RBTS9 - Final Frontier

[T-hawk]

We traded for DD. I agree on bank at Paradise next, maybe two. If we aren't going to turn on research before the bank completes, then switch to bank now and pause the academy.

Empowered Citizenry is the prerequisite for Terrestrial Networking. I meant that we could go through those two builder techs now, or choose something along military lines.

Soon we'll have to decide whether it's worthwhile to keep colonizing all the junk systems near home, or start building military instead. Regular Civ has several methods to make marginal terrain worthwhile later in the game, with improved tile yields (Rep Parts and Biology) and corporations. I don't see any such factors in Final Frontier, except for Environmentalism civic (+1 food on every planet!) Are we heading there?

 

[Olodune]

Nice set.

I think we should also give some thought towards getting crystals -- I see the Avowers took the resource north of Horus T. What about a SB on the crystal beyond Space Harbor? Starbases are very strong tactical elements in addition to resource grabbers so I'm somewhat comfortable building one in contested regions.

Religion has not been founded so heading there makes sense -- if we get it we'll have access to two fairly cheap happy buildings.

And I guess we should colonize the junk, unless we want to go to war soon

 

[timmy827]

Empowered Cit for now, and head west. Lambda Cancer also looks good if we can grab it although that's past this turnset.

I like Olodune's idea of the eastern gems starbase too

 

[Olodune]

Btw, do starbases connect resources if they are built directly on top of one?

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

I'm nearly certain that they don't, you still need the extraction facility.

 

[T-hawk]

Btw, do starbases connect resources if they are built directly on top of one?

Not automatically, you still have to (but can) build the extraction facility and road connection underneath the starbase.

I like the idea of swiping Crystals. There's one conship starting a road that direction already (about 7 tiles east of Paradise) but it'll take a long time to get there.

 

[sooooo]

OK, here's what I did this turnset:

Finished the academy and built 2 banks at Paradise on the two 3-pop planets.

Built mining facility at Elysion.

Founded Olympus:



Built a habitation system on Nirvana's 3-pop 3/3/2 planet. That's because the other planets are low-population so building improvements on them doesn't seem that useful - better to increase the population of a planet that already has some nice buildings on it methinks.

I sent another construction ship to help build the road to the crystals.

We finished Empowered Citizenry - I put 0% science into Territorial Networking and traded our map for Shield Generation:



Here is the west:



Ideally I'd like to settle all 4 Gemini Pi, Tau Hades, Libra Epsilon and Gamma Virgo. And also Lambda Cancer further west too!

Gemini Pi might look a bit rubbish but I think it's decent. It has two 3-pop planets in the first ring. They might not be amazing planets, but still if the pop is concentrated on just 2 planets it saves hammers on improvements.

I have 3 colony ships in production, including one at Paradise. There is one of our colony ships already there too. However, there is an AI settler party on its way to the area. We can beat the AI to any site. I originally thought that they were heading to Gemini Pi, so I was planning on settling that one with the colony ship. However, their advance PDS seems to be heading further north. Suggestions of what to do with our colony ship needed.

 

[T-hawk]

Finished the academy and built 2 banks at Paradise on the two 3-pop planets.

That's fine. Generally, it doesn't matter what planets get buildings that aren't planet specific. There is a very small reason to spread such buildings out to smaller or unused planets: nuclear weapons destroy an entire planet at a time. But the AIs had better never get near nuking Paradise.

Built a habitation system on Nirvana's 3-pop 3/3/2 planet. That's because the other planets are low-population so building improvements on them doesn't seem that useful - better to increase the population of a planet that already has some nice buildings on it methinks.

Yeah, I haven't quite figured out how useful hab facilities are. Obviously in a full system you build them to turn a pop point producing 0-0-0 into something very good like 3-3-2. I'm not sure how well they pay back for non-full systems; it's good to turn (say) a 2-0-3 producer into 3-3-2 but I'm not sure how the payback period compares to a more direct improvement. This will serve as a good test case.

Can't look at the save right now so no suggestions on colony ships.

Do we have a conship getting ready to start the oxygen (silver icon) starbase in the west? Looks like we have the cash for it.

