Realism Invictus - Play-N-Learn

[jihe]

Interesting to see this wave of non-BTS write-ups these days. Also interesting to see a former lurker since 2004 starting such ambitious project.

Some guy here named jihe wanted RI, well, unbeknownst to him, he got it.

I hope for ya your presentation will sprout an amount of strategic discussions. It failed to me, but we neve know with a mod that is still really active like RI. Not that I know that mod in details.

I wanted rise of mankind - a new dawn But happy with this too.

 

[Joker.ru]

Lenneth

Slavery increases food, production and gold enabling the slave markets. You can't pass it most games with most leaders.

You right, even though i was never big fan of Slavery, it might be useful after all, especially combined with Nemetons (+25%C and P bonuses). Will see how we can benefit from it when its available

Spoiler :

You need health and low epidemic chance. Consider that the nemeton (you cant pass on the its production and gold bonus) diminishes health already and I only see in the early screenshots a clam for health and that's it! That's a big deal (where's the corn, etc? - Its a low food, bad health start: if there's no metal, its a weak start).

Yes, i am aware of this, unfortunately we don't have much options for Health at this point. There are Potatoes to far N and Fish down south but both are way to far to be of any interest. That said, our city can sustain few more citizens (taking into account +1 unhealthiness at era change).

Food is less problematic as we can farm all these irrigated grasslands, but that means chopping which will amplify health issues. Health is definitely not our strong point, but it's not yet critical either. Hopefully by the time we exhaust all our Health resources and buildings we will have access to more.

Finally, lumbermills will be better than mines.

No questions about it, lumbermills are way better (especially with all techs and buildings that add P and G points)

 

[Joker.ru]

T41:
Metal Lore has been discovered and Robert the Bruce orders a sacrifice of 10 virgins to thank Gods for their generosity - we have Cooper and Gems inside our capitol’s border. There is also Silver to the North and more Cooper to far North.

Spoiler :

Still no barbs in sight but I can hear the rumble of war drums coming from distance. Second archer will be ready in 4 turns so let them come.

OK, let’s pause for a minutes and recap. So far pretty much everything went according to plan; we have accomplished our 50 turn goals set at the beginning:

• Researched: Toolmaking, Archery, Woodworking, and Metal Lore. Note that I’ve made decision to research Archery immediately after Toolmaking (instead of Metal Lore) and main reason for it is that we had enough cash at that point to upgrade our warriors, so we can benefit from Archery immediately without a need to build anything.

• Built: worker, 2 warriors. Worker is busy chopping a river plain next to the city to clear the tile for improvements as well as to remove defensive bonuses for any attackers. Also we lost one warrior to hungry wolf pack, other two got successfully upgraded to Archers. One archer is now on a fog busting mission in Western outpost and second is protecting the capitol.

• We have scouted most of our surroundings and have much better intel on where to settle. Two strategic resources were discovered (Cooper, Horses) as well as Silver and Gems to boos our economy and support second city and larger army. I would prefer more food and health resources but we have to deal with what we have.

Spoiler :

Now it’s time to make plans for the future (next 50 turns for now) and draw dot map for next city(s). I am hoping to get more input from you on that.

Also would be nice if RI Team can weigh in on past events as well as future plans

-----------------------------------------------

Here is what I think in terms of our goals for next set of turns: at a high level we need to build one more city (Silver Horses) and to support that goal we need much larger army and better developed economy. More detailed analysis is as follows:

Must have Civics:

• Nobility (+15% Military production, +2 free military units, +10%COM and %10CUL in capitol). Needs Bronze Working

• Despotism (no additional cost penalty for number of cities, +1HAP from Walls). Needs Writing

Research:
Economy and Growth:

• Writing (Despotism, Open Borders)

• Stonecutting​

• The Wheel​

• Pottery​

• Architecture (Walls)

• Stonecutting​

• Sculpture (Monument)

• Stonecutting​

• Storytelling​

• Mysticism (Nemeton)​

Military:

• Bronze Working (Nobility, Better units)

• The Wheel​

• Pottery​

• Animal Husbandry (Horses)

• The Wheel​

Based on above I can assign weight to each tech:
Stonecutting = 3. Can be done in 11 turns
The Wheel = 3. Can be done in 9 turns
Pottery = 2
Storytelling = 1
Mysticism = 1

So our research path will be: Stonecutting->The Wheel->Pottery or Animal Husbandry. This should take about 33 turns and I will think about what to research next at that point.

