Discussion on "Undo Button"

[Leyrann]

Unequivocally against such an idea.

I would like to refer to the post above you as my response:

At the end of the day, how does me using an undo button in what is essentially a single player game, affect you?

It doesn't.

How does me using an undo button in what is essentially a single player game, affect ME?

It has numerous positives effects, and no negative effects.

So why can't I have it?

 

[LastSword]

We have this beatiful evolutional trait, laziness. Enforcing undo upon developers would be a yoke on creativity (oh, this thing would be a pain to code with undo in mind - let's go with something simpler) and their time. We would end with shallow bijections applied to excel sheet with an extra feel of overgrown chess. You may believe it is already a case, it is not, civ6 is a tiny bit more complex than that.

Furthermore, this discussion days before gameplay reveal? It is either already done or not - it is not something implemented on the go. It may be even not needed at all in first place.

What is more, you all can have it (and more). Just learn to use firetuner. Oh, except you won't, because people have this beatiful evolutional trait...

 

[Noble Zarkon]

At the end of the day, how does me using an undo button in what is essentially a single player game, affect you?

It doesn't.

How does me using an undo button in what is essentially a single player game, affect ME?

It has numerous positives effects, and no negative effects.

This is where we diverge, I think an undo button encourages behaviour which ultimately leaves people less satisfied with the game (even if subconsciously), it takes away a key element of 4X games enjoyment - the tension of meaningful decisions. So having an undo button negatively affects the whole community not just the individual.

You can't combat scum using undo, you'll get the same result each time

You can take a chance on an attack and then undo and walk away if it goes wrong though ....

 

[canadamufc]

This idea that just because a game is single-player means you can't oppose suggestions because "it's my game, it doesn't affect you" needs to go away immediately. In that case, I can propose for the devs to implement anything I want and any criticism you give me for it can be replied with "it doesn't affect you because it's my game and I can play it how I want". There is a reason we have this forum to discuss ideas and it's not for people to just dismiss opposing opinions just because it's a single player game.

I don't want an undo button because it trivializes the game and I enjoy hybrid community challenge things like GoTM. The end.

 

[UWHabs]

It's certainly not something I'm passionate enough about that it would impact my decision or feelings on the game. And maybe it could be used in a few specific enough instances that it would actually be quite helpful.

I mean, I've gone back and reloaded a turn because something weird happened (maybe I forgot some unit, or some move went horribly wrong, or I just realized that I could have put down an envoy to get me to a golden age). So I'm certainly not holier than though in saying that I'll never use it. I definitely will. But that's partly why I don't really want it. Sometimes giving people things they might use can encourage bad behavior. It more fun to know you have to live with your decisions.

 

[GIO888]

As long as there was a disable button.

ONLY if there is a disable button!

 

[Opera at Sea]

Before reading through the thread I was very solid in the "Yes" camp. Still am, but I do see the point that some are making. I think disabled by default is a good compromise.

I see some counter arguments to the "How does it affect you" point that I hadn't considered. Yes, it has value to encourage people to play a certain way and have them enjoy the rewarding satisfaction. However I also think that in the end there's a fundamental difference in the way people experience satisfaction. There was a really nice article about this regarding the whole "Easy mode in Dark Souls" discussion from a while back; which I sadly can't find right now. But it basically came down to: different people have different brain chemistry. Sometimes you can encourage someone to take on a particular challenging thing, and see it through even if it's hard and takes a lot of them, finishing it in the end will be very satisfactory.
But also sometimes it is not. Having pushed themselves and overcome a tough challenge, a lot of folks will not experience any satisfactory pay-off from having done that. The frustration from what preceded it will last; and overshadow the sense of accomplishment. One way is not superior to the other; just different ways people's brain work.

Circling back to Civ - I see the value in encouraging a player to not use it and let them ultimately have more fun. But leave the choice because it simply doesn't work for everyone.

 

[GeneralZIft]

I'm for it if and only if it only affects the last unit movement you made. Even so I wouldn't be surprised if it's a toggle, off by default or something.

I wouldn't be surprised if they don't put this in the game, mostly because of exploits you could do with fog of war.

Also such a feature would have to be SP only.

Also, you rarely do misinput in this game, as others have noted, it's like very rare, so I think it would be a lot of their effort potentially for something I would only use a couple times the intentional way and a lot of people would abuse the unintentional way.

 

[Dale]

This is where we diverge, I think an undo button encourages behaviour which ultimately leaves people less satisfied with the game (even if subconsciously), it takes away a key element of 4X games enjoyment - the tension of meaningful decisions. So having an undo button negatively affects the whole community not just the individual.


You can take a chance on an attack and then undo and walk away if it goes wrong though ....

I will simply point at Old World, where there is near universal positive feedback regarding the undo button. From critics to casual or hardcore players.

 

[Dale]

This idea that just because a game is single-player means you can't oppose suggestions because "it's my game, it doesn't affect you" needs to go away immediately. In that case, I can propose for the devs to implement anything I want and any criticism you give me for it can be replied with "it doesn't affect you because it's my game and I can play it how I want". There is a reason we have this forum to discuss ideas and it's not for people to just dismiss opposing opinions just because it's a single player game.