Cyneheard / mojo <--- Up Now (Monday night is fine)
timmy827 <--- On Deck

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

I'll be playing tomorrow. Certainly if we're making +92gpt at 0% science we have room for more expansion: our systems seem to be growing quickly enough (double the surplus from 7 turns prior? Nice. ).

The AI will redirect their colony ship if we settle ahead of them, so I'm more concerned about targeting the worlds we want, than the ones the AI are about to take, since we'd just trade the world we steal for the world that we actually wanted.
Gemini Pi: the 2 worlds look to be the yellow 2/2/1 and the white 2/0/3. I don't know which one we'd get the default nut + mine on, since they're equal food, but my guess is it would be the innermost one, which is the 2/2/1 . Yeah, this system will run out of room relatively quickly, but a future of 4 pop each on 3/3/4 and 3/1/6 is well worth it.
Gamma Virgo and Libra Epsilon look like they're somewhat bigger, but I can't tell if one's better than the other. I'd lean towards taking Gamma Virgo first, then taking Libra Epsilon 2nd, and Gemini Pi last. GP's the easiest for us to take by force later, and we can grab it the fastest. Fortune favors the bold.

Also, I'll probably build a Destroyer and put it on Colony Escort duty. It'll be useful as an interceptor later anyways.
Who founded Religion?

 

[timmy827]

I would settle in the order Tau Hades -> Libra Epsilon -> Gamma Virgo -> Gemini Pi; LE is clearly the best but for reasons of logistics/connection TH first makes sense.

 

[Olodune]

Yeah, I haven't quite figured out how useful hab facilities are. Obviously in a full system you build them to turn a pop point producing 0-0-0 into something very good like 3-3-2. I'm not sure how well they pay back for non-full systems; it's good to turn (say) a 2-0-3 producer into 3-3-2 but I'm not sure how the payback period compares to a more direct improvement. This will serve as a good test case.

I'm a bit surprised with how weak Hab Systems have been -- I think this is partly due to our leader choice. Having free influence means we avoid the decision of when to build a 'monument'.

In my test game I played as the Halis Planned State, which not only doesn't get the free influence but also gets -50% influence as a leader trait. In that game Hab Systems were much more competitive with alternative build options.

I like Timmy's settlement plan. Lets hope we get all four

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

Um...I need team input. It's T137, and this just popped up:
Hector Alvarez wants to be our vassal. He doesn't have any techs that we need. He had 2 systems as of a turn or two ago.



The +1 happy would be nice, but IMO I don't think it's worth the diplo headache or increased maintenance costs (which aren't cheap; we're currently at about 47% science at break-even, although that should improve with time). There's been no sign of wars among anybody. I barely have any experience of dealing with vassals, so I'd like some input.

Accept or decline?

 

[T-hawk]

It's tempting, mostly for the happy cap increase, that's worth the maintenance. But I'd decline, mostly because of the diplomatic headaches (both the direct -1 and the indirect effect of averaging attitudes.) At two systems, he'll never have enough power graph rating to consider declaring war on us. I typically take voluntary vassals only when I'm targeting a domination win, just to speed things up, and that's not our intent here.

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

Ok. So with 2 votes against, and 3 abstentions, I'm going to decline and keep the game moving. Also, we're going to get a nice happy cap boost from the Gems, which should be online T149 or so (6 turns for extraction facility?).

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

Besides the declined vassalization of Hector Alvarez, a lot of quiet builder's turns. We should get all 4 of the targeted systems, although Duat does not currently have a garrison (and Kurnugia needs to keep the PDS that's 1SE of it). I've built some missionaries, to spread Knowledge and Religion around a bit. Our cities are primed to explode in population: unlike Civ, your food surplus tends to INCREASE as you grow in size. Even with the rapidly escalating food costs, our larger cities grow in fewer turns than the smaller ones.

I have sold ours maps to everybody. Across 8 AIs, I can cover most of our deficit with sales from a mere 1 or 2 new bomber recons in someone's territory. We also have a lot of open borders now (6). The AIs are not teching well, and I figured that their gold should fund our research. Terrestial Networking comes in next turn.
Demographics:

I think we're winning.