Build:
- 3 Archers = 22 turns. This will also allow Bibcarte to grow to size 3
- Settler for Silver Horse city = ~27 turns (not taking into account production after growth)
So our Settler can be on its way to Sliver Horse city on turn 49 (plus or minus).

Of course there is an inevitable flaw in every plan, so will see how it goes and will adjust.

To be continued…

 

[Joker.ru]

T43:
First barbarian bowmen shows up in the woods to the N of our city. It will take him 2 turns to reach the capitol and our second defender will be trained just in time

Spoiler :

T48:
Barbarian decided to attach our city instead of taking the bait (our second archer fortified on forested hill) and dies in vain without dealing a single hit to our defender. These Protective trait bonus promotions are awesome.
Ismail adopt Despotism, which means he knows Writing. Not surprising given his traits. He doesn’t want to sign open borders with us just yet as he is still very cautious and unsure whether he can trust us. Need to get him to like us ASAP as his knowledge will be very useful to us in a long run.

Spoiler :

T51:
Transoxianan is the most advanced civilization in the world according to Thucydides (no surprise here). And another barb bowmen show up from South.

T52:
Stonecutting discovered and we have Stones on the other side of the South Lake. That’s nice but it will be a challenge to develop and protect. Stonecutting also unlocks Pyramids WW which gives nice boost to our Nemeton (+1PRO and +1SCI) as well as generating Great Engineer points also builds 50% faster with Stone. Very tempting indeed. Might think about this after settler is out. Thoughts?

Still no resources in the awesome looking "Three River" valley to the West.

Our spies can now see Ismail’s research (Woodworking in 4T), which is very handy. I guess he is not spending any money to spy on us (does he have some other civ nearby?)

Spoiler :

T54:
First GG has been born somewhere; I guess other civs have it rough with barb waves. Our Barb moves next to the city.
I will be sending two more archers on fog busting missions to North and South; this should help in protecting Horse city spot as well as help develop Stone to the South. Since there are no resources to the West, I might lift our blockade from there and help route barbarians (I do need them for XP and GG points)

Spoiler :

T55:
Doctrine – Rite of Passage has been founded (will go into more details on Doctrines later), I assume by GG that was born on previous turn. It wasn’t Ismail as his score didn’t change. Bowmen got killed by our city defender who now will be promoted to City Garrison 2 (+23% city defense, to a total of +93%).

T59:
Another GG born and I think this time it’s Ismail since his score just jumped +12 points. He is researching Philosophy which will give him access to Pacifism (enhances his +25GP bonus even more)
My archers are relocating to new outposts.

T61:
Pottery research began and archers are now in positions hoping to entice more barbs from Wild West. So far it’s been unusually slow invasion.
We get +1 to our relations with Ismail for sustained piece. SOB still won’t sign OB agreement

Spoiler :

T63:
Bibcarte have grown and is started training Settler.
We are now considered stronger than Ismail

He is probably building WW, the sneaky Trany (Transoxianan)

 

[Joker.ru]

T65:
Another barb finally shows up from SW, about time as I am starting to worry about missing on all the action

T66:
And he is not interested in our lands… damn it

T71:
Ismail adopts Pacifism. Both forests are chopped to speed up Settler (15T left). Bowman coming from SE peninsula

T72:
Another barb turns away from our lands… What’s going on? Did they tweak barbarians? Never seen them being so shy.
Our settler will be out in 14 turns and I need to decide whether to try and snatch Pyramids. Assuming we can develop and protect stone quarries to the south, the earliest they can be built is 30 turns or so.

