Reality Check

To the best of my knowledge, we don't have any reliable sales figures.

Personally, I would assume that sales figures might have dropped (normal way) as the ones who had to have it immediately have bought it already.

Then does anybody know what's their margin per sold "installation"?
2K will take their part of the cake, too.
 
And the alternative is oblivion.

A couple of summers ago I was headed home from work. I went through a playground zone, a zone where I obey the speed limit rigorously because, even on my motorcycle, I can't guarantee that I can dodge a kid.

As I was going through that zone, a delivery truck caught up to me *and passed me*. Luckily, he had to stop at the light a few blocks further on. I pulled up beside him and noted the company and their phone number.

As soon as I got home I called the company and registered a complaint, telling them where, when, and the circumstances. The rep I was talking to told me that the entire company had just gone through a driver training course, and if I proceeded with my complaint the driver would be fired. My response to him was "So?"

My response to you is "So?".
 
To the OP.

I doubt Civ 5 is going to be a financial flop. Firaxis probably tried to drive profits by minimizing costs (investment in game) and expand revenue both per gameplayer (more $$ DLCs) and increase the number of gameplayers (streamlining, ie get rid of religion, health).
Unfortunately, the minimal investment is reflected in the gameplay, both in the fact that Civ 5 is built upon Civ 4 with few significant changes to gameplay and the "brokeness" of certain areas. This reminds me of the Pittsburgh Pirates, a team that is profitable but sucks at baseball.

Going forward, I either see Firaxis reusing the same formula for a Civ 6. Or they develop a game design with a strong online component. In other words, create a turn based strategy game based off the civ platform that is exciting enough online so they have an online revenue model (which is where the game industry has headed).
 
Civ 5 has serious negative word of mouth, and the flaws in the game are intrinsic to the design. It wasn't a PR disaster like MOO3, however. So I expect it to go down as a mediocre entry in the series, very similar to Civ Rev - which didn't sell especially well or get great reviews, but which also clearly didn't kill the series.

The danger is that they really can't screw up twice in a row, especially with so much time between entries. If Civ 6 is another poorly conceived and shallow game it really will kill the series, and it won't be our fault.

However, I do think that it's important that they get taken repeatedly to task for the mistakes in this version so that they don't think it's OK to repeat them. If they can fix things with patches, great - but first they need to recognize that they need fixing, and second they need to get a good fix.
 
Unfortunately this pretty much breaks the second big law of software engineering. That is that throwing more people at a project in the late stages of development actually slows down the development cycle.

The first law is hofstaeders (spelling?) law. Any software engineering project will take longer than you think, even if you take into account hofstaeders law.

There are many reasons why that's the case. When I first started to code, I thought writing pages after pages of code was cool. It's not until later that I realize small, compact, bug free code is much more beautiful and harder to write. Granted, I went through a period of C coding where using the bit operators and take advantage of the return code of 0, 1, etc. to combine them in endless parenthesis, essentially shrink 30 lines code into 1 was "cool." That was "cool" but too difficult for an average programmer to figure out and it can be very time consuming to figure out and fix later on.

Good code is hard to write, it should be short, compact, well formatted, and documented so it is easier to maintain. I found more often than not, program has a way to outlive their planned useful life if a particular program/product is successful.

We have too many people who don't know how to code well who are managers and managers who are chasing short term targets and disregard long-term profit. I lost track how often I got asked during job interview "how many lines of code have you written?" Granted, as I move up in seniority, such questions become less but still, even asking that question shows me what the interviewer think. As far as managers chase short term profit over long term, Civ5 is a good example of that. Push the product out early, so what if it's not even ready for "beta" stage, you got Mp feature right? We can advertise MP on the box! Wait, don't complain MP is unplayable, you can play it! I don't want to hear all these negatives, they all work, so what if Civ5 isn't for builders? Players won't realize that, they are too stupid, they will pay us lots of money in the beginning, we just need to hype this game with pretty graphics, send them out to reviewers where the problems won't be obvious, bribe/threaten review sites/media, we'll advertise/pay you if you write good reviews.

I bought my Civ5 at Fry's. The shelf was almost empty and the clerk told me they sold hundreds in 2 days or so. Being a Civ fan, I happily bought Civ5.

Unlike Civ4, where I actually stayed up and lost sleep to play, I never did that with Civ5. You can argue it's my older age, my real life priorities changed but I will say what I feel. Civ5 is just not as fun as previous Civs. Yes, age does play a part and I treasure my sleep more but if a game is fun, I will stay up for it. Case in point, I asked friends to join me in games, even asked them to buy games to play with me. I did that with Civ4. I never did it with Civ5. If a friend bought Civ5, great, hey let's play MP, err, no, because it's lagging so bad, it's unplayable. We don't even exchange tips on how to play Civ5 better, unlike Civ4.

To OP: hypothetical is just hypothetical. Unless the top management realize they're killing the goose that's laying the golden egg by harvesting the golden egg way too early, nothing will change.

