100 beakers, but that could well still mean the difference between sushi and tripe.

Turn 10: Biology has completed. Wow, we can get 3-for-1 brokerage value out of it: Roosevelt is still not WFYABTA and trades us Rep Parts for it, and friendly Suleiman even trades us DEMOCRACY for it. Enjoy, space team.

Research set to Medicine, due in, at 60% research at break-even... 8 turns! I'm going to make it! Everything hinges on the Great Merchant Lottery in Madrid now. I need a halftime break for some dinner now, but stay tuned...

 

[T-hawk]

We got Democracy. I decide to go for the Statue of Liberty in Barcelona, due in 22 turns; it won't complete on my watch. It's only 6 culture so isn't big for the legendary cities, and I have to assume the space team won't want to complete it there anyway. I do assume the space team will want to complete it in Barcelona; it gives an edge to both culture and space over the domination team.

Turn 11: I can complete that last whip I wanted to do: the Forbidden Palace in Nottingham. This will cut down our maintenance expenses in England considerably. (Even though I'm on pace to land Medicine in time, I've still got reason to goose the economy as much as I can on my turn set. You'll see.)

After that and a couple more courthouse whips, I can now go to Caste System to make sure Madrid runs max merchants. No other civics changes at this time. I do need to order up a few Work Boats to get sushi resources outside city radii. (Heh, the Heroic Epic in Madrid applies its bonus to a Work Boat. )

Turn 14: The moment of truth. Madrid's Great Person is due this turn, at 62% odds for a Merchant. (Actually I think it's slightly higher, since the merchants contribute their percentages this turn before the GP is spawned. I intentionally stopped a few points shy of the GP last turn in order to get one more turn of big merchant percentage.) Roll the bones...



YES!

Erm, wait a minute, Wang Kon is not us...?



YES!

Turn 16: I make one more set of civics changes, to Universal Suffrage / Slavery / Org Rel. The last is to start moving a few Christian and Hindu missionaries.

Turn 17: Medicine has come in - even three turns ahead of schedule!



I decided to found Sushi in Toledo, for a few reasons. One is that it still has a national wonder slot open so it can and will get Wall Street; it bugs my conscience too much to intentionally block Wall Street from the corp. Two, it's available to rush-buy executives while Madrid is busy with Hindu Missionaries and Granada is finishing its cathedral. Three, the +2 culture from the corp itself helps our trailing city.

Medicine is also a tradeable tech, for which Suleiman is willing to swap Rifling, and I go ahead on that. Enjoy, domination and space teams. Also, Wang Kon came up with 1000 gold out of nowhere, and I sell him Biology for that.

Last few turns held nothing interesting. Alexander broke free of Elizabeth, which means approximately nothing to our glorious cultural civilization. I stopped research and rush-bought executives and missionaries. Sid's Sushi, Christianity, and Hinduism are all spread to all three legendary cities.

Notes for next leaders (just in case someone might care to follow them ). With Sushi and Biology, our core cities are heavily over-fooded; next leaders might want to pave over some farms. Barcelona could really use some Sushi in order to keep growing while building the Statue. There's one more turn before civics revolt is available again; I expect the space team will almost certainly want Free Religion and probably Emancipation.

Toledo is at 2878 culture, making 208/turn, victory in 227 turns.

 

[T-hawk]

And a big ol' screenshot for the lurkers.

That's two full roster rotations completed. On another topic, I had a new idea about how to set up the rotation. How about keeping it at 20 turns per team, but split that 10 and 10 between the two team members? So it'd go like this, at 10 turns each:

Space 1 - mostly_harmless
Space 2 - Qwack
Domination 1 - Garath
Domination 2 - darrelljs
Cultural 1 - timmy827
Cultural 2 - T-hawk

That way each team gets enough time for enough continuity to actually get things done, but we rotate the roster more frequently so we each get a few more turnsets. Anyone like?

 

[timmy827]

Unfortunately, we've got difficulty in the brokerage department. Liz is up to Cautious as Timmy projected, but won't trade because she thinks we're her worst enemy! We're at 0 relations, but she's at +3 or better with everyone else!

AFAIK you are never the "worst enemy" at Cautious, even though her plusses are higher with others. The worst enemy status always just hangs over until the start of the turn after peace is signed. Well, I forgot one detail in my diatribe

Masterfully done, as usual

I like the roster idea as well. 20 turns for each is a long time, notice how my partner went from squeezing out the Parthenon to founding a corporation in two rounds

 

[Garath]

I like that turnset idea. It also makes it easy for Qwack to play some turns immediately before he goes.

Looks like a strong cultural set there. It's amazing how much the game shifts in each turnset. The technology differential in 40 turns between team slots, let alone between players, is huge. You've left our economy in a very strong positon for the Space guys. Let's see how far they can get with it!

Garath

 

[mostly-harmless]

Impressive, as always T-Hawk.
I am in favor of the turnset idea.
In fact, Qwack go ahead and play the next 10 turns before you have to leave, I will take the 10 after that.

mh

 

[darrelljs]

I am in favor of the turnset idea.
In fact, Qwack go ahead and play the next 10 turns before you have to leave, I will take the 10 after that.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Hate to lose you Qwack, its been a while since we were in an SG togther, but these things happen . MH, I'll leave it up to you on whether you want to draft a replacement or just play Qwack's turns for him.

T-Hawk,

You pulled off something I didn't think possible...that shaves dozens of turns off the time we have to hit the Domination limit or land the space ship...kudos !

Darrell

 

[Qwack]

Got it, will play 10 turns tommorow.

 

[darrelljs]

Got it, will play 10 turns tommorow.

Hmm...given you were gone for a month starting Monday I'm guessing this got lost in the chaos of moving. MH, that would make you up!

Darrell

 

[mostly-harmless]

Alright, I got it for 10 turns and will accept applications for Qwacks spot.
Any lurkers around willing to take us to the stars?
Obviously you will have to erase all knowledge about the other teams strategies from your mind.

mh