RBTS9 - Final Frontier

[T-hawk]

How do the "doctrine" civic alternatives to Pacifism work? Does the hammer cost of a battleship actually come down from 225 to 180, or is it +20% when building battleships? The first is a lot more attractive than the second. (effective +25% that multiplies with boni from factory/mech labor/monarchy, as opposed to a +20% that adds with the other mods).

Yes, the cost actually comes down. And it takes effect instantly, so if you adopt the civic right before finishing a ship, it's as if you had it in effect all along. Halis could really abuse this, bouncing back and forth between Pacifism for the hammer bonus and one of the Doctrines to complete the ships.

Double-revolt now to Mech Labor and Light Ship Doctrine isn't a bad idea. Building a few Destroyers with LSD (heh heh) could be worthwhile, as escorts for the conships building starbases and roads. Destroyers are useful to have in conquest stacks as well. One use is to attack something one tile away from your main stack (after bombing it) then return to the stack.

 

[T-hawk]

One concern: By my calculations here, doing two civic changes at once will incur a second turn of anarchy once we have 15 cities. FF doesn't change the map size or game speed factors, and as far as I can tell it still counts as an ancient era start. So we might need to double-revolt sooner rather than later.

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

I don't think it is ancient era start. When I load regular Civ IV after playing FF (and I just double-checked), the game wants me to start in the modern era. So a double-swap at 15 cities would then be:
(1 + 2 + 15*7/100)*0.34 = 4.05*0.34 = 1.377. We'd have to build close to 40 systems for a double-switch to cost us 2 turns.

Now, if it's modern era, then why are the AIs so far behind us? With their -5% per era modifiers, on 60% base, their costs are only 35%! Immortal is 55% base, -6% per era, for 25% of our costs, and Deity is 50% base, -7% per era for 15 percent. The easiest way to prove this: See what a triple-switch would do with 14 systems or less. If it's 2 turns, then we're in ancient era mode. If it's 1 turn, then we're in a modern era start.

 

[T-hawk]

I peeked at the save. 3 civics would take 2 turns now (we don't actually have a third civic available to select, but can mouse-over one after picking one in the first two columns), so it is an ancient era start.

Also you can tell whether a system has been claimed. Double-click on it and look to see whether all the planets have their original names, or if one has gotten renamed to some civ's star name. That planet will also reflect the production from free nut/mining facilities. Gamma Ares is already claimed, there is a planet named Vengeance with 3-3-1 production that does not occur in nature. Lambda Cancer is still open.

Also, let's not get over-excited about spreading Religion. 40 hammers for an advocate plus 35 for a temple is not cheap for +1 happy. A second Sports Arena (80h) is only minimally less efficient especially considering it doesn't require hammers from a less mature system.

 

[Olodune]

Also you can tell whether a system has been claimed. Double-click on it and look to see whether all the planets have their original names, or if one has gotten renamed to some civ's star name.

Neat, and good to know.

Also, let's not get over-excited about spreading Religion. 40 hammers for an advocate plus 35 for a temple is not cheap for +1 happy. A second Sports Arena (80h) is only minimally less efficient especially considering it doesn't require hammers from a less mature system.

Hard to argue with that, but at least we do have 3 ~75-90 hammer options for getting +1 happy down the road. We'll see if that is a useful option ...

 

[timmy827]

Now, if it's modern era, then why are the AIs so far behind us? With their -5% per era modifiers, on 60% base, their costs are only 35%! Immortal is 55% base, -6% per era, for 25% of our costs, and Deity is 50% base, -7% per era for 15 percent. The easiest way to prove this: See what a triple-switch would do with 14 systems or less. If it's 2 turns, then we're in ancient era mode. If it's 1 turn, then we're in a modern era start.

IIRC the "per era" total is multiplied, not subtracted, with the base modifiers for difficulty, so in our game, 60% base * 75% for 5 eras = 45 % instead of 35%.

Not that it isn't still mind-boggling how they don't do better, although the lack of AI expansion in this mod is weird. I think normal-civ deity, the extra settler/workers and worker techs are more important than the cost discounts.

 

[timmy827]

Quiet but productive. Most of our core worlds now spot one or two commercial satellites, and our net GNP has roughly doubled in 10 turns

Did get Lambda Cancer, and last (?) colship will be at Gemini Pi shortly. Crystals hooked up, Oxygen starbase done and Extractor in progress, but ran into a snag with the strategic resources:

This is enormously aggravating, definitely a "screw you" move - as you can see, absolutely no signs of the construction ships to improve and connect the resources Did not head towards alternate starbase locations for either of those resources,( not sure they're worthwhile at one per starbase and had no ships in good position); sadly had built a couple of conships from core worlds that basically did nothing useful because of this snag.

Mech Labor came in on last turn. Would be one turn to revolt to Light Ship + Mech Labor, we can discuss.

