Realism Invictus

[arizzi]

The crashes occur on the world map for me. And also on the non scenario earth evolution ri edition map, which is essentially the normal big world map. I checked that I am running revision 5176

 

[Lord Brooks]

Hi, I'm looking forward to seeing how REV works on the mod. Just a small issue I've noticed on SVN 5176 - the Writing tech doesn't appear correctly when already discovered. It doesn't change colour in the tech tree. It also seems to be ignored when pathing to future techs. So for example if I've discovered Pottery and want to select Alphabet as my next target tech, then the path seems to ignore Writing, even though it is auto discovered on the path to Alphabet.

 

[SomeoneWhoCares]

I also having the same problem as Arizzi, on rev 5176. Was playing Huge World Map as China. Crashed a few turns after settling second city. So pretty early on.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

The crashes occur on the world map for me. And also on the non scenario earth evolution ri edition map, which is essentially the normal big world map. I checked that I am running revision 5176

Fixed, at least for the World Map.

Hi, I'm looking forward to seeing how REV works on the mod. Just a small issue I've noticed on SVN 5176 - the Writing tech doesn't appear correctly when already discovered. It doesn't change colour in the tech tree. It also seems to be ignored when pathing to future techs. So for example if I've discovered Pottery and want to select Alphabet as my next target tech, then the path seems to ignore Writing, even though it is auto discovered on the path to Alphabet.

Fixed.

I also having the same problem as Arizzi, on rev 5176. Was playing Huge World Map as China. Crashed a few turns after settling second city. So pretty early on.

Try one of the more recent revisions then, see how it goes.

 

[sazhdapec]

Fixed, at least for the World Map.

I confirm. It seems to be fixed. How did you do it?

However the game still crashes around late medieval - early renaissance on both world map huge and random (RI_planet generator) huge maps.

UPD. Just finished an autoplay game on a large map (RI_planet generator) successfully without crashes. Turn 1893 - space victory.

 

[arizzi]

Thanks so much, I too confirm that the world map is not crashing for me. However I do want to reiterate the aggressiveness of the AI and the tendency to declare war when pleased and when the power rating is either equal or not to their favor (and continue pursuing failed campaigns, allowing no peace.) I suspect it has something to do with how well fortified your cities are, but even when I bolster city defenses and have around 8 units or so in a city, they still attack. What are the factors that cause the ai to be so aggressive, is the defense of nearest city one of them. If it is I think it might be a good idea to remove that check, and just look at overall power rating.

 

[arizzi]

oops, I spoke too soon, still crashing on earth evolution ri, its just occurring later

 

[Orendor]

Hey it looks like you already know about this error, but in revision 5178 I'm getting an error message every so often that says "Error in BeginGameTurn event handler <bound method AIAutoPlay.onBeginGameTurn of <AIAutoPlay.AIAutoPlay instance at 0x0879CB70>>" Looks like its the same as the others reporting this error. A barb civ united on that turn, forming the chinese in the first insance I saw, and the french in the second. Save file is attached

Also in worldbuilder if you, for example, go into plot data and modify a river, upon exiting an error message reading "Error in WidgetUtil callback handler getWidgetHelp" appears. If I remember correctly this started appearing when the worldbuilder version was changed. But, it doesn't appear to affect functionality at all.

Gonna go ahead and update to the latest svn now.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I confirm. It seems to be fixed. How did you do it?

However the game still crashes around late medieval - early renaissance on both world map huge and random (RI_planet generator) huge maps.

UPD. Just finished an autoplay game on a giant map (RI_planet generator) successfully without crashes. Turn 1893 - space victory.

By trial and error mostly. I can't fix the root cause of those, as it sits within dll, so I just find their immediate causes and remove those. Got pretty good at playtesting during all those years...

Are those random non-recurring crashes? Since you managed to finish a full game, I will assume they are. What I was trying to fix was reproducible unavoidable CTD.

Thanks so much, I too confirm that the world map is not crashing for me. However I do want to reiterate the aggressiveness of the AI and the tendency to declare war when pleased and when the power rating is either equal or not to their favor (and continue pursuing failed campaigns, allowing no peace.) I suspect it has something to do with how well fortified your cities are, but even when I bolster city defenses and have around 8 units or so in a city, they still attack. What are the factors that cause the ai to be so aggressive, is the defense of nearest city one of them. If it is I think it might be a good idea to remove that check, and just look at overall power rating.

