Realism Invictus

[Walter Hawkwood]

I am on svn 5171. Since, I think 5170, I've not been able to play. The game keeps crashing. I am getting errors trying to create custom games. I get an error: Buginit - init 'CvScreensInterface failed' with some alt-tabbing and pressing escape, I can get the map to show up. But without some of the 'navigation' icons - that allow me to save the game, pull up the wiki, etc. I can alt-tab out of the application, alt-tab back in get them to show up and can eventually play for a while, but very shortly, the game will crash.
If I've saved a game and instead of starting a new one, I load the game - the game restores, but again I don't have the entire app. alt-tab'ing will get the game functional for a short while, but it crashes again very shortly. I have seen the message " Error in EndPlayerTurn event handler <bound method BurEventManager.onEndPlayer of <BugEventManager.BugEventManager instance at 0x04399FA8>>
Any help or suggestions?

All of that should be fixed in the latest SVN (there is still an error, but it is much less impactful). I'm working on it.

Hi Im so happy for the revolutions component. I think this can dramatically improve balance. One suggestion, I think the separatism malus between republic and despotism could be switched. Despotism is already somewhat necessary for large civs, and it would make sense that a despot invites more separatism. But gameplay wise I think it makes large civs work harder to keep their people happy, and keeps their constant warfare driven expansion more in check. Plus it makes republic more competitive against despotism, which i and a few others have been talking about for some time.

Republic was designed for staying small. Separatism malus underscores that. I may buff Republic in other way now that we have separatism.

One more thing that has been bugging me a little bit. Would there be a way to alter the AI to take relationships a bit more seriously. There isn't much of a point to maintaining them if they are still likely to declare war even when pleased. In fact in my book the really shouldn't be likely to attack unless they are displeased. Or at least the probability of an attack when they are cautious should be lower.

Relations already have a significant impact on deciding war targets. Out of several targets, AI is much more likely to choose the ones with poor relations. The problem is in the case when you are the only suitable target; then relations almost don't matter.

(though to be fair, a human player is never ever bound by such a thing as "relations"; this part of the game game is the foremost example of asymmetrical rules AI has to play with compared to humans)

So, first impressions (5171, one game, random map, emperor, about 200 turns in): Barb cities are "evolving" into minor civs too early and too often. I encountered the first just a few turns after I built my second city just barely outside that city's potential fat cross. Actually, the barb city was already established a few turns before my settler arrived, and when I went to scout it had about 4 defensive units. I just figured I'd wait and siege it later if I didn't culture flip it first. Next thing I knew, before I could even build my first building (a storyteller's circle), it had already settled into the Turks, spawned or built 3 workers in under 10 turns, and had already had its first culture border bump. Meanwhile, every turn or two I was getting reports of more civs spawning.

Yeah, I gave them a grace period of ~ 300 turns. Let's see if it's enough.

Regarding the "roadblock" purpose for Natives in America as far as I can see is just serve to block 3 major civilization by land, Aztec, Maya and Inca. While other civilization when they already meet native american, at that moment they will travel with a ship that able to explore rival territory.

They are even more important in this role in Africa (and, to a lesser extent, in Siberia). While the Americas have only three civs to compete for them, Africa can be totally up for grabs if minors don't keep their territories shut.

The thing is, I don't want to annex them in order to get their resources, I want to be able to trade with them, pass through their border when I land without bulldozing them whenever they are out of my way. And I want to include them to be a part of my game.

Yep, I heard you. When I address all the outstanding issues with Rev component and stuff, I will look into rebalancing the scenarios.

After creeping the forum here for sometime I always knew this was something the devs wanted to implement, but based on some of the comments over the last year/year and a half it looked like this mod was going to be put up on the shelf after roughly a decade of exceptional content so I was very surprised and pleased to see this. The Revolutions will be that nice shiny bow on top to complete an already exceptional modpack. Thank you for all of the work over the years, it's been very much appreciated.

Let's see how it all turns out. Throwing it away since we couldn't make it work exactly as we wanted to still isn't out of question ;-)

do not know why there could be such a band? because the map is too big? is there no way to optimize such bands to go away from the big map?