In diplo world - only two AI's have Shock and Awe, not able to trade yet but hopefully by the time Space Elevator is done. The Kanji's are each in one war with Raul and Hector, Raul took one world from the respectable yellow Halis. Keep checking for map sales, but it's mostly scouted now so this is probably the last set for that.

I had bombers jumping around the last few turns to deal with barbs (all clear now), perhaps one or two should scout over the route to the crystals to make sure that's not cut; although the barb AI seems much more likely to use roads to suicide faster against PDS instead of causing real problems by pillaging.

Up: Olodune
On deck: T-hawk

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

So when we go to war, our first target can be red. And we'll throw 10 bombers at the starbase, and kill it dead.

 

[T-hawk]

This is enormously aggravating, definitely a "screw you" move - as you can see, absolutely no signs of the construction ships to improve and connect the resources

We just stole somebody's Crystals, so we can't complain there The AI can't plan ahead to build roads and resource improvements on tiles that are not within its territory yet. As soon as the starbase was complete, it probably sent another conship from home and it will get there eventually. We can keep the starbase cut off from actually supplying resources by pillaging the lanes in neutral deep space. If your extra conships want something to do, they can build an extra lane link around the southeast corner in prep for that. But we'll have plenty of work for conships to do when Jump Lanes arrive.

I think other resources are worthwhile even at one per starbase - this game still has a while to go - although it's probably easier to just take this one by force.

Mech Labor came in on last turn. Would be one turn to revolt to Light Ship + Mech Labor, we can discuss.

Another option is to hang on to Pacifism for the moment, but change from Monarchy to Democracy instead. I'll look at the save later to offer an opinion. +3 happy (as Representation) more than makes up for Mech Labor. And cash rushing is somewhat useful for conquest, buy PDSes as you conquer instead of having to bring them along.

 

[Olodune]

So when we go to war, our first target can be red. And we'll throw 10 bombers at the starbase, and kill it dead.

nice.

I'm not sure it will actually cause us very many problems though -- the Avowers may be a better first target. Oh and good job doubling our GNP, Timmy. At least now you've established the benchmark that we can measure your future turnsets against

"Got it", but I won't be able to play until this evening.

Edit: Cross-post with T-Hawk -- interesting idea with Democracy, I'll need to check the save for that one.

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

We'll probably have a second revolt in the not-too-distant future when we get Industrialism or Green Economy if we're outgrowing our systems, so we could consider taking Democracy then.

We've got other options than giving up 45-50 beakers and 10hpt from Monarchy.
Sources of +1 happy, after the obvious Sports Arena #1:
Sports Arena #2: 80H
Temple of Religion #1: 40 + 35H (And we can build Advocates in Paradise now if we want)
Temple of Religion #2: 70H
Knowledge Advocate: 40H

 

[Olodune]

We've got other options than giving up 45-50 beakers and 10hpt from Monarchy.
Sources of +1 happy, after the obvious Sports Arena #1:
Sports Arena #2: 80H
Temple of Religion #1: 40 + 35H (And we can build Advocates in Paradise now if we want)
Temple of Religion #2: 70H
Knowledge Advocate: 40H

They are options, but as T-Hawk insinuated earlier these are not great hammer->happy conversions (basically comparable to a non-spiritual temple in standard Civ4). With the crystals I don't actually think any of our planets will hit the happy cap just yet.

The Rush-Buy option associated with Democracy would be more useful if we were going for conquest/domination rather than Ascension, so sticking to Monarchy is probably better.

 

[Olodune]

Another builder turnset, although I did start a few military builds.

It will be a while yet before Democracy is the way forward, but I did do a civics swap:

Leaving Pacifism saved ~20 credits per turn, which will increase with time.

I settled three more systems, and built ~6 more conships in preparation for jump lanes:

Several barbarians threatened our warp-lane network in the fog -- one destroyer managed to take down a piece too

To combat this I recalled a few bombers who had been scouting the AIs lands, and have built a few (cheap) alpha destroyers to patrol the dark. Losing a segment of our crystal connecting route would be particularly annoying. Jump lanes should help

Both Halis' are involved in shooting wars, btw:

At the moment we are climbing clear of our competitors scores -- in all likelihood we can achieve our VC peacefully, but a single war should remove all doubt.

We have a monopoly on Terrestrial Networking and Space Elevators -- commercial satellites are really strong, powering us to a convincing lead in the Demographics:

A quick note for T-Hawk:

Avalon will be reconnected to our trade network next turn, so check the citizen assignment on t161.

Most systems should probably switch over to military builds soon if we want war. We have delta fighters and bombers available now. (And we are #1 in soldiers, somehow )

Amazingly, there are still a couple systems we could settle -- but they are a little difficult to reach. I have a Colony Ship queued up, but that can be switched if desired.

 

[T-hawk]

Got it. Don't think we need much discussion so I'll play later tonight. (Third turnset in a row where Olodune and I play on the same day. ) I will get some battleship builds going so sooooo can pick a target.