That is totally beyond me. All AI behaviour sits within dll, and I can't edit that.

oops, I spoke too soon, still crashing on earth evolution ri, its just occurring later

Crashing or crashing? As in that's a random crash that can be avoided by reloading or a 100% reproducible CTD, which was the case with the ones I fixed on the World Maps? Random crashes will happen from time to time later in game, that's practically a given - but if you can't progress past one, provide me a save.

Hey it looks like you already know about this error, but in revision 5178 I'm getting an error message every so often that says "Error in BeginGameTurn event handler <bound method AIAutoPlay.onBeginGameTurn of <AIAutoPlay.AIAutoPlay instance at 0x0879CB70>>" Looks like its the same as the others reporting this error. A barb civ united on that turn, forming the chinese in the first insance I saw, and the french in the second. Save file is attached

FYI, the error messages by themselves are non-informative. To really debug them, I need at least PythonErr.log from Documents/My Games/Beyond the Sword/Logs (assuming logging enabled).

By that revision all obvious BarbCiv errors should have already been fixed. Anyway, loaded your save under the latest revision (they are mostly savegame-compatible at this point, as I didn't add new units/buildings), and didn't get any errors.

Also in worldbuilder if you, for example, go into plot data and modify a river, upon exiting an error message reading "Error in WidgetUtil callback handler getWidgetHelp" appears. If I remember correctly this started appearing when the worldbuilder version was changed. But, it doesn't appear to affect functionality at all.

Yeah, I know about this one. It's been sitting there for quite a while now. But as you said, since it was not affecting functionality and sitting within WB, which is not needed for normal gameplay, I wasn't looking too hard into it.

 

[sazhdapec]

By trial and error mostly. I can't fix the root cause of those, as it sits within dll, so I just find their immediate causes and remove those. Got pretty good at playtesting during all those years...

I meant, what did you do to fix world map huge (WMH) early game crashes?

Are those random non-recurring crashes? Since you managed to finish a full game, I will assume they are. What I was trying to fix was reproducible unavoidable CTD.

No, those are not random. When I encounter one it still happens after reloading, after restarting the program and even after turning on the option to change random seed on reload in WB. As I pointed out they happen on huge maps (both random and WMH) around late medieval - early renaissance but yesterday the game went well on a large map (I'm sorry I wrote "giant" - large, of course). These crashes started happening since SVN 5144. Before that I didn't have crashes for ages even in a modern era WMH game.

UPD. Just ran a huge random map autoplay game.

However this time I restarted the program and loaded the nearest autosave. Surprisingly the game passed the crash point and lasted 83 turns.

I attach an initial autosave and the last one.

 

[Sathar]

Also getting Huge World map crash, though much later now than before (mid medieval now)

Here's a save, SVN 5179

 

[Kapor]

Unavoidable CTD on the next turn; even loading autosave several turns before doesn't help...

If you figure out how to fix it, i.e. what to delete in worldbuilder, let me know

---
And now for some feedback! It's looking really good so far. I'm Several suggestions:

1) Separatist revolts, as well as slave & serf revolts, shouldn't just happen. I'd prefer if they triggered an event letting you negotiate with the rebels, buy them off for large sum of gold, or allow serfs some concessions (reducing gold yield on a farm or something like that), or reforming the society to free commoners if tech is available. Main idea being giving player some agency in how to deal with revolts, as well as preventing really nasty surprises (if you are prepared to pay the price). Ideally, serf revolts shouldn't be random. If city is happy and healthy, it should be less prone to revolts than an unhappy city.

2) I'm not really happy with lack of consistency in government civics. Like, it seems like idea is that are autocratic governments, progressing from early to late: despotism, monarchy, dictatorship, and "democratic" goverments: republic, democracy, federalism.

