Realms Beyond Emperor: The DSG's
- Thread starter Sirian
- Start date
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Nope, this kind of game is tough enough as is without needing to add any other restrictions. I think you'll find that many of the tactics which have become standard on Deity are rendered moot by the extreme speed of the game. Should be an eye-opener for those who weren't around back in the early stages of the game!
I'll wait a day or two to see if there's any more interest in this thread, if not I'll just start a new one.
I'm glad there aren't any other rules/variants. Keeping track of side issues can suck some of the fun out of playing the game.
I wasn't playing Deity back then, so this will be a new experience for me. It seems that a commercial, scientific civ would be good if a builder approach were preferred. The commercial trait would help provide more gold for tech buying and the scientific trait would help keep us from lagging even further behind the tech leaders. It strikes me that it might be difficult to put the free techs to good use, however, because the AI well may be half an age or more ahead of our "new" techs by the time we get them.
Alternatively, the quick tech pace might call for a lot of pointy stick research, which would mean a strong UU would be best. We'd need an early UU, too, so we don't fall too far behind and so our UU isn't outdated by the time we are able to put it into the field. Immortals or mounted warriors just might do the trick.
Y'all know this far better than I. What do you suggest?
I wasn't playing Deity back then, so this will be a new experience for me. It seems that a commercial, scientific civ would be good if a builder approach were preferred. The commercial trait would help provide more gold for tech buying and the scientific trait would help keep us from lagging even further behind the tech leaders. It strikes me that it might be difficult to put the free techs to good use, however, because the AI well may be half an age or more ahead of our "new" techs by the time we get them.
Alternatively, the quick tech pace might call for a lot of pointy stick research, which would mean a strong UU would be best. We'd need an early UU, too, so we don't fall too far behind and so our UU isn't outdated by the time we are able to put it into the field. Immortals or mounted warriors just might do the trick.
Y'all know this far better than I. What do you suggest?
I suggest focus. With current deity speeds, you can be a builder then become a warmonger or you can warmonger for a while and then build.
That is MUCH tougher under the old insane pace. You either become a builder, buy techs (2-fers are still desired, when possible. And you need much less cash, so steals aren't as big a deal), and hope to diplo/space.
-OR- you're a full-fledged war-monger, attacking with horses before spears, knights before muskets (ideally), cavalry forever, with little more infra than barracks and maybe a marketplace for happiness purposes, trying to continually pointy stick to near parity.
No, those aren't the only two successful models, but they're the best, IMO. You can't really waffle or change partway, at least not very effectively. Everything takes, relatively speaking, about twice as long to build, because the techs come about twice as fast. Each building/unit must have a specific purpose in the near-term to be worthwhile.
Sullla, did you mod back the almost-free way the AI traded techs, as well as the pure $$$ cost of techs? If so, two-fers are MUCH harder, as the AI presents a unified front. But being last in tech is definitely the way to go....
My 7 rubles worth,
Arathorn
P.S. It was a rush, in more ways than one, but I can't say I really miss it.
That is MUCH tougher under the old insane pace. You either become a builder, buy techs (2-fers are still desired, when possible. And you need much less cash, so steals aren't as big a deal), and hope to diplo/space.
-OR- you're a full-fledged war-monger, attacking with horses before spears, knights before muskets (ideally), cavalry forever, with little more infra than barracks and maybe a marketplace for happiness purposes, trying to continually pointy stick to near parity.
No, those aren't the only two successful models, but they're the best, IMO. You can't really waffle or change partway, at least not very effectively. Everything takes, relatively speaking, about twice as long to build, because the techs come about twice as fast. Each building/unit must have a specific purpose in the near-term to be worthwhile.
Sullla, did you mod back the almost-free way the AI traded techs, as well as the pure $$$ cost of techs? If so, two-fers are MUCH harder, as the AI presents a unified front. But being last in tech is definitely the way to go....
My 7 rubles worth,
Arathorn
P.S. It was a rush, in more ways than one, but I can't say I really miss it.
Charis
Realms Beyond
For those that didn't catch the game before those crazy tech days - give this game a whirl, it's quite different. I wish that one luck, but I too don't "miss" that style now 
In fact the unified front screw-the-human in trading was one of the contribution factors to my premature retirement. I doubt that will get modded in here.
OCC games - I like Todd's OBC game, and I think the minor Sharpshooter tweak is a great addition. If you do so, cancel the upgrade path beyond it to Guerilla though, imho. If I understand that properly, the idea there is to try to be an isolated OCC who grudingly acknowledges the desire of nearby cities to join their nation.
The other game idea, 'build no settlers', is very different, and sounds indeed like it has a major warmongering nature to it. That sounds good too Just don't mix the two distinct ideas. I can even see trying an expansionist civ purposefully hoping for a hut settler. I played this style on Emperor (almost) in qsc-2e, with a 'one settler' approach. Capital built Pyramids, the other city built barracks and non-stop troops, then around 1000bc, blam, I went nuts and captured about a dozen cities which would soon be doing well due to the Pyramids. The extra city made that possible, otherwise it would have been capital doing the troop production. Prolly would have tried to capture the Pyramids in that case. It was not only doable on Emperor, it was pretty easy. No built settlers though... on deity... that'll be dicey!
The other recent idea floated was a "governor" game. Wow, I too had asked for that earlier and am surprised by the response. At least two folks mentioned that was totally NOT their cup of tea at the time it was mentioned, so we went elsewhere. Whoever started that poll/idea here should start that one asap - perhaps with hammering out rules details in this thread.