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

Power rating: Well, like the regular civ game, each unit generally gives its value in k soldier points. But bombers are worth 8k in power, and delta bombers worth 12. So according to this logic, an alpha bomber is more valuable than a Delta PDS or Delta Invasion ship.

Also, every single tech is worth 6k in power points. I assume pop works the same way as in the regular game. Since we've got more systems than anybody, and the population demographic drastically overvalues vertical growth, we've probably got more from that as well.

Where we really run away from the AIs, however, is from buildings.
Nutrition Facilities, Mining Facilities, and Mag-Lev Networks are all worth 2k soldiers. Merely founding a 5-planet system gives us 14k power points.

Plans going forward: With Delta Invasion ships coming in soon (and Omega PDS don't come until Commerce Theory, 2 techs past Terrestrial Networking), we've got plenty of time to fight at even-or-better.

 

[Olodune]

.... and Mag-Lev Networks are all worth 2k soldiers. Merely founding a 5-planet system gives us 14k power points.

Aha, good catch.

 

[T-hawk]

A note on jump lanes - It's better to build new jump lanes alongside existing warp lanes, rather than just upgrading the latter. It takes the same 3 conship turns either way (same as railroads, actually, except there is no Steam Power), but provides access to more tiles and redundancy in case of pillaging.

Inherited turn - Switch Paradise to Capital Shipyard to get started on battleships right away. Elysion also gets a capital shipyard as the next best place for it; it's not a huge commerce system and has happy/health headroom for the moment so doesn't need those facilities. Xanadoo got a cap shipyard too a bit later.

Eden kept cranking construction ships. First in order to starbase the iron right next to it (and next to Vlad's starbase); the timing will be just about right to have the iron online as we start to build Δ invasion ships. Then just because it doesn't have anything else it needs to build and it's almost at its pop cap anyway.

We finished scouting essentially the entire map, which I sold around. Not really sure what to do with the squadrons each turn now. I assigned them more or less one to each border system and just had them recon their immediate vicinity.

A couple turns ago, I spotted a colony ship from Lu Tianqu heading towards this system. Now there is no colony ship or colony and a damaged pirate invasion ship. And one of its planets is named RC-8! We could build a colship from Horus Taurus to claim it. It's junk at the moment (5 pop total), but could be worthwhile with Green economy.

Anyway, we discovered Capital Ship Focus, then I set research to 0%. We can burn off the cash in the same 5 turns it took to accumulate. What to research next? Choices:

- Squadron Focus for Δ Destroyers and Squadron Doctrine. Unexciting. Leads to Intuitive Computers (Slave State), also unexciting.

- Industrialism for manufacturing plants and Industrial Economy (-2 health, +15% hammers). Leads to Doomsday Weapon which is probably not where we're heading. Not needed for Ascendancy victory.

- Environmentalism for research labs and Green Economy (-20% commerce, +1 pop limit on all planets). Leads to Commerce Theory (more banks) and Utilitarianism (Utopia civic, -15% hammers and commerce, +1 food on all planets.)


Our military, including builds that will finish this turn, stands at 8 Δ invasion ships, 6 bombers, 1 fighter, 1 cruiser, 1 carrier. I congregated them towards Eden in the middle of the empire to decide what to do next. Eden is also where our jump-lane network is radiating from. We have battleships just shy of completion in Xanadoo, Elysion, and Paradise. We could adopt Capital Ship Doctrine to get a discount on them (excess hammers will overflow), but my gut says it's not worth the anarchy as we won't build many more if any. If we could get a freebie switch I'd do it, but we own 16 star systems so 2 civic changes take 2 turns.

Of course, the big question is who to attack. These are choices:

- Red Syndicate. He's got that annoying starbase in our middle, and his capital is within reach past our crystals starbase. I just sold him Terrestrial Networking this turn for pennies (he was almost done). He does not have Shock and Awe so no battleships on defense.

- The Forge. This fits best logistically, with three good size systems just off our south. Plus I've been building most of our invasion ships near there. He does have Shock and Awe though.

- The bad Halis. He's weak with only two systems. His capital is just off Xanadoo in our southeast, but the second system isn't really reachable. Doesn't even have the prerequisite for Shock and Awe.

- Avowers, our strongest rival. He's in the south between Forge and the bad Halis. Lots of systems to conquer; we would start with the lesser ones and finish at the capital. No Shock and Awe.

 

[T-hawk]

Big screenshot with potential attack vectors indicated:

sooooo <--- Up Now
Cyneheard / Mojo <--- On Deck

 

[timmy827]

I like the idea of going after Lu, win the game in convincing fashion by bashing our closest competitor. We could use the three nearby Forge systems as a "test run" too though.

Green Economy sounds really good, so I vote for Enviro as next tech.

 

[Olodune]

I would also like to go after the Avowers, but would probably pick off fake Halis first (Forge is a reasonable option as well).

I think the Green economy is actually worth it. -20% commerce is a stiff penalty but allowing more population onto our best worlds should make up the difference fairly quickly... Health and Happy caps are getting tight, however.