So we have:
-despotism: bonus on number of cities maintenance, penalty on happiness.
-republic: opposite; bonus on happy, penalty on number of cities maintenance. Theme is clear; autocratic rule is cheaper, despotism is for expansion and republic for growing tall.
-monarchy: -25% distance maintenance, less happy penalty than despotism (but no bonus either, like republic or democracy). So far so good, it's keeping with the theme, although it is not clear why maintenance bonus is now distance and not no. of cities
-democracy: bonus to happy, BUT also -25% distance maintenance. Now, thematically, this seems like "upgrade" to monarchy, with same but better bonus, and not like type of rule that is fundamentally different, like despotism vs. republic is. Both are for same play style, both are same thematically, it does not "feel" like running democratic empire is any different than an absolute monarchy.
Later on, dictatorship has same number of cities maintenance bonus like despotism, returning to the theme... Wouldn't it be better if there was some sort of consistency?

3) Federalism fits way better, thematically, in legal category, than in government.
It tells which "interest group" rules the empire. So, is power behind your republic/monarchy/dictatorship in rich elites (plutocracy), or landed elites (feudal aristocracy), or central bureaucracy (civil service), or people (representation), or in autonomous federal entities that then decide on common policies (federalism)? I can imagine each option excluding others. I can not imagine federalism excluding democracy, republic, monarchy, or even dictatorship (see: Brasil after WW2, Soviet Union...) If I switch from democracy to federalism, did I just make my empire "less free"? If I switch from dictatorship to federalism, is it now "more free"?

I'm not sure what to add in government category however, to replace federalism.

4) Levee building provides fresh water, yet requires river to be built

5) Maybe a new name for South China? Not a big deal, but I was playing S.China and my neighbor was... China It felt weird, implying somehow that they are "proper" China and that I'm some southern secessionist. Maybe rename "China" to "Northern China" to keep consistency, or South China to Wu or Yangtze or whatever?

6) Maybe some basic resources should provide happiness directly, at least in later eras, just so that captured cities don't immediately starve? Or, increase chance to preserve luxury buildings on conquest.

Thank you!

 

[Shuikkanen]

@Kapor: I can answer point #4. It seems weird, but it's a change based on somebody's suggestion on this forum. The point is that now levees transfer fresh water throughout the city onto the other side. So, if your city is on a hill, squares on the non-river side now have the irrigated status as well. It actually makes sense if you think about it, considering what levees are, but it does seem weird at first glance. Maybe the devs should add a dislaimer of it into the description.

 

[H4run]

Hey, now I'm on my late game, I like to give my view regarding my game that might be improve the future updates.

First of all, the update is a blast, yes I like it more now. Many new feature, and I like the way you nerfed representation (which I always exploit) and free religion (that I forbid myself to chose because it is just too op, bonus research and all of the good things in religion, plus crazy happiness bonuses? that's too much). However on a side note but not crucial one Federalism is way too powerful, it is even makes planned economy seems less useful, currently I'm using free trade combine with federalism, I got blast in research 8000+, running huge empire with 85 percent research bar with 100-200+ income. And I see federalism just as democracy ++ or an upgrade to democracy. I really wish democracy is more like a better republic growing tall (centralized), while federalism is for a better monarchy (growing wide/decentralized government). And please can you give something for force labor? I know the civic is horrible, but if it is there it should have a benefit or something good for you, while it has more draw back than benefit.

Now for something crucial. I notice something strange in my game, the Greek civilization annihilate my Japanese neighbor and take over all of their cities. Later on I retook it from them, however my vassal, China, claim that those Japanese cities belong to them. But I think "ok, this must be because China have invest their culture over there more than I do, it is acceptable". However, in the late game, I fought with Ethiopian who has Israeli as vassal. My plan is simple, I capture Mecca and give it to my Arabian vassal, with the culture advantage I will use my cavalry to rampage their foot soldier. However after I liberate Mecca, I cannot give it back to my vassal! Not until turns later! It is really strange. In the second war I have similar plan, I will took Rakka, and give it to my vassal Arab, I attack Rakka who is own by Israeli with 3 huge division, consist of infantry, grenadier and artillery, I took it with ease, but when I want to give it back to my vassal, I cannot! I check the culture it is have Arabic, Egyptian, Ethiopian and Israeli influence, and it was Arab's city. I think to myself I just keep moving forward with my 3 division, while my cavalry sentry in the city to give a support, and maybe next couple of turn I can liberate this city to my vassal. 2 turn later I still cannot give it back to my vassal, while the Israeli using their cultural border advantage butcher all of my modernized infantry! When I want to retaliate with my hussar I cannot, because my hussar cannot use the road obiviously and desert now cost two moves instead of one (I like that!) it just one move away from butchering the enemies troops, and because of that I suffer heavy causalities.