Never saw anything like this myself. Might be hardware-specific.

I've been playing a peaceful and defensive game so I maybe would've noticed this earlier otherwise: It seems like whenever AI manages to conquer a city from the other, it immediately flips back. Cities going back and forth is pretty typical in AI vs AI warfare due to the attacking stack getting too weakened to defend against counterattack so I didn't pay too much attention to the messages before but now I noticed a recently reacquired South Chinese city sporting South Chinese Jedziecs, from the attacking Polish army no doubt, so I realized this is probably due to Revolutions.

I'm assuming the chance of revolting back depends on the culture? Well, this mod tends to have a lot higher absolute culture values than regular so maybe those probability values need to be toned down.

Trying to tone down the effect now. Moreover, the cultural effect is now both negative and positive; having a cultural majority in a city actually provides a negative separatism value.

Playing the latest SVN. There's an error whenever a leader unites barbarians into a civ. It says something about error in AI autoplay or something like that. When I take a look in the WorldBuilder, there's a new civilization with a capital on the map, but units of this civilization seem to be surrounding a non-converted barb city, as if that city should've been converted also but didn't.

Should be more or less fixed.

I can see the fun potential in this Revolutions component, but ye gods! It is absolutely stupid for a victorious army to be seduced by the city and turn on its former comrades. Especially right away. In the event of a successful uprising you'd imagine the conquering army inside the city to be destroyed and replaced by weaker (and preferably wounded) militia-type units of the resistance. There has to be a grace period of sorts after conquest, but even so, if the occupying army just turns into turncoats(*) it still makes no sense, even if it is 10 turns later.

Yep, got rid of that. The army is now ejected to the capital instead (couldn't think of a way to make that closest friendly city instead, so the next best solution).

I played RevDCM exclusively until I "discovered" RI and never again since, thus my memory is a bit rusty. In RevDCM, wasn't there a grace period or some other mechanism after a city was taken militarily before it would/could rebel, or maybe the effect of invader's culture and military occupation was just tuned stronger?

Don't know, but a grace period sounds reasonable. I'll see what I can do.

Religion has a pretty strong influence too it seems. Taking on a city with several religions none of them your own skyrockets the separatism. At least I think that each "other" religion increases the separatism value. I'm not sure if it does that only if you have a state religion. Hopefully yes, because otherwise Free Religion needs a negative separatism value boost. What makes matters really bad also when conquering is all the health and happiness buildings being gone. In Realism almost of all that is tied to buildings, which tend to be destroyed upon conquering, rather than just having access to resources, and both are huge factors in determining separatism. Maybe cut down on the chance of buildings being wrecked, especially these.

None of the values are final yet, but I'd really like to keep non-state religions as a major source of pain for players separatism-wise.

Working on memory here, but I think I saw Forbidden Palace and Versailles reduce separatism, but Kreml didn't. Almost no building seems to affect it which is probably wise when the numbers are still overhauled on the mechanic as a whole. Keeps the number of variables lower. Jails do, and Security Bureaus, which makes sense. Some more wonders might maybe be justified. Such as Motherland Calls and maybe Statue of Liberty. In fact the wonders tied to civics all seem to have something going for them flavor-wise to suggest they unite the people either as a symbol (Statue), patriotism (Motherland), strength of government (Big Ben), by commerce (Hansa League) or by jailing dissenters (Lubyanka). And Magna Carta seems appropriate too.

Yeah, I'll think about buildings once I'm satisfied with the overall way the system works. That's the plan.

Haven't had a chance to try this yet, but I do feel a need to warn: Tread carefully. IDW sounds like a great component on paper, but it can be very, very overpowered in practice. I'm particularly concerned since in RI the AI Stacks of Doom, even with Logistics restraints, can measure in the dozens or even 100+. When you grind down stacks that big, IDW can completely overwhelm all other culture in a square quickly, even with a very small delta per unit. Hopefully you put in a cap or have some other way of limiting this effect. Having a square change from Enemy Territory to Friendly in mid-fight or vice-versa can have a pretty big effect on how the war develops.

