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Realism Invictus

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by Walter Hawkwood, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. BCheek

    BCheek Warlord

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    Getting an unrecoverable crash. I've had this happen a few times in other games too, although rarely.

    Saved game attached. I can provide the dump file too if anyone thinks it may help diagnose the issue.

    I tried turning off revolutions, slave/serf rebellions, random events, holy city migration, espionage etc. and bumping ahead the game turns in world builder, since sometimes that fixes it, but no luck.
     

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  2. BCheek

    BCheek Warlord

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    Error message I'm receiving.
     

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  3. Snowygerry

    Snowygerry Chieftain

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    Just a word of appreciation - terrific work done here, tnx to all involved in this :thumbsup:
     
  4. Snowygerry

    Snowygerry Chieftain

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    Anyone still playing this one ?

    Halfway through my second game, made a few beginners mistakes, but found my feet and am in a quite comfortable position in 1760.

    A few things that stand out for me.

    The AI is quite good at exploiting the rock/scissors/paper relation of the new units, lost a few battles between what I figured were even-matched stacks, that doesn't happen a lot in this game.

    Dictatorship is very strong.

    Conquest or Domination will be difficult - culture really matters here, conquering foreign cities and incorporating them is hard.

    Diplomacy seems reasonable (at Noble) may actually go for a diplomatic victory....
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2020
  5. Zap0

    Zap0 Chieftain

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    Definitely still playing this one ;-)

    Agree with what you say. Dictatorship being best ship and the AI being miles better at a lot of tactical decisions than what you'd usually expect especially.
     
  6. oldbay

    oldbay Chieftain

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    I confirm this problem - attach the save file of my game. Version mod 3.5. In version 3.4 I did not observe such this problem.

    ps:
    The error occurs on the next round in a saved game.
     

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    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
  7. Snowygerry

    Snowygerry Chieftain

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    Have you tried replaying from an earlier autosave ?

    In a game like this a "broken save" is hardly a surprise.
     
  8. Merchant of Bibracte

    Merchant of Bibracte Chieftain

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    Hey everyone, first off let me say that this is my first post on the forum and that RI is my favourite mod for any game ever. I've been religiously playing RI 3.4 for the past couple years now (haven't gotten to 3.5 yet) and feel like I am quite comfortable with all the new mechanics and gameplay features of the mod by now. Problem is, I am still completely terrible at this game, and whereas with a typical game there is a wealth of strategy guides and walkthroughs to look up, with a mod like this there is a dearth of the kind of in-depth material that I am looking for. Guides for vanilla civ IV can only be used for so much in this instance. I'm basically asking you guys to give me your best tips on how to reliably win games on Monarch difficulty or above.

    I tend to play standard size maps with 9-11 civs, 1-3 continents with the perfect_mongoose earth generator. My typical game has me found a few cities, conquer a few, nab a couple wonders, then sit back and build up as I tech to Shipyards to explore the rest of the world. Only it seems that often by the time I am in the mid-classical to early medieval period I start to see notifications of a rival civ scoring a number of wonders towards the late medieval to early renaissance age. When I reach Renaissance they've typicaly researched Flintlock Musket and are soon dumping doom stacks of fusiliers and light infantry onto my civ and my sword-wielding army is toast. Sometimes its multiple civs doing this at once, and even when I've got several more advanced civs giving me tech bonus with open borders, it never seems to make the difference. My games feel like desperately treading water until I hit the mid-game and realize I was dead for the last 300 turns and didn't even know it.

    It seems that what occurs in the game is that one civ gains a signifcant bonus over others (either from geography or early bonus) and achieves "escape velocity" where it soon has an insourmountable advantage over the other civs. This problem is exacerbated significantly going into the Industrial age when Farming Mechanization comes and suddenly they've got 4-6 new wheats/potatoes etc. feeding their cities. If its a civ that has UI farms like Korea or Poland, this issue is basically doubled. Somehow it feels as if the AI never suffers any negative consequences from creating mega cities, whereas I have to fastidiously keep my growth in check, only to find my rival(s) happily working with a pop 15 capital and 5+ cities at 11-17 in the medieval age. Does the AI not get the debuff from pandemics or something? This applies to number of cities as well. The AI does not seem to suffer any increases to research time if it has a bunch of cities. Although Civ IV was designed to eliminate infinite city sprawl the AI seems to employ it with impunity.

