RBTS9 - Final Frontier

[T-hawk]

I made that goof the first time I saw it. Especially since we're also building war-planes.

Me too, I thought Olodune was complimenting our squadron-building capabilities. And my mind thinks of the other as "trade lanes", I spent a lot of time playing Freelancer.

Back to the topic, I found foreign trade routes not to be worth anything. Populations are lower than in standard civ, and there is no intercontinental bonus.

 

[ashain]

There is a starport building that can be built later on with a +50% trade route increase (built per planet) but with the 1 trade route per city, routes are generally a waste of worker turns imo.

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

Any objections to me revolting out of Pacifism? We're losing 8gpt (after handicaps), and gaining all of 1 hammer in Paradise. We'd gain 1 more hpt when Eden grows to size 3 (EOT91), and that's it for quite some time. This is currently the difference between breaking even at about 45% research, and breaking even at 60%. If I don't hear anything by 6PM (4:15 right now), I'm going to play on, and revolt.

 

[T-hawk]

+15% hammers means a bonus hammer at 7 base hammers, 14, and 20. Eden, Xanadoo, Chi Libra, and Rho Libra all reach 7 base hammers at size 3. Horus Taurus will after it hits 500 influence and builds a mining facility on the Earthlike planet. Paradise (with Monarchy) gets a bonus hammer from Pacifism at base hammer counts of 5, 11, and 17, so it'll get a second hammer as soon as it builds a mining facility.

I see the point, but I think you overestimate "quite some time". Within 40 turns, we'll be getting +7 hammers total from Pacifism for maybe twice the current cost. I think that's worthwhile, and the anarchy makes it clear to stay in Pacifism.

Any other opinions?

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

Ok, so I passed on the revolt on T-Hawk's advice.

A relatively quiet turnset; we make 2 more contacts, and found the Libras.
T83: Contact Lukas von Reuther of the Brotherhood. Nothing too interesting, but he is willing to trade at Cautious.
T84: I start a university in Paradise. It’s only 2 turns, and we make 37 commerce post-Monarchy.
T85: Contact John Richards of the Forge. I’ve put a sign where I found their incoming colony ship. I found Rho Libra, now Elysion, and start a university there.
Before the Forge claimed this system, now "The Anvil":

T88: Found Valhalla, formerly Chi Libra.

The current tech situation:


Possible trades:

We can also get 50GP instead of Survivalism and 5GP. However, Lu of the Avowers is #1 in score (he's got 3 systems, and has Military Academies on everyone). Lukas of the Brotherhood has no cash, but will grant us both techs for the map.

Especially if we want to build the starbase soon, I think we should probably pull the trigger on at least one of these deals. The Forge and the Avowers have not made contact with each other, so we could probably trade our map twice, first for Gravity Training + Survivalism from the Brotherhood, and then the next turn Military Academies + cash from the Avowers, if the Avowers will break their monopoly (which I can't tell without Gravity Training).

 

[T-hawk]

Avowers have 20 for iTechTradeKnownPercent, so no breaking a monopoly. I think that means he'll trade when 20% of his rivals know the tech, so two other civs have to get it too. I might suggest holding onto the map until we can get all three of Survivalism, Gravity Training, and Military Academies.

What system do we want to settle next? All the ones near our capital are pretty lousy. I think we should go for Rho Sagittarius, south of the two newest systems, size-2 Earthlike and size-3 white planet. (White planets are mediocre, but a size-3 one is worth nut/mining facilities and becomes one of the best planets in the system. If a white planet is like coast, an improved white planet is like lighthouse/Moai/Colossus coast and is well worth worthing.) Aquarius Hades next to it is also good with a size-3 2-2-1. And these two systems are also in the direction where we have our trade lanes and military activity going.

Xanadoo and Valhalla are building universities? For both, mining and nutrition facilities on the other size-3 planet (2-2-1 for Xanadoo, 1-1-7 for Valhalla) will get up to speed the quickest. (When selecting builds, make sure to consider all the planets! Mining facility doesn't show up if the first planet still has "buildings go here" selected.)

timmy827 <--- Up Now
Olodune <--- On Deck

 

[timmy827]

Wow, this is crusing. Will play late tonight or tomorrow morning, post quick thoughts for comments:

I agree with T-hawk's settlement priorities and will start colony ships as soon as that construction ship is done. Ditto on tech trade restraint.

Will leave Xanadoo on university since it's half done, Valhalla will get swapped to nutrient. Will also try to get a better picture of the lands to the SW of the capital.

Lukas and Lu are both in WHEOOHRN, but I'm assuming we're too far away to be the targets.