I already changed IDW from absolute values to percentages. The actual values might go up or down yet, but in theory that should produce diminishing returns. I might find a way to tone it down in other ways as well; I'm considering setting a hard upper cap on the amount of culture one can gain/lose too. But in general, I think it might be a very good thing for RI even regardless of Revolutions, as late game conquests were unnecessarily painful due to colossal amounts of culture every city had.

I'll second that, for at least the last several SVNs (before Revolutions) I was getting a consistent CTD without any warning on the turn or shortly after building my first Settler in the Huge World Map scenario (Armenia). My system isn't overly stable right now (one of my graphic cards seized up and I'm still getting gummed up by some interrupt request storms that I haven't been able to isolate or repair), so I thought that it might just be me.

Thank you so much for pointing out that this was happening before Rev! I was fruitlessly searching what could have been causing that in the component... Now I'll try bughunting elsewhere.

 

[H4run]

They are even more important in this role in Africa (and, to a lesser extent, in Siberia). While the Americas have only three civs to compete for them, Africa can be totally up for grabs if minors don't keep their territories shut.

Yeah you are right, if only there is another way to keep the balance without castrating their diplomacy, but yeah, easier said than done.

Yep, I heard you. When I address all the outstanding issues with Rev component and stuff, I will look into rebalancing the scenarios.

I hope you find a way to makes it work, the latest update surely make the game lots more awesome, I hope the same will happened for the future updates.

 

[arizzi]

I am still experiencing crashes, but thank you for your recent effort to fix this.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I am still experiencing crashes, but thank you for your recent effort to fix this.

There was a reproducible CTD within the first 100 turns of World Map scenarios. It no longer occurs for me, so this one has been fixed. Are you still getting those with the latest SVN? Or are you referring to CTDs occurring under some other circumstances?

 

[arizzi]

The crashes occur on the world map for me. And also on the non scenario earth evolution ri edition map, which is essentially the normal big world map. I checked that I am running revision 5176

 

[Lord Brooks]

Hi, I'm looking forward to seeing how REV works on the mod. Just a small issue I've noticed on SVN 5176 - the Writing tech doesn't appear correctly when already discovered. It doesn't change colour in the tech tree. It also seems to be ignored when pathing to future techs. So for example if I've discovered Pottery and want to select Alphabet as my next target tech, then the path seems to ignore Writing, even though it is auto discovered on the path to Alphabet.

 

[SomeoneWhoCares]

I also having the same problem as Arizzi, on rev 5176. Was playing Huge World Map as China. Crashed a few turns after settling second city. So pretty early on.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

The crashes occur on the world map for me. And also on the non scenario earth evolution ri edition map, which is essentially the normal big world map. I checked that I am running revision 5176

Fixed, at least for the World Map.

Hi, I'm looking forward to seeing how REV works on the mod. Just a small issue I've noticed on SVN 5176 - the Writing tech doesn't appear correctly when already discovered. It doesn't change colour in the tech tree. It also seems to be ignored when pathing to future techs. So for example if I've discovered Pottery and want to select Alphabet as my next target tech, then the path seems to ignore Writing, even though it is auto discovered on the path to Alphabet.

Fixed.

I also having the same problem as Arizzi, on rev 5176. Was playing Huge World Map as China. Crashed a few turns after settling second city. So pretty early on.

Try one of the more recent revisions then, see how it goes.

 

[sazhdapec]

Fixed, at least for the World Map.

I confirm. It seems to be fixed. How did you do it?

However the game still crashes around late medieval - early renaissance on both world map huge and random (RI_planet generator) huge maps.

UPD. Just finished an autoplay game on a large map (RI_planet generator) successfully without crashes. Turn 1893 - space victory.

 

[arizzi]

Thanks so much, I too confirm that the world map is not crashing for me. However I do want to reiterate the aggressiveness of the AI and the tendency to declare war when pleased and when the power rating is either equal or not to their favor (and continue pursuing failed campaigns, allowing no peace.) I suspect it has something to do with how well fortified your cities are, but even when I bolster city defenses and have around 8 units or so in a city, they still attack. What are the factors that cause the ai to be so aggressive, is the defense of nearest city one of them. If it is I think it might be a good idea to remove that check, and just look at overall power rating.