    So I want your guys' feedback on what you might think I'm doing wrong. Essentially I feel like there's some trick to generating research and healthy growth in the early to mid-game that I'm missing. I also have a couple of questions that I hope some of you may be able to answer:
    1. Is there ever any point in running Protectionism? This civic utterly baffles me.
    2. Does the AI ever use GPs to research techs or run trade missions?
    3. What leader traits do you think is best?
    4. What's the optimal balance between growing towns and growing GPs?
     
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  9. Hamid.H

    Hamid.H Warlord

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    i usually play on emperor or immoral. basically my strategy is to invade 2-3 valuable cities with good growth and production early on for 3-4 cities total, running republic and maxing scientific gp production. if im able to build some wonders then i can usually get away with capturing an extra city or two for 5-6 cities total. if i have a nearby and aggressive ai and am forced to wipe them out completely then ill run despotism and hold anywhere from 7-9 cities. build as many scientific wonders as you can.

    after that my strategy is to balkanize my neighbors and do anything i can to instigate wars between them and to cause long and drawn out stalemates. i rarely get directly involved in their wars. 99% of the time all you have to do is make sure both side have the means to produce equal strength units once theyre at war. if one civ lacks iron or horses, gift it to them. once it looks like one might gain an edge on the other, cancel the trade deal then rinse and repeat. this slows down the ai and if theyre attacking another neighbor then neither of them are attacking you! run slavery.

    as soon as my economy can support more cities i start invading neighbors and grow to 12 cities. i try to found a religion, or conquer a holy city. i then try to build all the religious wonders for that religion. if youve done this correctly your army should be so strong at this point that youll rarely have another civ declare war and if they do you can bring them to peace terms easily. i keep balkanizing my neighbors and encouraging stalemates. i find monarchy and merchant princess as my go to civics. run aristocracy too if you can afford it.

    next i begin improving my economy until i research the tech that allows you to start taking vassals. i begin invading my remaining neighbors. this is important - youll have far less separatism if youre playing with revolutions on and a much stronger economy if you take vassals instead of conquering them outright. also do not peacefully take a vassal unless you have a pressing short-term and strategic reason to do so. they always separate eventually no matter how much stronger you are than them and they often do so at the most inconvenient times. taking a vassal peacefully helps them and not you. theyll use you as a meat shield then try to separate once theyve built their army back up. i only take vassals that i can grow to 3 or more cities either by invading and "liberating" their cities after theyve capitulated or by invading a small civ who has claim to a neighbor's cities. after i force the small civ to capitulate, i invade their neighbor and gift those cities to my vassal. dont allow your vassals to gain random territory far away from their core cities. this will destabilize them and theyll be running their armies all over the map idiotically. i also gift my vassals any military resources theyre lacking and build them up.

    next i encircle my biggest rivals with my vassals. then invade and force my rivals to become vassals. i will help my vassals expand their territory by capturing and controlling my rival's cities on their borders. this is far less costly than making their territory part of your empire. youll want either federalism/free market or dictatorship/free market depending on your needs. either are very successful. it often makes little difference.

    this happens when a civ is wonderwhoring scientific wonders. you need to capture or destroy their cities with the scientific wonders. otherwise they out tech everyone by 1 or 2 eras and start scorching the earth. the best strategy is to build scientific wonders and wonders that produce scientific gps so the ai doesnt have them.

    1. not sure. i've never run it. imo youd have to be almost universally hated with no vassals for it to be of any benefit.
    2. not sure. ive never noticed.
    3. depends on the civ and your strategy. personally i find progressive, industrious, and militaristic to be best. financial is okay too.
    4. i always max growth then switch to producing scientific gps once my cities hit their growth limit. sometimes ill produce gps earlier if i think i can quickly found some scientific wonders.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
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  10. Snowygerry

    Snowygerry Chieftain

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    With just 2 Noble games under my belt I'm not well placed to offer advice I'm afraid, but maybe there's something to learn from the mistakes I made :goodjob:

    Overexpanded on the start - went for the classic "spider" of 6-8 cities around my capital.

    Ignored the new "science wonders" for too long.

    Consequently my research suffered, in trying to remedy that, I neglected to build up my military.