If Civ5 really did great sale, I expect a much much much better patch/support system. They obvious don't care enough to address many glaring problems and this game has been out for a while. They care about us, just not enough. Guess what, this is the last Civ game I'm buying and I will never buy another Civ game right when it's out because fooled me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me and I have no intention of being the fool myself. I will wait for a few weeks/months, see how the feedback is, then purchase Civ6 (if there's any).
 
However, I do think that it's important that they get taken repeatedly to task for the mistakes in this version so that they don't think it's OK to repeat them. If they can fix things with patches, great - but first they need to recognize that they need fixing, and second they need to get a good fix.

I can get behind this sentiment, but it really depends on what you mean by fix. I don't care what they do as long as it objectively makes the game better, but I'd rather not just see the game gradually turn in to a Frankenstein's Civ4. Grafting Civ4 stuff onto Civ5 will make it no better than a second rate Civ4 that runs slowly:lol: They will have to actually do their best to make the design they went with work.

I don't want Civ5 with stacking, civics, and local happiness. That's letting them off too easy. I want them to actually finish making their design work.
 
This is an acceptable attitude so long as one acknowledges that teaching them that lesson will practically cost us the series, if not the genre.

HOMM VI XD.

Civ has been king in TBS for a long time, but it used to have GOOD competition. HOMM III contends as one of the best TBS ever released. The warlord's series, especially II and III, were very very good also. Could series like that be brought back? It would take an amazing developer, but someone might take a pot shot for it.

That doesn't mean V should tank. Maybe they should do a cost/return model, learn what priorities actually matter in gaming, and release games that take less post-production effort (not no effort). Remember, now that this is out and it's selling, they have no choice but to work more on it or have it tank, even well after the big $$$ phase wears off...time that if they released a COMPLETED game, could be going to developing another future $$$ cow. Not only does the too-early release of V suck, it makes poor long-term sense. Indeed, 2k + firaxis seems a bad marriage.
 
I'm apathetic at best. The business side leaves a sour taste - seeing paid-for DLC for a game that shouldn't even be released in its current state is a sure way to kill any irrational enthusiasm that may have caused me to pay full price for it before it's in a decent state. I'd like them to get the impression that doing without the customer-milking schemes would have earned more money.

On the design side, I'd wish them to get the impression that the game would have been more successful if they hadn't sacrificed gameplay for superficial customer appeal on both ends: excessive streamlining and reducing the number of meaningful choices on one side, gimmicks that are hard to do well on the other: Civ AI was never very good. 1upt makes writing a good one even harder and, more importantly, makes it harder to offer a balanced and scalable challenge despite AI faults.

I doubt that either will happen though.
 
I have something to say that I think is important. I don't want this to be a discussion of Civ5's quality as we have the entire rest of the forum for that.

Imagine that you are holding the purse strings at Firaxis/2K and you are looking at the proposition of a Civ6 after Civ5. All of the worst forecasts made gleefully on this forum came true. The game barely broke even, it's $5 on Steam every other weekend, patching stopped after the first few months, the SDK was never released and they just crapped out a few minor DLCs in a bid to break even. Now, you're not a big gamer, you don't really understand most of the community complaints about Civ5 and don't really care to. You're more interested in keeping your Ferrari/trophy wife/summer home by prudently deciding what projects to allow. All you really know is that Civ5 was a flop. Everything else is a detail below the level you work at.

So my honest question to people that claim that Civ5 needs to tank so Civ6 can come out is: do you really think that is the most likely outcome? Or do you admit this has a touch of wish-thinking?

I honestly don't see how anyone thinks that the suits will OK a Civ6 months after getting taken to the woodshed on Civ5. For my part I think we'd see something like a PS3/360/PC Railroads or a PS3/WII/360/DS/PSP/PC Pirates! sequel. I don't think we'd see Civ6 this side of 2020, frankly.

Please don't use this thread to argue about whether Civ5 is good or not and discuss the premise as stated.

I just want it out of the way so that we can have a Civilisation game again not Panzer General with next gen graphics.
 
I'm apathetic at best. The business side leaves a sour taste - seeing paid-for DLC for a game that shouldn't even be released in its current state is a sure way to kill any irrational enthusiasm that may have caused me to pay full price for it before it's in a decent state. I'd like them to get the impression that doing without the customer-milking schemes would have earned more money.

On the design side, I'd wish them to get the impression that the game would have been more successful if they hadn't sacrificed gameplay for superficial customer appeal on both ends: excessive streamlining and reducing the number of meaningful choices on one side, gimmicks that are hard to do well on the other: Civ AI was never very good. 1upt makes writing a good one even harder and, more importantly, makes it harder to offer a balanced and scalable challenge despite AI faults.

I doubt that either will happen though.

I don't really disagree with anything you said, actually. I simply think we are, by and large, stuck with what is. It would be nice if Firaxis was self-published or owned by Acti-Blizzard, etc. Not likely to happen. My 'reality check' really boils down to getting the best result from the hand we're dealt as fans.
 