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

I wouldn't assume that we're too far away to be targets. I'm nearly certain that I've been attacked with how far Lukas is from us. Lu isn't that far away, although the nebula limits his options for attacking us.

 

[timmy827]

Fairly quiet. Built 2 colony ships for those southern worlds (2nd will complete next turn). Note that one colship and conship are unmoved, as their direction depends on which of those two we want first. Lu has been camping on Rho Sagittarus with that PDS for a while, I think he's too far away to settle but maybe that's an intent? The southern scout and PDS leaving Eden are the intended defenders.

John Richards and Korovin are both preparing for war now. Korovin now has Hours Leo, until this turn I'd been bomber-scouting it and there's a lone invasion ship there, so not too worried.

Starbase done in a few turns. When it is, some construciton ships building to Elysion could be recalled to hook up the resources quicker (the roads will be in place).

I screwed up the tech trades, thinking enough people had Mil Academies that I could all three techs for our map like T-hawk said - forgot that Lu is not in contact with Lukas, and so lost out there (made 1st trade with Lukas). Note that Lukas will trade Mil Academies for Synth Composites, which is not that lopsided with these cost discounts and is no longer a monopoly. We made no research progress as I had to save for the Starbase, but should be able to turn it back on and finish Streamlined soon.

Finally one new system within range (w of Chi Libra/Valhalla):

Again awkward since the highest-food planet is 1 pop, but still probably worth grabbing.

Have to run to work, so not a lot of pictures but there wasn't that much noteworthy.

EDIT: Order is Olodune -> T-Hawk, but perhaps they should swap since the latter will be gone the weekend?

 

[Olodune]

EDIT: Order is Olodune -> T-Hawk, but perhaps they should swap since the latter will be gone the weekend?

I'm fine with that. I won't post a Got-it until I can actually play (probably in 7-8 hours). If T-Hawk can play before then feel free to pick it up.

Good work with the Starbase -- I think you nailed the timing I can't check the save now, so no detailed comments, but: do we have a long term tech plan? I wouldn't mind assimilating a weak neighbor with a mix of alpha/delta units which would mean some planning. Still, I think a few more turnsets of pure building are in order.

 

[Olodune]

Xanadoo and Valhalla are building universities? For both, mining and nutrition facilities on the other size-3 planet (2-2-1 for Xanadoo, 1-1-7 for Valhalla) will get up to speed the quickest. (When selecting builds, make sure to consider all the planets! Mining facility doesn't show up if the first planet still has "buildings go here" selected.)

The only time we shouldn't open with mining/nutrition facilities is when the best location is in Influence level 1, in which case it's better to build something else while influence accumulates.

 

[T-hawk]

Crazy day, actually have to do work instead of reading Civ sites...

I can also play this evening. Olodune, if you can finish by about 11 PM Eastern time, let's do that and keep the roster in order. Else I'll call a swap and grab it myself. I'll be online over the weekend, just away from the Civ computer.

Yeah, starbase timing looks great. New system Horus Lambda looks good - even with a size-1 starter, the next two planets are (IMO) the best types at 2-2-1 and 1-1-6, and both at size 3.

The only time we shouldn't open with mining/nutrition facilities is when the best location is in Influence level 1, in which case it's better to build something else while influence accumulates.

Good general rule. An exception is if a factory will finish (once we get the tech) before any pop starts working a second planet.

 

[Olodune]

Crazy day, actually have to do work instead of reading Civ sites...

I've had that happen from time to time -- who knew

.......
Good general rule. An exception is if a factory will finish (once we get the tech) before any pop starts working a second planet.

Good catch.

Anyways -- "got it". I will play and post over the next few hours, so hopefully T-Hawk will have plenty of time. The main potential slowdown could be a DoW -- hopefully that can be avoided!

 

[Olodune]

Well, not completely smooth sailing but mostly a mostly successful turnset.

Loading the save I relocated a couple of citizens: 1 from 0/2/6->1/2/4 and 2 from 2/0/4->1/2/4. Both cases seem like easy upgrades to me, unless I'm missing something?

Some key events:

- The Avowers founded and adopted Power

- I lost the great system of "Rho Sagittarus" -- now known as RC-5 -- to the Avowers (with the camped PDS). So now they are both North and South of us The Colony ship that was going here is now headed towards the mediocre system of Thoth Theta -- likely the last system we will peacefully claim in the deep south.

- Founded Nirvana (on the other southern system, close to The Forge).

- I got demands from both The Forge and the Avowers for Synthetic Composites. Since both had their hands full and share a border with us I acceded. Which meant I could pull the trigger on this deal:

Timmy left me a nearly finished Starbase with nearly the exact number of needed Construction ships, so we now have +3 happy/health in connected cities

I also met the "real" Halis Planned State, founders of Survival and doing much better than their orange cousins.