    My neighbours concluded I was a good target and launched series of rather crafty invasions during the MA, which I beat back only by much micro-managing and dubious diplomacy.

    Managed to build up my military to parity by focusing tech, and using several great merchants for upgrade cash; but in doing so forgot to develop culture, so in 1800 AD my Western borders are once again under pressure....

    Realized too late "derivative" civs can in time become a problem in their own right even when the "mother civ" is thoroughly defeated.

    Enjoyable game - I'll let you know how it ends, much will depend my ability to somehow backstab Roosevelt diplomatically :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  11. Hamid.H

    Hamid.H Warlord

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    do you use espionage much?

    if you can instigate a civil war by poisoning the water and simultaneously fomenting unhappiness in several vulnerable cities at once that's often enough to do it. an inconvenient religion or civic change will speed along the process. for best success do it while theyre at war with not many units left around and their modifier is up.
     
  12. Snowygerry

    Snowygerry Chieftain

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    I try yes, in the past I concentrated esp. points on a single opponent

    in this Mod I need to use the 'counter espionage' option constantly against several of my neighbours just to keep them from blowing up needed buildings left and right -

    I keep sloops with spies onboard in their ports, even then...

    Sam Houston, one of the smaller civs on my border [3 cities] has no less than 5 great spies operating in his capital,

    it pumps out 457 culture points a turn too - against my 130 or so from 3 surrounding cities -

    he was meant to be a 'buffer state', this is a very different game of Civ compared to what I'm used to :lol:
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  13. Snowygerry

    Snowygerry Chieftain

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    As far as I can see, they use them to construct wonders, but you now need prerequisite techs and buildings for that...if not - they join them to their capital.

    In fact, not having a thought-out GP strategy from the start was probably another mistake on my part in this game.

    I was able to put the scientists to good use, the merchants too, but the artists are next to useless for me now.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
  14. jafink

    jafink King

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    If you are playing on 3.4, the Great Library is absurdly powerful because of the additional Scientist Specialist slots it gives. Build it in a city with a good supply of food, and then run as many Scientist Specialists as you can. Use your Great Scientists to build special science buildings and to settle as Great Scientist Specialists in that same city. This single city will probably produce more science than the rest of your empire for almost the entire game. And having a city pumping out this much science will allow you to expand much more rapidly than normal.

    They nerfed the Great Library in 3.5, so it doesn't give any Scientist Specialist slots anymore, so that strategy will not help you in 3.5

    As you have mentioned, the hardest part of playing on Emperor and above is later in the game when the AI can show up with huge stacks of units. And because the AI is finally competent at launching naval invasions, it is very difficult to predict where the AI will invade, because they can strike any of your coastal cities with basically no warning. Sometimes this is a fun challenge, but sometimes it is frustrating. When I am tired of dealing with unpredictable doomstacks showing up at my naval cities, I usually play a map type called something like "Global Highlands" or something like that. It is included with the mod. It is a flat map (no world-wrap), and places a huge amount of large mountain ranges on the map. On this map you will usually only have a few directions the AI can attack from, so you can ensure you have enough military units in the appropriate places to defend. It is a big chance of playstyle from a typical continents map, but it can be a lot of fun, especially if you are challenging yourself with a harder difficulty.

    Another tip is that the Slavery civic is really strong. I also haven't played 3.5 yet, so it is possible they have nerfed it, but in 3.4 it is very strong. 1 extra hammer from all your mines and 1 extra food from all your farms is a huge bonus. And if you play as an Industrial Civ, you get a bonus hammer from any tile that produces 5 hammers (or maybe 4 hammers, I can't remember), so slavery can help you get several tiles getting that extra bonus as well. You will need to train a couple of skrimisher units or cavalry units to deal with slave rebellions, but those units are useful to have anyways, and the slave rebellions give free XP to them so they are stronger when you fight a real war.

    Also the Pastoral Nomadism civic is really strong in 3.4 if your starting city has at least 2 animal resources. But they nerfed that civic as well in 3.5.

    And on a different note, I just want to tell everyone about a problem I had with Vassals ruining my game a few times. I would be winning a war against a nearby Civ, and then a Civ that I am best friends with would accept them as a Vassal, resulting on them declaring war on me. This is super annoying and unrealistic in my opinion, because the value of our alliance was far greater than the value of a small vassal. I now play with Vassals turned off to prevent this.
     