Please can you give some consistencies on this? or shed some light about this issues? so next time I can plan more properly, nevertheless, I enjoy the updates so far!

 

[plasmacannon]

@Kapor: I can answer point #4. It seems weird, but it's a change based on somebody's suggestion on this forum. The point is that now levees transfer fresh water throughout the city onto the other side. So, if your city is on a hill, squares on the non-river side now have the irrigated status as well. It actually makes sense if you think about it, considering what levees are, but it does seem weird at first glance. Maybe the devs should add a disclaimer of it into the description.

That is a good idea. I was wondering if there were going to be any later game fresh water methods. This one requires a river. In my most resent game, I started off on a hill, 1 tile away from a river and lake, but not adjacent to them. So no freshwater source. In that case, the levee wouldn't work either. It seemed odd that I could build an ancient wonder to provide freshwater, but no modern one.
I'd need some kind of professional deep well drilled. We need that in too.

 

[H4run]

mmm one more thing, I play peaceful and defensive early, but each time I think it is a good time to declare war to my bully, I think each of vassal that he have I suffered diplomatic punishment not only to that particular vassal but to all other civilization that befriend with him. In the end I invest a crazy amount of diplomatic relation hit with other civilization like -12 you declare war to my friend, and they never seems to forget it. And every diplomacy relation that I invest are not helping. It is funny how they cannot forget how I declare war on them or their friend, but they gradually forget how I pay tribute to them several times. So in the end, I naturally becomes aggresive and neglect the diplomacy all together, my diplomacy hit is not fixable. The positive will vanish while the negatives accumulates.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I meant, what did you do to fix world map huge (WMH) early game crashes?

Removed the -50% culture that Hunter-Gatherers had. And no, I have no idea on how exactly that caused CTDs. Still, managed to isolate that by diligently narrowing down the CTD source. Will probably do the same with those later CTDs now that I have the saves.

No, those are not random. When I encounter one it still happens after reloading, after restarting the program and even after turning on the option to change random seed on reload in WB. As I pointed out they happen on huge maps (both random and WMH) around late medieval - early renaissance but yesterday the game went well on a large map (I'm sorry I wrote "giant" - large, of course). These crashes started happening since SVN 5144. Before that I didn't have crashes for ages even in a modern era WMH game.

Thanks, will try to troubleshoot these ones as well, and hopefully fix them.

Also getting Huge World map crash, though much later now than before (mid medieval now)

Here's a save, SVN 5179

Thanks, again, the more saves the merrier.

1) Separatist revolts, as well as slave & serf revolts, shouldn't just happen. I'd prefer if they triggered an event letting you negotiate with the rebels, buy them off for large sum of gold, or allow serfs some concessions (reducing gold yield on a farm or something like that), or reforming the society to free commoners if tech is available. Main idea being giving player some agency in how to deal with revolts, as well as preventing really nasty surprises (if you are prepared to pay the price). Ideally, serf revolts shouldn't be random. If city is happy and healthy, it should be less prone to revolts than an unhappy city.

Yeah, I agree with your general line of thought. Unfortunately, at the moment it is pretty impossible for me to code something like that, especially if AI is also to make use of it. I was thinking of tying the amount of revolt risk to actual usage of slave/serf labor (for instance, to the number of slave farms and slave markets in the cities), but I'm afraid that will cause many more calculations if calculated on a per city basis. Also, it would require the display of the per city revolt chances in cities, so that would be more interface work.

2) I'm not really happy with lack of consistency in government civics. Like, it seems like idea is that are autocratic governments, progressing from early to late: despotism, monarchy, dictatorship, and "democratic" goverments: republic, democracy, federalism.