Upon meeting the last Civ (AstroTech), I got a bit of a surprise:

They are at war with the Syndicate! This means we are safe for now, I think. Hey Timmy remember that Syndicate system defended by a single invasion ship? Yeah ... not a good plan:

I've built a few more bombers, so we have plenty of scouting opportunities. Anticipating the happy cap, Paradise built a Nutrition Facility and is nearly finished with our first Factory:

A current map of Paradise (we are back in the score lead for now too):

T-Hawk has several decision to make:

-Which tech to pick up next? -- I selected a placeholder.
-Allow Paradise to grow or build another Colony Ship? -- I think we want to grow first.
-If Paradise should grow what shall we build there? -- I'm thinking perhaps an Academy of Knowledge and a Habitation System on our +4 food world.

Good luck!

 

[Olodune]

A few more things:

-We have a monopoly on Streamlined Production, but New Earth had Domestic Development already.

-We will want Oxygen (+3) health and Crystals (+3 happy). Both are close to Horus Taurus, but not within range of a single starbase.

-Keep an eye on WHEOOH ... Every civilization is in WHEOOH except for New Earth ...

Edit: In fact we are the likely preferred target of several, so perhaps a revolt out of Knowledge is an option? Or building a military unit or two.

 

[T-hawk]

Loading the save I relocated a couple of citizens: 1 from 0/2/6->1/2/4 and 2 from 2/0/4->1/2/4. Both cases seem like easy upgrades to me, unless I'm missing something?

-If Paradise should grow what shall we build there? -- I'm thinking perhaps an Academy of Knowledge and a Habitation System on our +4 food world.

These are related. The dynamics of food are considerably different than standard Civ. Regular Civ is mostly about working sustenance food, with a small surplus to keep pace roughly with adding health and happy factors. Final Frontier has much smaller food requirements for sustenance, but much larger requirements (nearly 7x considering no granaries!) to grow each population point. Food doesn't support citizens so much as "build" new citizens. Getting back to reality, a hab system on our homeworld at Paradise will add lots of food, of course. Is that food really helpful for fast growth, or will it just crash into the caps sooner? I honestly don't know and that's why timmy827 is on board.

2-0-4 vs 1-2-4 is the same problem writ small. In regular civ, 2-0-4 would win, since the 1 food converts to ~2 hammers via whip (assuming granary) and the city grows larger in the meantime pre-whip. FF doesn't have the whip until late, and food growth costs are so high that 2 hammers towards a building is likely to build more production than 1 food towards the next growth. But it's not at all a no-brainer, and depends a lot on the productivity of the next citizen and building in question.

They are at war with the Syndicate! This means we are safe for now, I think. Hey Timmy remember that Syndicate system defended by a single invasion ship? Yeah ... not a good plan:

! Who says the AI can't war in this mod?

-Which tech to pick up next? -- I selected a placeholder.
-Allow Paradise to grow or build another Colony Ship? -- I think we want to grow first.

Short-term, I say Academy of Knowledge while growing, then I'll figure it out from there. I am leaving work now, will play in a few hours.

Tech, I think Domestic Development is the clear leader, as both a military and development techs, with both banks and &#916; defense ships to stop any nosey AIs.

 

[timmy827]

I guess next build at capital depends on expansion; it seems there are some worlds to the west still worth grabbing (I'm assuming the colship in Eden is for Horus Lambda).

I've got just a brief window here between work and fun, so no time for a dissertation on the food mechanics.

Let's assume we get Paradise to the current happy cap of 8. Then a hab complex lets us put another person on 4/2/3 instead of the 2/2/2 in the 3rd ring. (assuming the first seven are on our first-ring worlds). 2f 1c per turn for 80 hammers is (slightly) better than Recycling Plant and better than 150 H nutrition facility on the 1/1/7 world.

However, if we decide to grow the capital I think a hab complex is worth it; we will eventually want to grow even more with the other happy resource and it will take lots of food. I would go Academy first though, and to be honest with all the war-planning a couple more squadrons may be a prudent choice as well.

 

[T-hawk]

Pre-flight check:

The tech choice is Domestic Development, though there's no reason not to just stick to the 0% phase of binary science at the moment, and every reason to do so with more science multipliers coming soon (at least an Academy of Knowledge at the capital.)

It pains me to leave Eden at size 4 building colony ships with the caps newly increased, but it's the right thing to do. Eden's pop cap is only 6, and it will have time to grow later once the land-grab is done.