Tech situation:


Our tech situation:


I think we want a starbase here for the oxygen:


Our current cities:

Most of those builds are brand new, so please feel free to veto. We could build wealth or shorter builds in many places, since next turn we get Commercial Satellites (+2 commerce on a planet!) to build everywhere.

FYI: Please delete Anti-Ship missiles when they are created. They cost upkeep. Including the Pacifism gold. They're far too weak (less than a single bomber strike) to keep lying around at 2gpt each.

Upcoming tech choices:
Shock and Awe: (with that lovely picture of Rumsfeld): If we want to begin gearing up for war, then this and Capital Ship Focus should be our next two techs. Shock and Awe only really gets us Battleships, kings of the stars, but Capital Ship gets us Delta Invasion ships, Carriers, and Capital Ship Doctrine (-20% cost to Battleships, this is the one I usually take when I'm building a fleet).

Mechanized Workforce: Delta Starbases (useless, since the build starbase command builds regular ones only. If the AI could threaten a starbase, then the upgrade might be worthwhile), and Delta Anti-Ship missiles are rather useless. Mechanized Workforce is +10% hammers in all cities, but -1 happiness in our largest 6 cities.

Environmentalism: Research Labs (+25% research, 80H. With Knowledge, and very few planets having built a second University, we don't need this yet). Green Economy: -20% commerce in all cities, but +1 to the pop cap of every single planet. This will be a fantastic civic once we've outgrown our planets if we've got the happiness.

If we want a Mechanized Workforce (with Religion floating around, gems coming online soon (T147?), and Sports Arenas left to be built, I think we can take the happiness hit), I say we go for it. If not, let's take the military techs so that we can build some offensive units. Regular Battleships and Delta Invasion should hold their worth for quite some time. Another option would be to head for jump lanes (railroads), the tech after Mechanized Workforce. We'll need some more workers (I didn't build any, didn't see the need), but RRing up to our targets is necessary on a map this big.

 

[timmy827]

Got it, will play in ~24 hours. Sorry M/T are really busy days, so no micro-plan elements for now, but some macro:

Lambda Cancer is nice, so I will check with a bomber squadron ASAP if it's still open and build another colship (probably sending the Gamma Virgo ship there first). Any other worlds worth colonizing? Also will start the oxygen starbase. Do we want another starbase SW of capital for titanium (copper) and iron? Together that gives the 20% bonus for carriers,cruisers,battleships,invasion ships.


Tech I think needs some discussion of when we want to start conquering and with what. Although I will defer some to Cynehard's experience, I'm not sold on battleships - they look really expensive. The input we've gotten from team members has been along the lines of "AI sucks at assembling threatening stacks", which makes me think that conquests are dominated by planet attacks even more so that city attacks in normal civ, which means that we'd want little besides invasion ships, planet defense ships to garrison new holdings, and carriers + squadrons for collateral (as an aside, the later types of carrier are total crap - cost twice as much to carry 4 squadrons instead of 3? Total ripoff; yes it's stronger but still very weak with contemporary ships and going to go down if you don't have something better in your stack for defense). Since the road network is often not as pervasive and no engineering-equivalent, if we wanted to start a military buildup soon I'd be fine with a few cruisers as stack defenders, anticipating that most AI threats would be Bombed into submission first.

My inclination is to continue on the civilan path of Mech Labor -> Space Elevator for now, at least until we can trade for Shock and Awe.

Also, on the fence about Mech Labor civic, input welcome there too.

 

[T-hawk]

Here's how I'd architect a military buildup:

1. Space Elevator first. Jump lanes take a long time to build, we should get a head start on them first. We'll conquer just as fast by starting later and moving 8 tiles at a time. Build commercial satellites and some extra conships.
2. Shock and Awe next. Start building some of the expensive battleships.
3. Capital Ship Focus. Now start on the cheap units: &#916; invasion ships and a carrier or two.

Titanium/iron starbase, definitely. Timing should be about right to complete it ~20 turns from now when we're ready to build battleships.

Battleships are worthwhile, you need them for stack defense and bombardment. The AI does build battleships and counterattack with them, which beats any lesser ship. For city combat, the AI builds quite a number of fighter squadrons and destroyers to intercept bombers, so battleships are much more reliable. Battleships do everything but bust cities (although they do have the nominal advantage over a &#916; defense ship, it's a loss in terms of hammer efficiency.) Two battleships per invading stack is about right.