So we have:
-despotism: bonus on number of cities maintenance, penalty on happiness.
-republic: opposite; bonus on happy, penalty on number of cities maintenance. Theme is clear; autocratic rule is cheaper, despotism is for expansion and republic for growing tall.
-monarchy: -25% distance maintenance, less happy penalty than despotism (but no bonus either, like republic or democracy). So far so good, it's keeping with the theme, although it is not clear why maintenance bonus is now distance and not no. of cities
-democracy: bonus to happy, BUT also -25% distance maintenance. Now, thematically, this seems like "upgrade" to monarchy, with same but better bonus, and not like type of rule that is fundamentally different, like despotism vs. republic is. Both are for same play style, both are same thematically, it does not "feel" like running democratic empire is any different than an absolute monarchy.
Later on, dictatorship has same number of cities maintenance bonus like despotism, returning to the theme... Wouldn't it be better if there was some sort of consistency?

Democracy is supposed to be the late-game "tall" civic, and it is better than Republic in every aspect. It just manages to be better than Monarchy as well

As for thematic differences between autocratic and democratic empires, I would also very much like to see some meaningful differences there, but so far I've had no brilliant ideas on how to differentiate those better.

3) Federalism fits way better, thematically, in legal category, than in government.
It tells which "interest group" rules the empire. So, is power behind your republic/monarchy/dictatorship in rich elites (plutocracy), or landed elites (feudal aristocracy), or central bureaucracy (civil service), or people (representation), or in autonomous federal entities that then decide on common policies (federalism)? I can imagine each option excluding others. I can not imagine federalism excluding democracy, republic, monarchy, or even dictatorship (see: Brasil after WW2, Soviet Union...) If I switch from democracy to federalism, did I just make my empire "less free"? If I switch from dictatorship to federalism, is it now "more free"?

Well, the idea was that "Democracy" is unitary democracy, while "Federalism" is federal democracy. It was just a bit too lengthy to spell out. So both are equally "free", and are just two different forms of modern democracy.

I'm not sure what to add in government category however, to replace federalism.

That is a very real problem, and that is the main reason Federalism was split out of Democracy in the first place. There aren't enough different "-ocracies" that humans have invented.

4) Levee building provides fresh water, yet requires river to be built

Explained above. Basically levee can be used as a means of getting water over the hills.

5) Maybe a new name for South China? Not a big deal, but I was playing S.China and my neighbor was... China It felt weird, implying somehow that they are "proper" China and that I'm some southern secessionist. Maybe rename "China" to "Northern China" to keep consistency, or South China to Wu or Yangtze or whatever?

Couldn't find a decent name for it yet that isn't period-specific. I am well aware that "South China" is very clumsy as far as civ names go, especially on random maps where it may well spawn to the North of actual China. I am hoping to have dynamic civ names one day, and as soon as I have them, it will become much less awkward, because period-specific names for both parts of China are plenty.

6) Maybe some basic resources should provide happiness directly, at least in later eras, just so that captured cities don't immediately starve? Or, increase chance to preserve luxury buildings on conquest.

Yeah, I am thinking about that. Actually if Josh implements one tweak to resource production logic I long wanted to see, this will definitely become a reality.

However on a side note but not crucial one Federalism is way too powerful, it is even makes planned economy seems less useful, currently I'm using free trade combine with federalism, I got blast in research 8000+, running huge empire with 85 percent research bar with 100-200+ income. And I see federalism just as democracy ++ or an upgrade to democracy. I really wish democracy is more like a better republic growing tall (centralized), while federalism is for a better monarchy (growing wide/decentralized government). And please can you give something for force labor? I know the civic is horrible, but if it is there it should have a benefit or something good for you, while it has more draw back than benefit.

Yeah, I also don't like how there is no real competition to Federalism late game. I hope to change it one day.