Valhalla switches to a factory. It is hitting the situation described above - its first 3 pop all work on the starter planet, which it will not outgrow until 18 turns from right now. So it doesn't need a booster facility until then; a factory can pay off sooner (12 turns to build) and the nut facility will still complete right on time. Nirvana is in the same state and is correctly doing a factory first.

Military report: We have 4 bomber squadrons. I am not worried. Planetary Defense ships are insanely cheap (15 hammers) - any threatened system can pop out one or even two between sighting a invasion stack and the actual combat. Those plus the bombers should be enough to fend off any stack the AI is capable of mustering.

===============

Horus Taurus built another construction ship (it can't grow until trade lane connection for the resources.) Then it started a mining facility on the orange planet. I was wrong about saving this for the Earthlike planet in third ring. HT's first 6 pop will go on the starter planet (2-2-1 base / size 1), Earthlike planet (3-1-2 / 2) and orange planet (1-2-3 / 3) no matter what. But putting the facility on the size-3 orange planet gives +3 hammers as compared to +2 on the Earthlike planet. Also, this mining facility pays back quicker than a factory. 3 base hammers + 15% from Pacifism = 3.45, paying back the 90 cost in 26 turns. Factory costs 70 and adds 15% to the (soon) base 12 = 1.8 hammers, payback in 39 turns, plus the health penalty.

Xanadoo built a factory (already has 2 mining facilities and no good planet for a third.) Elysion also built a factory (faster payback than a mining facility on a planet of only size 2.)

Thoth Theta was founded, now Avalon. It starts a mining facility on its size-3 blue (0-2-5) planet. The size-2 Earthlike will provide enough food - actually that one planet can more than enough to max the system's population (8 vs 6.)

Pirate PDS appeared at Valhalla, defeated with one bomber strike then suiciding against our PDS. (It did not move onto a warp lane; I would have counterattacked if it had.)

Paradise built a second University and second Academy of Knowledge. With it now growing to get full population on the gems planet, this is the best thing we can do to push research.

Found a window for good tech trades so I jumped on it. Streamlined Production was no longer a monopoly, so we flipped it to Lukas for Domestic Development, and to Lu Tianqu for Ship Manufacturing, his map, and 120 cash. That last is a beaker deficit but not by a whole lot, including the cash, and getting the map of the leading civ is worthwhile.

I then signed Open Borders with everyone who would accept which was Brotherhood, Avowers, and Forge. Bombers went scouting through everybody's systems. A tip: bombers can rebase even into unrevealed tiles. Mouse around and the tile will light up and show "Air capacity 0/4" if there is a star there!

Tech placeholder set to Empowered Citizenry. Discussion is welcome. We can go for builder techs at Empowered Citizenry (Sports Arena, happy building) - Terrestrial Networking (allows a building that's +2 commerce on a planet), or do something on the military lines.

We are on top of the scoreboard!

 

[T-hawk]

If we are going to continue pushing for expansion, I think west is the way to go. The decent systems in that direction are Tau Hades and Libra Epsilon. Eden doesn't have a particular destination in mind for the colship under construction.

It's also the direction where we can claim another +3 health resource, although I'm not sure whether to do it at the isolated oxygen (silver icon) closer, or to go farther but get more resources.

sooooo <--- Up Now
Cyneheard / Mojo <--- On Deck

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

The closer oxygen: We have gold and oil already, we don't need a second copy. Trading to the AI is really silly; wth would we give an AI +3 happy for a few gpt? We could trade the oil, but I don't think it's worth the extra worker turns. They're not going to have second copies of resources that we need. We could trade the oil to Lu, if we've got a connection, since his BuildUnit probability is only 15.
I'm glad that the Avowers were the ones to get Power. Of all the AIs, I'm least worried about them building a crazy military to threaten us with. Since we didn't prioritize Power, we weren't going to get it.

Tech: Hm. Sports Arena are tempting; the extra happy is really nice, especially since gems aren't that close. If Religion hasn't been founded, I think we should go for it. If not, though, Terrestrial Networking. The Commercial Satellites that they'll unlock are great. (I assume that we've finished Domestic Development, and therefore have unlocked Banks? If not, that's the priority: a bank or two in Paradise is huge).

I won't be able to play until Monday afternoon/evening. If sooooo plays sooner, and we want to keep the game going, a swap or a skip is fine.

We should push colony ships, though, since now's the easiest time to claim systems. The AIs will be taking those systems very shortly if we're not quick about it. And we're not anywhere near being able to field a competent offensive military. If the AI camps a PDS over a world, then they've got a Colony Ship en route. Only war or being really, really fast will get us the system, once that happens.