I understand why some people might be against an Undo Button. On One Hand it could have some unwanted Effects on the Game (like temptation to cheating, implementation might be too exploitative if not done well, Another thing that Devs have to put time/resources into which it takes away from working on other and more important things...etc.), and on the other Hand the absence of it allows for mistakes that could be seen, like People have pointed out, as the Leader/Commander making a mistake, which he/she has to live with, and which adds a little more challenge, realism and immersion. And since we already lack impactful negative effects in Civ 6, an Undo Button seems like another Step in the "more Bonuses, less Penalties" Design.
But still, all of that (except the time/resources that it would take away from other things) have a weak basis:
- Temptation to cheating: I honestly don't see any Problems here. Players who like to
cheat will cheat (with save-reload, Firetuner, Cheat Mods...) regardless of the presence of this Button. And most Players don't care if it's cheating, if it makes their Game more fun and engaging. The "Temptation" only works on Players who aren't in control of themselves and always search for sneaky Ways to win. For most Players there is no such thing as
Temptation, just a Choice.
- The Absence of such a Button allows for mistakes that could lead to interesting Games: That's half-true. You can always choose
NOT to use the Button if you think the outcome is interesting enough to keep playing with it. You just need a little Self-Control. The Button doesn't force you to press it, it's an
Option.
- Well, that leads me to the Statement that Players will "use any
game mechanic ever added in this game to their full possibilities/potential": which is a baseless statement if you ask me. Very,
very few People do that (if any at all). Most Players who min-max only do so using
a couple of Mechanics, not
all of them. How many Players utilize Religion and Religious Units (or even Faith Yield) for any Victory Type? How many Players max their Cities Amenities so that all their Cities generate more Yields? How many Players go full Domination and conquer everything when pursuing any Victory Type? Conquest and Expansion are the best tools to win the Game, but do most Players go for it in all their Games? do all Players min-max their District Adjacencies in all their Cities? No, only a very few People go for those Strategies, or others. Most Players do make use of them here and there, but only when it's useful or necessary, or if they like to go for that Strategy in a particular Game, but use a different one in another, not because it's
the most optimal strategy. Even after I first started playing Civ6, I still for a long time was neglecting District Adjacencies, didn't care about utilizing most Policies, didn't build any Natural Parks when going for Culture Victory, didn't conquer my Neighbors even though I was stronger and they had very good Cities...etc. And I still ignore most Game Mechanics to this day, even if I could benefit from them, and at this Point I know most things about the Game, and I play on Marathon Speed and on larger Maps, where it's even easier to use/utilize those
Tools and are more rewarding. I don't care about that, bc it'
NOT FUN to me. Just because they help me win the Game faster doesn't mean I will find fun/joy in using them, or that I feel tempted to use them.
Like I said, I still get why some People are concerned about such a Button, but tbh I also honestly don't know where you're coming from. Do you use any Mods in your Games, and what are they? do you enable any Game Modes? do you change your Game Settings? do you exploit the Game Bugs? what Difficulty are you playing on?
But even if you don't do anything "cheaty", you're still using the Exploits and Cheats the Game is providing you all the time, but I never or rarely hear People complain about that:
- This one is
soooo cheaty and exploitative, but the only Person that spoke about it (I have read countless threads here on CFC, and many Reddit Posts, but can only remember him talking about it) is
@aieeegrunt: The Unit Panel shows all information about an Opponent Unit and how the outcome of the Battle would be, even if the Opponent is 100 Tiles away. From where do those Information come from? I don't have any Spy or Recon Unit who can gather Intel on that Unit, so why do I have such detailed Information on the opponent? it doesn't make sense that just an explored tile would give me all that info. The only "Intel" modifier is a combat "Bonus". Where is the logic in that? And why you never complain about that, and how it's the biggest exploit in the Game that is easily utilized by the Player and makes battles against AI such an easy Game? No wonder that winning against AI is so easy.
- And then there are all or lots of free information about the other Players' Resources and Yields, how they're doing in each Victory Type, their Relationship with all Players, how many Influence(Envoys) they have in each City State...etc. isn't that free Intel on other Players? It
is and they're also Infos that the Human Player can easily utilize against the AI, which cannot be said to do the same. An Exploit and Cheat that is rarely talked or complained about.
- Min-Maxing Adjacency Bonuses using any Tools, which AI ofc doesn't do
- Save-Scumming, (AI again)
- Reloading a new Game because of a bad start instead of playing with any outcome (AI again)
- ...etc.