I don't want an undo button because it trivializes the game and I enjoy hybrid community challenge things like GoTM. The end.

Consider this.

A and B are two sides of a "thing".
50% of players want A
50% of players want B

If the Devs implement A or B, then 50% of players are disappointed.
If the Devs implement a toggle that players can choose between A or B, then 0% of players are disappointed.

Why would you oppose an option that would result in 100% of players being able to play how they want?

 

[user330977]

This idea that just because a game is single-player means you can't oppose suggestions because "it's my game, it doesn't affect you" needs to go away immediately. In that case, I can propose for the devs to implement anything I want and any criticism you give me for it can be replied with "it doesn't affect you because it's my game and I can play it how I want". There is a reason we have this forum to discuss ideas and it's not for people to just dismiss opposing opinions just because it's a single player game.

I don't want an undo button because it trivializes the game and I enjoy hybrid community challenge things like GoTM. The end.

As long as whatever you wanted to implement was optional, that's true. I think everyone here is in agreement that an undo button should be an optional extra that you can enable or disable on game start, just as it is in Old World. You can enjoy your game and GotM with settings that disable the undo button just fine.

As far as I see, there's simply no argument not to include it if it's optional. Arguing against it is simply arguing for the sake of it.

Kind regards,
Ita Bear

 

[uppi]

I would want it only, if no new information is revealed. Unit movement in visible terrain is fine to undo, combat results or lifting fog of war is not. Otherwise the best play is to abuse it.

 

[Tecumseh1]

Terrible idea in a 4X game, we already have autosaves so you can reload because of an issue - this gives an appropriate time penalty to discourage misuse. I know people think they want it but IMO it would ruin the game for many people.

I don’t understand how it would ruin the game. You don’t have to use the feature.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I don’t understand how it would ruin the game. You don’t have to use the feature.

People will use it more and more, that's human nature, so it's a detrimental development in the long term IMO hence I oppose it's introduction.

 

[Tecumseh1]

People will use it more and more, that's human nature, so it's a detrimental development in the long term IMO hence I oppose it's introduction.

I don't see how it's detrimental. It makes the game more approachable and beginner friendly. Especially the newer games have such complex UIs. Very easy to misclick or as a new player be curious about clicking something to see what happens without knowing the consequences. That shouldn't have to ruin the game for someone or make them walk away from the game.

The arguments I hear against it seem like people wanting to be gatekeepers on how the game should be played or who it should be accessible to.

 

[Core Imposter]

Instead of an undo button, we could instead implement a three-step process to guard against careless mistakes. Every time one takes an action, we can have a pop-up that says, "Have you carefully considered the consequences of this action?" followed by another, " Did you read the previous pop-up buddy?" and finally, "Is that your final answer?".

This should satisfy those in the community that seem to feel the need to shepherd the play of others. No?

 

[Dale]

This is where we diverge, I think an undo button encourages behaviour which ultimately leaves people less satisfied with the game (even if subconsciously), it takes away a key element of 4X games enjoyment - the tension of meaningful decisions. So having an undo button negatively affects the whole community not just the individual.

I like how you tell everyone else how they will feel, what they like in 4x games, and how it affects them.

You can take a chance on an attack and then undo and walk away if it goes wrong though ....

How is that different to.....

You can take a chance on an attack and then reload and walk away if it goes wrong though ....

 

[DeutschDachs]

Initially my thought was that it would be cool to save on load times if I accidentally misclicked or something similar

But if it was a true instant undo button, I would probably end up abusing it eventually once I got to the point where I was trying to play optimally. It would probably impact my early game exploration worst of all. Move unit left to see terrain, undo. Up to see terrain, undo. Right to see terrain, undo. Then move in the direction that had goody huts or wasn't a dead end. At least having to reload is annoying enough that I feel discouraged from this.

I don't mind if it's included overall if others will enjoy it but I know if it's not an optional feature I will probably end up using it to the detriment of my own enjoyment of the game. Yes, I know I should have more self-control!

 

[Daniel Boone]

I don’t see why anyone would care about an undo button, as long as there’s an option to turn it off.

In civ 4, you can literally access the worldbuilder from your game. It lets you cheat more than any undo button would, so there is a precedent for this sort of thing. There’s also an option to disable it in the settings, if you don’t want to be tempted by it.

 

[_hero_]

I don’t see why anyone would care about an undo button, as long as there’s an option to turn it off.

In civ 4, you can literally access the worldbuilder from your game. It lets you cheat more than any undo button would, so there is a precedent for this sort of thing. There’s also an option to disable it in the settings, if you don’t want to be tempted by it.

You've pretty much always been able to cheat in Civ in one way or another. Civ II had a cheat menu and save scumming has always been a thing. This stuff obviously is disabled in multiplayer and I think it should be disabled if you want achievements or any sort of Hall of Fame/high score thing.