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  15. Snowygerry

    Snowygerry Chieftain

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    3,5 and Noble level here...so stacks are certainly manageable.

    Invasions are still a threat though - there were two occasions in medieval times when I watched a large Greek fleet and was quite happy to see them invade American lands, not mine.

    More recently I was able to bribe them into attacking the Spanish.

    It works for players too - yesterday the Aztecs offered to become my vassal just a turn before the Greeks captured their last city.

    Since they assured me for centuries they were 'doing just fine on their own' I naturally rejected their proposal, accepting it no doubt would have landed me in a war with the Greeks :)

    Conversely the Texans accepted my proposal to become my vassal state before I advanced on their last city, which again was reasonable...
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  16. Zap0

    Zap0 Chieftain

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    I usually play Monarch difficulty, version 3.5, with Revolutions (an unbalanced 3.5 feature) and vassals off, on Standard to Large map size, default realistic speed. I've found Monarch difficulty to provide a good equilibrium of challenging but winnable games. Maps are Perfect Mongoose, RI EarthEvolution or Planet Generator.

    At Monarch and above the AI gets pretty significant advantages. Part of having more cities is having more luxury resources, leading to bigger city caps, but the AI also just straight up gets to have more and bigger cities. This is something you'll have to live with. The AI is affected by reduced tech rate from growing too wide as well, but they can usually deal with it.

    Not overexpanding and keeping your tech rate up is important. Being relatively isolated on a continent with few competitors early on can also be detrimental, as you want open borders with as many people as possible for tech cost reductions.

    Part of not overexpanding is picking how to expand. Conquering one or two capitals or otherwise greatly positioned cities in the classical/medieval ages is better than founding in all those mediocre city spots you have near you. Early on you want each city you have to be as good as possible, there's no room for "I guess this one pays for itself" cities. So found one or two, then go on the offensive. Don't hesitate to raze. The downside of this is that you usually don't form a contiguous empire, leading to border gore and there being no safe "backyard" cities.

    Like already mentioned, stacking Great Scientist wonders. The AI likes to do it too, which is often how one particular one gets ahead.

    Up until Free Market and the loads of cash that civic usually nets you gradual growth seems to be the answer. Don't be worried by civs having higher score or being larger than you, it's only an issue if they have a tech advantage or are really overwhelming with their armies or there's a bunch of AIs taking turns invading you.

    It's pretty good when the situation is right for it, just most of the time the situation is right for Free Market instead. Basically you want to run Protectionism whenever there aren't good foreign trade partners. You can see the share of internal/external trade income in the info tab of the foreign advisor window. Especially later when you are dominant and the only two or three remaining large competitors hate you it can be advantageous to switch, either to Protectionism or Planned Economy.

    I've at least never seen them run Great Merchants through my territory.

    I'm a fan of Seafarer for the +1 trade route. Financial, Industrious, Progressive and Spiritual are otherwise preferred picks of mine. I've seen people diss the free promo traits like Conqueror, Militaristic (aka. Aggressive) and Protective, but I like them - a big part of winning wars is trading losses well on the battlefield, losing 1 unit for every 1 unit killed puts you on the back foot, not only aren't you making progress and wasting time, but the AI also has an easier time building units than you. Having a core of highly upgraded units is what wins wars, a City Raider IV Man-at-Arms does the job of an entire stack of levies and costs less to maintain. That extra upgrade or XP gets you there much earlier.

    I wish I knew!

    Edit:

    Some other general thoughts:

    Unit cost is the biggest expense I have in the classical and medieval ages. Maintaining a large army is often a simple necessity (think you have enough units? Build a few more), but it can cripple you. Especially devastating to my economy/tech rate I've found situations where I fight a slow war against a competitor, sieging cities over dozens of turns while slowly build up enough units to storm them, paying lots of maintenance and supply all the while. A key takeaway here, aside from not getting mired in long siege wars, is to avoid attacking enemies with a defensive advantage. That means cities on hills, typically. Hills are very important. Also, try to time invasions to happen before an enemy researches the 4-str Bowmen from Iron Working or Longbows. Be aware if the target civ gets crossbows or longbows (or both!) and plan accordingly. I've attached a file that lists the different units civs get, not sure where I found it anymore.