Now for something crucial. I notice something strange in my game, the Greek civilization annihilate my Japanese neighbor and take over all of their cities. Later on I retook it from them, however my vassal, China, claim that those Japanese cities belong to them. But I think "ok, this must be because China have invest their culture over there more than I do, it is acceptable". However, in the late game, I fought with Ethiopian who has Israeli as vassal. My plan is simple, I capture Mecca and give it to my Arabian vassal, with the culture advantage I will use my cavalry to rampage their foot soldier. However after I liberate Mecca, I cannot give it back to my vassal! Not until turns later! It is really strange. In the second war I have similar plan, I will took Rakka, and give it to my vassal Arab, I attack Rakka who is own by Israeli with 3 huge division, consist of infantry, grenadier and artillery, I took it with ease, but when I want to give it back to my vassal, I cannot! I check the culture it is have Arabic, Egyptian, Ethiopian and Israeli influence, and it was Arab's city. I think to myself I just keep moving forward with my 3 division, while my cavalry sentry in the city to give a support, and maybe next couple of turn I can liberate this city to my vassal. 2 turn later I still cannot give it back to my vassal, while the Israeli using their cultural border advantage butcher all of my modernized infantry! When I want to retaliate with my hussar I cannot, because my hussar cannot use the road obiviously and desert now cost two moves instead of one (I like that!) it just one move away from butchering the enemies troops, and because of that I suffer heavy causalities.

Please can you give some consistencies on this? or shed some light about this issues? so next time I can plan more properly, nevertheless, I enjoy the updates so far!

I think the issue with "liberating" wrong cities might very well be a vanilla civ bug. At least I saw it reported for vanilla game. It is definitely some kind of a bug, but I have yet to see anyone offer a meaningful solution to it.

That is a good idea. I was wondering if there were going to be any later game fresh water methods. This one requires a river. In my most resent game, I started off on a hill, 1 tile away from a river and lake, but not adjacent to them. So no freshwater source. In that case, the levee wouldn't work either. It seemed odd that I could build an ancient wonder to provide freshwater, but no modern one.
I'd need some kind of professional deep well drilled. We need that in too.

There is always the desalination plant for those seaside cities with no rivers. But a modern fresh water wonder actually sounds like a good idea to me; I'll keep that in mind.

mmm one more thing, I play peaceful and defensive early, but each time I think it is a good time to declare war to my bully, I think each of vassal that he have I suffered diplomatic punishment not only to that particular vassal but to all other civilization that befriend with him. In the end I invest a crazy amount of diplomatic relation hit with other civilization like -12 you declare war to my friend, and they never seems to forget it. And every diplomacy relation that I invest are not helping. It is funny how they cannot forget how I declare war on them or their friend, but they gradually forget how I pay tribute to them several times. So in the end, I naturally becomes aggresive and neglect the diplomacy all together, my diplomacy hit is not fixable. The positive will vanish while the negatives accumulates.

Hmmmm... I should systematically look into balancing various diplomatic memories at some point. Never been done before in RI.

 

[H4run]

@Walter Hawkwood for sure as long as you and your team around, I feel no need to have other civilization series haha! one other little thing, now the vassal system is awesome, there are no huge chunk of concentrate vassal flogging around powerful nation. And now I realize that I'm not only able to suggest my vassal to research certain technology, but I also can ask my vassal to prepare themselves for war (before the war even happened!), that's just awesome, they are now more effective in the battlefield.

But there is a little diplomatic twist that exist in civilization 5 that not exist in civilization 4, each time a civilization ask you to assist them to declare war with their adversary, you can ask them to give you 10 turn to prepare, while in civilization 4 you either accept it in that very turn, or get a diplomatic hit. I don't know how hard is that to implement, but if there is an option like that, it will be so nice to have, and yes, I can wait 2 years for that, it's ok, because the impact on gameplay will be huge different.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

But there is a little diplomatic twist that exist in civilization 5 that not exist in civilization 4, each time a civilization ask you to assist them to declare war with their adversary, you can ask them to give you 10 turn to prepare, while in civilization 4 you either accept it in that very turn, or get a diplomatic hit. I don't know how hard is that to implement, but if there is an option like that, it will be so nice to have, and yes, I can wait 2 years for that, it's ok, because the impact on gameplay will be huge different.

The short answer is "almost impossible". Diplomatic actions are among the least moddable things in Civ 4.

 

[H4run]

The short answer is "almost impossible". Diplomatic actions are among the least moddable things in Civ 4.

And here I thought it will be slightly harder than adding new building, because in my mind it is pretty simple. Too bad we cannot maximize the potential of this game.