Mech Labor civic - discounting the anarchy, definitely a net gain. It's pure profit for any system that is below the happy cap, which is still most of ours. If the anger does prevent a citizen from working, it's still an overall gain. Suppose the angry citizen is the 12th pop in a system. 11 workers + 10% is more than 12 workers, especially considering the 12th would work a mediocre planet as compared to the average of the first 11.

Not sure how it stacks up with the anarchy cost, though. First order approximation says +10% to one out of three production types makes for payback in 30 turns. I think our time horizon is still longer than that so it's worthwhile, but other opinions are welcome. We may want to look to double-revolting to Mech Labor and out of Pacifism at the same time (unless we are too big and it will cost an extra turn?)

 

[timmy827]

How do the "doctrine" civic alternatives to Pacifism work? Does the hammer cost of a battleship actually come down from 225 to 180, or is it +20% when building battleships? The first is a lot more attractive than the second. (effective +25% that multiplies with boni from factory/mech labor/monarchy, as opposed to a +20% that adds with the other mods).

 

[Olodune]

Here's how I'd architect a military buildup:

1. Space Elevator first. Jump lanes take a long time to build, we should get a head start on them first. We'll conquer just as fast by starting later and moving 8 tiles at a time. Build commercial satellites and some extra conships.
2. Shock and Awe next. Start building some of the expensive battleships.
3. Capital Ship Focus. Now start on the cheap units: &#916; invasion ships and a carrier or two.

I like this plan! I like a carrier heavy mix, but I do agree that BB's are needed for stack defense. I was trying to convince myself that it is worth it to switch away from Monarchy so that we could use our extra commerce to rush-buy some units, but I don't think it makes much sense. Our gold multipliers are too low (and we have no Kremlin).

Not sure how it stacks up with the anarchy cost, though. First order approximation says +10% to one out of three production types makes for payback in 30 turns. I think our time horizon is still longer than that so it's worthwhile, but other opinions are welcome. We may want to look to double-revolting to Mech Labor and out of Pacifism at the same time (unless we are too big and it will cost an extra turn?)

The 30 turn payback is too generous since it is only +10% of base hammers. I'm in favor with the double civics swap if it is only 1t anarchy.

Edit: Cross-post with Timmy. If multiplicative, the doctrines are a lot better.

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

Seconded on battleships. We should make sure each world with good hammer output has 1 training compound (40H). 3 training compounds for 6XP is not worth it (40+120+200H = 360H!). And T-Hawk's tech path sounds good.

Definitely we should switch our Labor civic to Mechanized Workforce. Ascension will probably be around T200-250.

I'm leaning towards a double-revolt: Right now, Pacifism is costing us 19GPT (20GPT - handicap + inflation), and yields a decent number of hammers (we make 113 base hammers, so after rounding down everywhere probably about 13-16 hpt). The cost is going to skyrocket when we start building, though, and become a net loss. Unfortunately, the only Doctrine currently available is Light Ship Doctrine, which gives us -10% to Destroyers and Cruisers, and that's not very helpful. And putting off Mechanized Workforce until we got Capital Ship Doctrine (2 techs later!) would be really, really silly.
At the moment, 2 revolts is still 1 turn of anarchy. If it still doesn't cost us an extra turn to revolt to Light Ship Doctrine, I think we need to double-revolt. I don't think it's quite worth an extra turn of anarchy...yet.

And we're going to want another civic switch for Economy. Industrialism is only 1 tech after Space Elevators, with the very solid Industrial Economy (-2 health in all cities, +15% hammers. This is an even better trade than Mechanized Workforce. Our largest systems are running food surpluses of 8, 9, and 11. Slightly slower growth into mediocre planets or going beyond our capacity isn't a big deal), so maybe we'll revolt to a better doctrine then? We can then consider switching to either Capital Ship Doctrine (-20% battleships) or Squadron Doctrine (-10% Fighters, Bombers, Carriers). Planned Economy isn't good (-10% hammers? Yuck), although Green Economy's +1 to planet size for -20% commerce is an interesting tradeoff. I don't think it's a good tradeoff, at least until we've got 20 pop systems.