    Cavalry and Skirmishers are defensive units. They aren't typically of much use assaulting cities, but very effective in assaulting stacks in the field, such as those invading you. Train them up on barbs and slave/serf revolts.

    Naval fighting is much more of a simple material battle where, assuming equal tech, each side's production is worth largely the same, for the lack of significant defensive/offensive advantages. This only really changes with industrial era Pre-Dreadnoughts and Light Cruisers which introduce a rock-paper-scissors mechanic. Since you'll have to spend roughly as much hammers as the enemy that means you're automatically at a disadvantage because the enemy gets cheaper hammers than you. Consider just conceding the water and focusing on land, if that's an option.
    On the other hand it can be very nice indeed to catch and destroy an incoming invasion fleet (and all the land units loaded onto it) before it even reaches your shores, but that requires a suitable map where you don't have too wide a range of shores to defend and the enemy comes from far enough away that you can spot and catch them in time. Given the need to scout far out on the ocean, have a large fleet and being able to bring it to bear at any point on your shores within a turn or two's time (typically meaning multiple large fleets) and the need to declare war on your would-be invader first (a diplomatic disadvantage), this is very hard however.
     

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    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020 at 1:55 PM
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  17. Snowygerry

    Snowygerry Chieftain

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    Well adjusting settings to suit your preferences has always been a feature of civ, personally I turn off all victory conditions except domination, conquest, diplo and religious for example and I have tech trading on together with tech transfer,

    but I'm somewhat surprised to see several posters turn off vassals and revolutions since they are such a essential part of this mod ?

    In my current game, 4 of the civs still standing are the result of historical revolutions and 3 of the starting civs have been destroyed already, this game would have turned out quite differently with revs off.

    I considered turning off research cost scaling to size for a next game, but I suspect that would make for a different game alltogether, without it I would have probably "snowballed" my way to victory long ago.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020 at 7:57 AM
  18. Zap0

    Zap0 Chieftain

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    Are vassals different than in vanilla civ? I used to always turn them off just so that civs instead get completely destroyed, removing their culture from the map. It was quite annoying to have unhappiness you can't do anything about in your newly conquered cities, feeling like you got punished for taking the remnants of your opponent as a vassal. The culture removal made the game a bit easier. Of course in RI the culture now stays even if somebody is completely destroyed, which is more realistic and takes away that little "exploit".
    Then there was also the silly behavior of your victim getting diplo-vassalized by somebody else during a war.

    As for revolutions, I've played RI plenty over the years and was quite used to it not being there until this last version. It more or less replaces the happiness mechanics drawbacks, just like how epidemics are the new "real" health mechanic. Revolutions work somewhat well in the early-mid game stages, but the further on a game goes the more silly and unbalanced situations get. It's reasonably tricky to manage, which I imagine isn't good for new players. The AI also can't deal with it as well as you can. Seeing a strong competitor disintegrate is a bummer. Winning too hard and racking up war exhaustion can be a problem at home (despite all the winning!). Espionage seems potentially overpowered in regards to revolutions as well, with a poisoned well or sowing unhappiness action (which usually do jack ****) causing great seperatism. In general revolutions make the game easier as large competitors tend to break up (and have little impetus to reconquering their breakaway states in my experience), while the player can deal with the mechanic better.
     
  19. Snowygerry

    Snowygerry Chieftain

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    Not as such - but of course the mechanic interacts with the revolutions since they make smaller civs appear throughout history and small civs are more likely to become vassals of larger ones.

    That in turn ties into the research scaling since smaller civs now have a research advantage over larger ones.

    Taken all together this has produced a long and interesting game - which was presumably the mods intention, I will never see all the new units otherwise :)
     
  20. Snowygerry

    Snowygerry Chieftain

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    Eh - we'll see, so far the Americans seem to be doing alright - they lost the Texan territories which are now my vassals, but they have taken much of the fomer Roman land after the Romans, my ancient enemies, indeed disintegrated into Venetians and Spanish which was rather cool or even historical :)

    The Greeks seem to do fairly well as well although they are a smaller island nation separated from my lands by a narrow sea.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020 at 5:36 AM

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