A couple of summers ago I was headed home from work. I went through a playground zone, a zone where I obey the speed limit rigorously because, even on my motorcycle, I can't guarantee that I can dodge a kid.

As I was going through that zone, a delivery truck caught up to me *and passed me*. Luckily, he had to stop at the light a few blocks further on. I pulled up beside him and noted the company and their phone number.

As soon as I got home I called the company and registered a complaint, telling them where, when, and the circumstances. The rep I was talking to told me that the entire company had just gone through a driver training course, and if I proceeded with my complaint the driver would be fired. My response to him was "So?"

My response to you is "So?".

WOW... I don't even care about the topic of this thread. I just had to express my shock.
 
WOW... I don't even care about the topic of this thread. I just had to express my shock.

Yeah, Civ stuff aside that is a pretty weird anecdote. It's one thing to think that Civ fans would want a Civ6, but why would you care if a random driver from a company was fired for being stupid?
 
Hilarious. Yep, no one had the internets way back in 2005. We all used typewriters (and shift-keys lol!) back in those days and sent letters to one another. It was a simpler time, when people would accept crap software like Civ4 and hardly complain about it at all. Now we can get online and make meaningless posts that don't help anything in any way whatsoever.

yup exactly ;) minus the typewriters of course :lol:
 
Jolly's post way back on page 1 resonates. Perhaps its just the perspective of age, but I've seen a good number of games come and go, companies come and go. Some I fondly remember, like Microprose. Some others, not so much. I do have mixed feelings about Firaxis, some good and bad. Regarding the OPs idea; given what I'm seeing in the response to V, my guess is that it'll probably fade and tank . . . like III. I don't see this as tragic, however. After all, III didn't do so well, and then we had IV, IMO, a resounding success, especially w/BTS. I'm not pessimistic about the demise of the series itself. The CIV name is too well established to allow to fade competely. A counter argument might claim that this is an inapt comparison; that the conditions that existed when III faded and IV appeared and not the same conditions that exist now. Possible. But IMO, the failure of a specific civ version does not necessarily harken the demise of the series. It is part of a process/negotiation between designers and players, and the results can be very good. I do like IV. I do not like V. Hopefully, VI will be an improvement. I'll wait. Luckily, I only acquired IV a few months back, and its enjoyment level is still very high. I stuck with II for years--even into IVs release, before switching. Patience is a virtue, as they say. Most of my posts on this forum are an attempt to communicate to potential civ designers what I like in a civ game. Optimistically, these things will appear in VI. I'd like to see a logistics system for military activity. I'd like to see religion fleshed out. I'd like to see a clearer relationship between resources and production. I'd like to see a leader system that incorporates dynastic succession. I'd like to see state fragmentation/reduction rather than a simplistic linear progression. I'd like more complex systems with more detail in terms of political systems, nautical travel/exploration, and trade. I do believe these things will come in time. Whether Firaxis is the company that delivers these things is irrelevant. Time marches on.
 
Those who are holding the purses and the strings are the people that let this ship run.

They won't worry a bit, since they are on salary in 99% of the cases and will get their money anyways. It's not like they love the product or anything. (not talking about Firaxis here)

It was probably a hardcore decision to ship the game as it is, but it might be a catastrophical end of the CIV-saga.

Anyways, it was good for as long as it lasted.
 
What I absolutely do not understand is how civ v manage to continue to get 90% review.
 
What I absolutely do not understand is how civ v manage to continue to get 90% review.

It is quite easy to understand, if you notice that any score below 80% is considered a catastophe.
Vast majority of players dont want to buy less scored games, though 75% is still good note i objective terms. Everybody wants perfection, even if it is a pure marketing lie.
In result, I wonder if in last 5 years there was single premium class game, that got worse reviews than said 80%.
What you need is just adjusting scale: 80% - weak, 90% - mediocre, 95% - good, 100%- very good.
 
TBH.. as long as Civ V requires steam i'll hope for its failure simply because if it succeeds every other civ game will require steam as well. Don't get me wrong i'll rent steam games.. when they go below 20$ which is a proper rental fee. Civ V will get my sale.. probably sometime in 2012 when the price drops into an acceptable loss range.
 
I'm not happy with Civ 5 in it's current form, but if loads of other people like it then i don't want it to fail, depriving other people of their fun just because i don't "dig it" is not my style.

If it's liked by many people then more power to Civ5 and long may it continue, I certainly have no wish to stamp my views on anyone, thanks to this great forum i've been able to express my pleasant experiences and my disappointments about a game that i purchased, and if the game continues to not be to my taste some months down the line, it's not as if i can't try other games.

For my part I think we'd see something like a PS3/360/PC Railroads or a PS3/WII/360/DS/PSP/PC Pirates! sequel.

By the way, regardless of how Civ 5 does, i would absolutely LOVE a new Pirates! :) I even wrote a small post about why i think a new Pirates! soon would be great timing :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=389997
 
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