Need your opinions here people

 

[plastiqe]

I was thinking the desert SW of the Horse even before the Silver popped up, and now that site looks fantastic. I noticed earlier that Bibs' city tile was really good, are all city tiles buffed like that?

In a regular game with a start like this I'd go for a second worker to chop and road before the first settler. You still might want to do that here because the first guy will be busy building mines and roads in Bibs and you want a worker pasturing the horse right away when you settle.

The usual rule for barbs is that they won't start entering territory until X number of cities have been settled on the continent so the rule must be different for R.I. K-Mod barbs won't attack when the odds are poor so maybe you're too well defended. Barb units have a very large vision area so they can probably see a better target.

 

[Joker.ru]

I was thinking the desert SW of the Horse even before the Silver popped up, and now that site looks fantastic.

Exactly what i had in mind. Desert tiles are useless anyway

I noticed earlier that Bibs' city tile was really good, are all city tiles buffed like that?

No, just pure luck. It's not the greatest start though due to lack of health resources. In RI each new era brings unhealthiness and unhappiness (+1 green face for first change, +2 each for next eras, IIRC)

In a regular game with a start like this I'd go for a second worker to chop and road before the first settler. You still might want to do that here because the first guy will be busy building mines and roads in Bibs and you want a worker pasturing the horse right away when you settle.

Workers in RI are much more expensive, right now it will take me 18 turns to train him . On the other hand, i do have crap load of resources that need to be developed. Hmmm

The usual rule for barbs is that they won't start entering territory until X number of cities have been settled on the continent so the rule must be different for R.I. K-Mod barbs won't attack when the odds are poor so maybe you're too well defended. Barb units have a very large vision area so they can probably see a better target.

Probably going for Ismail's lands

So now options are:

1. Settler->Pyramids gamble (~30 turns) - risky at this level as i am sure someone better and brighter is already building them. On other hand, i've seen games where AI finishes them on T200
2. Settler->Walls (research Architecture->Writing). Connect stone
3. Settler->Worker (or other way around) and play safe by developing and connecting resources

 

[Joker.ru]

BTW - keep in mind that each citizen needs 3 food in this mod. So that desert city will need bunch of farms to grow more than pop 3


Taking into account plastiqe’s advice here is what I think we will do: First worker will go build a mine on Gems to support new city and after that’s done will join the Settler to build pasture on Horses and Silver mines. Bib would build second worker after settler to connect stones for walls and eventually join forces with first worker to develop Cooper and build road network, farms, etc. Research Animal Husbandry->Architecture->Writing.


T76:
Barb bowman shows up in front of our Southern outpost and I decided to take a coin flip chance (50/50), mostly out of boredom, and attack. We won but note to self: never do it again as reloads are not allowed here . Our archer got 4XP points and will be promoted on next turn (probably make him anti-archer with land tactics (+10% vs land units) and cover (+25% vs archery units))

Spoiler :

T81:
Great Generals are spawning left right and center. I feel like we are missing all the fun and wasting our trait (+50% GG emergence inside cultural borders)

 

[Manco Capac]

T76:
Barb bowman shows up in front of our Southern outpost and I decided to take a coin flip chance (50/50) and attack. We won but note to self: never do it again as reloads are not allowed here

Spoiler :

Unless this rule was made different for this mod (which I doubt because I've seen only one mod changing it), the better way to fogbust is combining your city unfogging effect from culture and your units special rule that no barb can spawn from two tiles away even if the tile isn't seen. That rule permits larger spawnbusting region.

Note that works only for unit spawning, not barb city spawning.

 

[Manco Capac]

Just downloaded RI (which sadly is an older version of the recent SVN, making your save unplayable for me and don't want to deal with Tortoise stuff) and I can see the options myself. I think I will add my own spices because I see this thread may suffer the same fate as mine. Sad because it had a really good momentum initially that has everything to make me jealous, but given the great presentation, I don't want to see you lose interest.