So why don't People complain about any of that? but about an Undo button that is much less "cheaty" (more on that below)?
You have to realize: This is a turn based strategy Game, not a real time strategy game, where mistakes can or should have immediate negative outcomes. The premise of a Turn based Strategy Game is that the Player can take any amount of Time to make his/her choices during its Turn, so technically he/she shouldn't make any mistakes, but sometimes the lack of attention/focus, misclicks and Bad UI oftentimes lead to wrong decisions and mistakes, decisions that should be reversible during that same Turn, because there is no other Player who can take it as an advantage and jump over it right away, or by the flow of the Game or something. It's literally a Turn where everything stops, no yields are gained, no resources are exchanged, no diplomacy is immediate, any action and every choice is a set-up for the next Turn or the AI's Turn, including Battles and DoWs. So it literally doesn't make sense to prevent the Player from redoing an Action or more during his or her Turn.
Also, reloading a save was a big QoL Feature some Decades ago (same as Autosaves, which can be a life/game-saver sometimes), it still is, but now the Games are getting much bigger and bigger, in terms of features/mechanics and also assets, which makes loading Games take even longer. And during the Game itself, the Player has much more choices to make than in earlier Games, so the chance of making mistakes is much more higher than previously, like even if you reload a Save, you can still make other mistakes in that same loaded game turn. So a Reload of a save isn't a big of a QoL Feature as it used to be, which is seen in Players often not bothering with reloading a turn because of the time they have to wait before it finishes loading the save. Which doesn't mean that it's good, bc now they have to face a challenge. There is no challenge, it's just annoying. Therefore, an "Undo Button" is becoming a necessity and an even more of a big QoL Feature.
On another Note:
Why should Players play the Game exactly how the devs designed it? I doubt devs have designed the Game to be played in a
specific way. They always talk about how interesting they find it when they see Players play/use certain Mechanics or a combination thereof in a completely different way than what they initially intended them for. Game Designs/Concepts are never fully thought out, especially in complex games like Civ, where there are too many other things that they could affect or get affected by, so they mostly are experiments that need tons and tons of playtesting to see how they really translate into the Game.
Besides, the Devs' Designs/Concepts often emerge based on their own preferences or what they "think" most players would like or what would drive the most amount of new Players. Which often doesn't account for Experienced Players and Long Time Civ Fans who want to see improved Gameplay, not re-innovated one where it's not necessary. So why should I play a specific way that someone has intended if I don't like it? I mean, Mods exist for a Reason, and they are major Part of most big Games out there, especially complex ones like Strategy Games, who offer a variety of Ways on how to play them. And there are countless Mods out there that are much better designed than official Stuff, and also fit the Game much better (not talking down on the Devs, I appreciate all their work and efforts, but sometimes Modders have more Time and Freedom on what they mod, and sometimes come up with better Ideas). There is no Reason to play a specific style, just because it was intended that way or bc it's the most optimal choice. I have my own Preferences and Playstyle, therefore I wouldn't want any rules that restrict me from that and just so I play a specific way that I don't enjoy.
But I do think an "Undo" button will have a negative effect for the overall, aggregated game perception, no matter how it might be taken by individual players.
Completely disagree. I don't see anyone criticizing old world because of it. And it also won't have negative effects on the Game design, like having more simplified and abstracted Mechanics for ease of use for an Undo Button. Nothing in OW screams simplicity at me.
And it's also not difficult to implement. Even in Civ6 with the lack of the DLL and lots of other tools we can still make such a Button modding-wise. And if
we can do it with just lua scripting, and without too much work, then the devs with access to the Game engine itself
sure can. And the talk about short/limited Memory on Actions/Events is also baseless. Everything that happens during a Game hooks internal Events with all the necessary information associated with it (or is at least easy to code it to work like this), which can easily be saved/serialized, and organized by time stamp or anything you want.
Some possible Rules to make an Undo Button un-exploitable could be:
- Make "Undos" only possible for Actions/Events happened during the Turn you're in,
- No Undo for exploring the Map, when meeting a
new Unit/Player/City/Natural Wonder...etc. (even in explored tiles), in World Congress, or for any Action that relies on RNG (like Rock Band Concerts),
- Player should be able to undo an Attack, sending Envoys, making Diplomatic Agreements/Deals (including Trade Deals),
- Player should be able to undo any Actions/Events from a reloaded save,
- (Optional) To make this Feature more interesting, there could be a limit or cost for how many Actions you could Undo during a Turn, forcing the Player to think twice before undoing anything.
I think it's the worst feature personally!