 

[arizzi]

oops, I spoke too soon, still crashing on earth evolution ri, its just occurring later

 

[Orendor]

Hey it looks like you already know about this error, but in revision 5178 I'm getting an error message every so often that says "Error in BeginGameTurn event handler <bound method AIAutoPlay.onBeginGameTurn of <AIAutoPlay.AIAutoPlay instance at 0x0879CB70>>" Looks like its the same as the others reporting this error. A barb civ united on that turn, forming the chinese in the first insance I saw, and the french in the second. Save file is attached

Also in worldbuilder if you, for example, go into plot data and modify a river, upon exiting an error message reading "Error in WidgetUtil callback handler getWidgetHelp" appears. If I remember correctly this started appearing when the worldbuilder version was changed. But, it doesn't appear to affect functionality at all.

Gonna go ahead and update to the latest svn now.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I confirm. It seems to be fixed. How did you do it?

However the game still crashes around late medieval - early renaissance on both world map huge and random (RI_planet generator) huge maps.

UPD. Just finished an autoplay game on a giant map (RI_planet generator) successfully without crashes. Turn 1893 - space victory.

By trial and error mostly. I can't fix the root cause of those, as it sits within dll, so I just find their immediate causes and remove those. Got pretty good at playtesting during all those years...

Are those random non-recurring crashes? Since you managed to finish a full game, I will assume they are. What I was trying to fix was reproducible unavoidable CTD.

Thanks so much, I too confirm that the world map is not crashing for me. However I do want to reiterate the aggressiveness of the AI and the tendency to declare war when pleased and when the power rating is either equal or not to their favor (and continue pursuing failed campaigns, allowing no peace.) I suspect it has something to do with how well fortified your cities are, but even when I bolster city defenses and have around 8 units or so in a city, they still attack. What are the factors that cause the ai to be so aggressive, is the defense of nearest city one of them. If it is I think it might be a good idea to remove that check, and just look at overall power rating.

That is totally beyond me. All AI behaviour sits within dll, and I can't edit that.

oops, I spoke too soon, still crashing on earth evolution ri, its just occurring later

Crashing or crashing? As in that's a random crash that can be avoided by reloading or a 100% reproducible CTD, which was the case with the ones I fixed on the World Maps? Random crashes will happen from time to time later in game, that's practically a given - but if you can't progress past one, provide me a save.

Hey it looks like you already know about this error, but in revision 5178 I'm getting an error message every so often that says "Error in BeginGameTurn event handler <bound method AIAutoPlay.onBeginGameTurn of <AIAutoPlay.AIAutoPlay instance at 0x0879CB70>>" Looks like its the same as the others reporting this error. A barb civ united on that turn, forming the chinese in the first insance I saw, and the french in the second. Save file is attached

FYI, the error messages by themselves are non-informative. To really debug them, I need at least PythonErr.log from Documents/My Games/Beyond the Sword/Logs (assuming logging enabled).

By that revision all obvious BarbCiv errors should have already been fixed. Anyway, loaded your save under the latest revision (they are mostly savegame-compatible at this point, as I didn't add new units/buildings), and didn't get any errors.

Also in worldbuilder if you, for example, go into plot data and modify a river, upon exiting an error message reading "Error in WidgetUtil callback handler getWidgetHelp" appears. If I remember correctly this started appearing when the worldbuilder version was changed. But, it doesn't appear to affect functionality at all.

Yeah, I know about this one. It's been sitting there for quite a while now. But as you said, since it was not affecting functionality and sitting within WB, which is not needed for normal gameplay, I wasn't looking too hard into it.

 

[sazhdapec]

By trial and error mostly. I can't fix the root cause of those, as it sits within dll, so I just find their immediate causes and remove those. Got pretty good at playtesting during all those years...

I meant, what did you do to fix world map huge (WMH) early game crashes?

Are those random non-recurring crashes? Since you managed to finish a full game, I will assume they are. What I was trying to fix was reproducible unavoidable CTD.