I had to completely forget in my own thread the existence of potential readers to pursue.

Anyways, let's see the stuff drop by drop.

First, I don't see this rule where citizens eat 3 food. I see two food as usual. Is it due to the latest SVN? Dunno, but that makes me hate that change if that really is.

*Still consuming the new knowledge from the mod*

 

[Manco Capac]

Tips:

1) Push your spawnbusting region farther.
2) Make one (cheapest) and block that small passage around the silver while leaving the archer on the silver. That should secure 100% the north from attacks.
3)The archer next to Bibracte makes no sense (sorry if you wrote your reason, still consuming info)

 

[Joker.ru]

Note that works only for unit spawning, not barb city spawning.

Didn't know that, thanks!

First, I don't see this rule where citizens eat 3 food. I see two food as usual. Is it due to the latest SVN? Dunno, but that makes me hate that change if that really is.

Weird, i believe they had it for a while

I had to completely forget in my own thread the existence of potential readers to pursue.

Ouch, sorry to hear, let's hope this one will not end up with same faith

The archer next to Bibracte makes no sense (sorry if you wrote your reason, still consuming info)

I pulled him on purpose - i actually WANT barbs to come from the West . I need these GG and XP from killing them. So far it's been very slow

Make one (cheapest) and block that small passage around the silver while leaving the archer on the silver. That should secure 100% the north from attacks.

I am actually about to post latest update - second city has just been founded on desert tile and worker is pasturing horses. Archer from silver will move further north (somewhere around cooper and potatoes)

 

[Manco Capac]

Its too hard to get early improvements with raging barbs

Oh là là! I see my tip is half bad now. The Raging Barbarian option makes the barb zone of attack larger.

Still, if K-mod didn't make a work-around about that, put a warrior or that useless archer near gems next to silver. That should do the job of keeping the barbs away from north. Better than nothing.

 

[Joker.ru]

Still, if K-mod didn't make a work-around about that, put a warrior or that useless archer near gems next to silver. That should do the job of keeping the barbs away from north. Better than nothing.

Can't build anymore warriors after woodworking (or archery, don't remember). Cheapest one to build is a scout. It's 5 turns cheaper than archer (in Vienne) but has two moves. Which might actually make sense as i can use him later as intended (scouting).
The only problem i see with this is every barb will pick on him cause he is weak and ugly

 

[Manco Capac]

Can't build anymore warriors after woodworking (or archery, don't remember). Cheapest one to build is a scout. It's 5 turns cheaper than archer (in Vienne) but has two moves. Which might actually make sense as i can use him later as intended (scouting).
The only problem i see with this is every barb will pick on him cause he is weak and ugly

True. Just seen that the Militia takes over.
The scout is perfect. Even a worker would do the same job. But, you see, a worker has better things to do than sitting around.

The fact is I don't say blocking the path for defense (because obviously, the barbs will never attack the hilly defender), but to change their pathfinding. When entering into the invasion mode (I like to nickname it AIAREA_OFFENSIVE), it targets cities and makes a pathfinding towards them provided there's a path. The pathfinder function is stupid and considers enemy units as impassable tile just like mountains. By blocking northward, I suggested to deviate their path to give some breath room.

 

[Joker.ru]

The fact is I don't say blocking the path for defense (because obviously, the barbs will never attack the hilly defender), but to change their pathfinding. When entering into the invasion mode (I like to nickname it AIAREA_OFFENSIVE), it targets cities and makes a pathfinding towards them provided there's a path. The pathfinder function is stupid and considers enemy units as impassable tile just like mountains. By blocking northward, I suggested to deviate their path to give some breath room.

You sure it works regardless of unit strength? I might be wrong, but i think i had barb archers attacking my fortified warriors and scouts before (in RI, not vanilla)

 

[Manco Capac]

Archery it is, just need to make sure I send warriors back to the border just in time for discovery. Scout moving North fully reveals large 4 tile lake to the North, one tile desert and another village. Popping village that close to undefended city is a big gamble – our game can finish much sooner. Tempting… If hostile barbs pop out of the village and they are on the south tile, they only need 3 moves to get to our capitol and we have 7 moves until next warrior. Wait 5 turns before popping or gamble?