No, those are not random. When I encounter one it still happens after reloading, after restarting the program and even after turning on the option to change random seed on reload in WB. As I pointed out they happen on huge maps (both random and WMH) around late medieval - early renaissance but yesterday the game went well on a large map (I'm sorry I wrote "giant" - large, of course). These crashes started happening since SVN 5144. Before that I didn't have crashes for ages even in a modern era WMH game.

UPD. Just ran a huge random map autoplay game.

However this time I restarted the program and loaded the nearest autosave. Surprisingly the game passed the crash point and lasted 83 turns.

I attach an initial autosave and the last one.

 

[Sathar]

Also getting Huge World map crash, though much later now than before (mid medieval now)

Here's a save, SVN 5179

 

[Kapor]

Unavoidable CTD on the next turn; even loading autosave several turns before doesn't help...

If you figure out how to fix it, i.e. what to delete in worldbuilder, let me know

---
And now for some feedback! It's looking really good so far. I'm Several suggestions:

1) Separatist revolts, as well as slave & serf revolts, shouldn't just happen. I'd prefer if they triggered an event letting you negotiate with the rebels, buy them off for large sum of gold, or allow serfs some concessions (reducing gold yield on a farm or something like that), or reforming the society to free commoners if tech is available. Main idea being giving player some agency in how to deal with revolts, as well as preventing really nasty surprises (if you are prepared to pay the price). Ideally, serf revolts shouldn't be random. If city is happy and healthy, it should be less prone to revolts than an unhappy city.

2) I'm not really happy with lack of consistency in government civics. Like, it seems like idea is that are autocratic governments, progressing from early to late: despotism, monarchy, dictatorship, and "democratic" goverments: republic, democracy, federalism.

So we have:
-despotism: bonus on number of cities maintenance, penalty on happiness.
-republic: opposite; bonus on happy, penalty on number of cities maintenance. Theme is clear; autocratic rule is cheaper, despotism is for expansion and republic for growing tall.
-monarchy: -25% distance maintenance, less happy penalty than despotism (but no bonus either, like republic or democracy). So far so good, it's keeping with the theme, although it is not clear why maintenance bonus is now distance and not no. of cities
-democracy: bonus to happy, BUT also -25% distance maintenance. Now, thematically, this seems like "upgrade" to monarchy, with same but better bonus, and not like type of rule that is fundamentally different, like despotism vs. republic is. Both are for same play style, both are same thematically, it does not "feel" like running democratic empire is any different than an absolute monarchy.
Later on, dictatorship has same number of cities maintenance bonus like despotism, returning to the theme... Wouldn't it be better if there was some sort of consistency?

3) Federalism fits way better, thematically, in legal category, than in government.
It tells which "interest group" rules the empire. So, is power behind your republic/monarchy/dictatorship in rich elites (plutocracy), or landed elites (feudal aristocracy), or central bureaucracy (civil service), or people (representation), or in autonomous federal entities that then decide on common policies (federalism)? I can imagine each option excluding others. I can not imagine federalism excluding democracy, republic, monarchy, or even dictatorship (see: Brasil after WW2, Soviet Union...) If I switch from democracy to federalism, did I just make my empire "less free"? If I switch from dictatorship to federalism, is it now "more free"?

I'm not sure what to add in government category however, to replace federalism.

4) Levee building provides fresh water, yet requires river to be built

5) Maybe a new name for South China? Not a big deal, but I was playing S.China and my neighbor was... China It felt weird, implying somehow that they are "proper" China and that I'm some southern secessionist. Maybe rename "China" to "Northern China" to keep consistency, or South China to Wu or Yangtze or whatever?

6) Maybe some basic resources should provide happiness directly, at least in later eras, just so that captured cities don't immediately starve? Or, increase chance to preserve luxury buildings on conquest.

Thank you!

 

[Shuikkanen]

@Kapor: I can answer point #4. It seems weird, but it's a change based on somebody's suggestion on this forum. The point is that now levees transfer fresh water throughout the city onto the other side. So, if your city is on a hill, squares on the non-river side now have the irrigated status as well. It actually makes sense if you think about it, considering what levees are, but it does seem weird at first glance. Maybe the devs should add a dislaimer of it into the description.