Normally, it shouldn't happen. The original devs of BTS included a clause about tribal huts not allowing barbs from 8 tiles of distance.

Northern scout has discovered Amber out in North Sea and now is coming back to pop the village. Two turns left until next warrior and Bibcarte will grow on the next turn!

I always thrill when I see amber (due to some other mod). But funny I see them in waters.

He is cautious towards us despite out +1 to diplomacy bonus.

It's normal. You need +4 of diplo to get to PLEASED. Without counting hidden diplo modifiers ofc.

Heavy (usually have 2 moves and are powerful attackers against everything but spearmen/pikemen) and Light (3 moves but vulnerable against archers). Light cavalry is also very good at repelling slave revolts and quick raids against enemy.

Interesting! I see all the modders concerted together to make mounted units weaker. PAE mod makes mounted units with -50% strength and TAM mod as well.
And now RI substracts 25% instead. I see they all viewed mounted units too superior than slow infantry (a.k.a foot soldiers).

Worker is ready to move out of the city. I’ve decided to send one of two archers for fog busting duty in the West. Second will go back to protect the city and worker. Bibcarte started working on third archer (9T). So far so good, everything is as planned.

Oh I see. You did know about fogbusting ability. Well....I don't even...

Finally, these chopping thoughts are something from BTS that don't apply properly here. Its production yield is meh and clearing forests to better kill barbs is not a strong enough argument.

I sense the same feeling coming from TAM mod. I wonder which between RI and TAM is older. Sometimes, I feel the concerted mods feeling come more from inspiration some modders took from older mods.

You need health and low epidemic chance

This was unneeded for sure. You don't need an implementation of a RNG that can screw up that early. Is there some turning off option of that feature?

 

[Joker.ru]

T81:
“Silver Horse” city (Vienne) has been founded on the desert tile and began working on archer, as we need more defenders now. I’ve decided not build a scout as they are only 5 moves cheaper but too weak to defend themselves. Also we will start paying support soon.
Worker started building pasture on horses, although they won’t be available in capitol until Sailing (enables coastal trading) or until path is built between two cities.
Northern outpost will move further North towards cooper and potatoes and archer from the West will come on to the cooper time to be able to support both cities

Spoiler :

 

[Manco Capac]

You sure it works regardless of unit strength? I might be wrong, but i think i had barb archers attacking my fortified warriors and scouts before (in RI, not vanilla)

I know it's regardless from unit strength because that came from experience and some code perusal gave me confirmation.

BUT the point is: Does Karadoc have made some change to it? That guy is a ferocious panther that kills bugs or things he considers failures.
I'm pretty sure RI main modder (Walter Hawkwood) didn't dig enough to start changing core rules. Core rules are what that make a feeling of BTS reeking into different mods. PAE is one mod that changes a lot of core rules. RI seems to affect more about buildings, units, civics, etc. Not things deeper like barb behaviors, when they spawn, some AI behaviors, etc.

Lemme see. I'll make a test game. Since I have the mod right in front of me.

 

[Joker.ru]

The original devs of BTS included a clause about tribal huts not allowing barbs from 8 tiles of distance

Damn it! I thought i remember rule like that just couldn't point finger on it. Thanks!

This was unneeded for sure. You don't need an implementation of a RNG that can screw up that early. Is there some turning off option of that feature?

Only by tweaking XMLs

Interesting! I see all the modders concerted together to make mounted units weaker. PAE mod makes mounted units with -50% strength and TAM mod as well.
And now RI substracts 25% instead. I see they all viewed mounted units too superior than slow infantry (a.k.a foot soldiers).

IMHO units are actually balanced pretty good in this mod. There is a counter to almost every type of attack/defense just takes time to get used to so many options.