 

[H4run]

Hey, now I'm on my late game, I like to give my view regarding my game that might be improve the future updates.

First of all, the update is a blast, yes I like it more now. Many new feature, and I like the way you nerfed representation (which I always exploit) and free religion (that I forbid myself to chose because it is just too op, bonus research and all of the good things in religion, plus crazy happiness bonuses? that's too much). However on a side note but not crucial one Federalism is way too powerful, it is even makes planned economy seems less useful, currently I'm using free trade combine with federalism, I got blast in research 8000+, running huge empire with 85 percent research bar with 100-200+ income. And I see federalism just as democracy ++ or an upgrade to democracy. I really wish democracy is more like a better republic growing tall (centralized), while federalism is for a better monarchy (growing wide/decentralized government). And please can you give something for force labor? I know the civic is horrible, but if it is there it should have a benefit or something good for you, while it has more draw back than benefit.

Now for something crucial. I notice something strange in my game, the Greek civilization annihilate my Japanese neighbor and take over all of their cities. Later on I retook it from them, however my vassal, China, claim that those Japanese cities belong to them. But I think "ok, this must be because China have invest their culture over there more than I do, it is acceptable". However, in the late game, I fought with Ethiopian who has Israeli as vassal. My plan is simple, I capture Mecca and give it to my Arabian vassal, with the culture advantage I will use my cavalry to rampage their foot soldier. However after I liberate Mecca, I cannot give it back to my vassal! Not until turns later! It is really strange. In the second war I have similar plan, I will took Rakka, and give it to my vassal Arab, I attack Rakka who is own by Israeli with 3 huge division, consist of infantry, grenadier and artillery, I took it with ease, but when I want to give it back to my vassal, I cannot! I check the culture it is have Arabic, Egyptian, Ethiopian and Israeli influence, and it was Arab's city. I think to myself I just keep moving forward with my 3 division, while my cavalry sentry in the city to give a support, and maybe next couple of turn I can liberate this city to my vassal. 2 turn later I still cannot give it back to my vassal, while the Israeli using their cultural border advantage butcher all of my modernized infantry! When I want to retaliate with my hussar I cannot, because my hussar cannot use the road obiviously and desert now cost two moves instead of one (I like that!) it just one move away from butchering the enemies troops, and because of that I suffer heavy causalities.

Please can you give some consistencies on this? or shed some light about this issues? so next time I can plan more properly, nevertheless, I enjoy the updates so far!

 

[plasmacannon]

@Kapor: I can answer point #4. It seems weird, but it's a change based on somebody's suggestion on this forum. The point is that now levees transfer fresh water throughout the city onto the other side. So, if your city is on a hill, squares on the non-river side now have the irrigated status as well. It actually makes sense if you think about it, considering what levees are, but it does seem weird at first glance. Maybe the devs should add a disclaimer of it into the description.

That is a good idea. I was wondering if there were going to be any later game fresh water methods. This one requires a river. In my most resent game, I started off on a hill, 1 tile away from a river and lake, but not adjacent to them. So no freshwater source. In that case, the levee wouldn't work either. It seemed odd that I could build an ancient wonder to provide freshwater, but no modern one.
I'd need some kind of professional deep well drilled. We need that in too.

 

[H4run]

mmm one more thing, I play peaceful and defensive early, but each time I think it is a good time to declare war to my bully, I think each of vassal that he have I suffered diplomatic punishment not only to that particular vassal but to all other civilization that befriend with him. In the end I invest a crazy amount of diplomatic relation hit with other civilization like -12 you declare war to my friend, and they never seems to forget it. And every diplomacy relation that I invest are not helping. It is funny how they cannot forget how I declare war on them or their friend, but they gradually forget how I pay tribute to them several times. So in the end, I naturally becomes aggresive and neglect the diplomacy all together, my diplomacy hit is not fixable. The positive will vanish while the negatives accumulates.