Speaker, your poll idea is interesting, but I don't know what to expect from the GD forum. A more friendly audience might be the 'Stories and Tales' forum - basically ask them to set the scene / expected plot, then play the game here in the SG forum with someone(s) writing 'story summaries' with pics into the story forum thread. For added interest, have periodic informal polls in the stories thread on major 'decision points' in the game and let the readers have their say
Charis
In fact the unified front screw-the-human in trading was one of the contribution factors to my premature retirement. I doubt that will get modded in here.
OCC games - I like Todd's OBC game, and I think the minor Sharpshooter tweak is a great addition. If you do so, cancel the upgrade path beyond it to Guerilla though, imho. If I understand that properly, the idea there is to try to be an isolated OCC who grudingly acknowledges the desire of nearby cities to join their nation.
The other game idea, 'build no settlers', is very different, and sounds indeed like it has a major warmongering nature to it. That sounds good too
Just don't mix the two distinct ideas. I can even see trying an expansionist civ purposefully hoping for a hut settler. I played this style on Emperor (almost) in qsc-2e, with a 'one settler' approach. Capital built Pyramids, the other city built barracks and non-stop troops, then around 1000bc, blam, I went nuts and captured about a dozen cities which would soon be doing well due to the Pyramids. The extra city made that possible, otherwise it would have been capital doing the troop production. Prolly would have tried to capture the Pyramids in that case. It was not only doable on Emperor, it was pretty easy. No built settlers though... on deity... that'll be dicey!The other recent idea floated was a "governor" game. Wow, I too had asked for that earlier and am surprised by the response. At least two folks mentioned that was totally NOT their cup of tea at the time it was mentioned, so we went elsewhere. Whoever started that poll/idea here should start that one asap - perhaps with hammering out rules details in this thread.
Speaker, your poll idea is interesting, but I don't know what to expect from the GD forum. A more friendly audience might be the 'Stories and Tales' forum - basically ask them to set the scene / expected plot, then play the game here in the SG forum with someone(s) writing 'story summaries' with pics into the story forum thread. For added interest, have periodic informal polls in the stories thread on major 'decision points' in the game and let the readers have their say
Charis
T-hawk
Transcend
There's more aspects to the 1.21 tech pace than simply the total tech costs, and I don't think these can be changed in the editor and replicated in a mod. In 1.21, the cost multiplier to buy a tech instead of researching it was 0.5, which changed to 0.75 in the next patch. Likewise, tech in 1.21 devalued linearly - the last civ of seven would pay 1/7 the price for it. Another 0.75 multiplier for devaluation was introduced in the next patch; the last civ of seven now pays (6 * 0.75) / 7 cost.
Both those changes, while not much affecting the tech pace of the research leaders, made it much more possible for non-leading civs to stay at par. In turn, that made it harder for the player to pull brokerages, since all the civs tended to bunch up at exactly the same levels. Winning on 1.21 Deity was in no small part a matter of getting lucky in enough brokerage deals coming available (usually by being the first to contact a new continent of civs), which is why I didn't like it then. Playing on the faster tech pace, but with all the latter-day brokerage ability in place, might indeed make for quite a game.
Both those changes, while not much affecting the tech pace of the research leaders, made it much more possible for non-leading civs to stay at par. In turn, that made it harder for the player to pull brokerages, since all the civs tended to bunch up at exactly the same levels. Winning on 1.21 Deity was in no small part a matter of getting lucky in enough brokerage deals coming available (usually by being the first to contact a new continent of civs), which is why I didn't like it then. Playing on the faster tech pace, but with all the latter-day brokerage ability in place, might indeed make for quite a game.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
T-Hawk is of course correct. Tech devaluization has been changed since those early days, and there's no way to mod that with the game editor. I'm not even sure I would want to if I could, since the current system works much better than what existed back then. In any case, I'm not looking to do an exact recreation of the old Deity, just trying to give players who never experienced it a feel of what it was like "back in the day." Simply decreasing the costs of the techs should hopefully be enough to accomplish that.
Keep in mind that a faster game is by all means a much more difficult one. The Deity AI starts out with massive advantages, so the longer the game lasts, the more of a chance the player has to survive and prosper. To cite one case in particular, I was struck by how easily a number of players in the recent "Mystery Meatloaf" Epic 26 game were able to catch up to the AI civs. Many of the games lasted beyond 1700AD, some even well beyond 1800AD! With so many turns going by, there was ample room to catch up from that horrible barb-infested start.
Now compare that to the situation in Epic 4, with similar barb problems but a tech progression on serious roids. I managed to catch up in tech, but still lost the UN to an AI civ because I physically could NOT accumulate the shields to build it in time. I built a factory and power plant in one of my core cities as soon as I discovered Industrialization, and then went immediately onto a prebuild for the wonder. It was not fast enough. Let me emphasize that again: the Industrial Age went so fast, I could not set up a proper prebuild in time to get the wonder. The AI civs started building the wonder in 870AD and finished it in 970AD. I won by spaceship in 1250AD, and even that date was put to shame by J-J's 1090AD launch and Sirian's incredible 750AD (!!!) diplo victory.
The faster speed changes everything. Keep in mind often these games would hit the Industrial Age around 10AD - frequently when the landgrab phase was still going on. You would get these weird situations as a result of the insane tech pace, with a typical build sequence in a new city going warrior-courthouse-FACTORY. No joke. And how can you use the mass upgrade tactic of warriors -> swords if by the time you're ready to attack (say, 700BC) all the AI civs have muskets already? That was very typical back then.
So in short, the tech devalues differently now but winning should still be rather challenging. It will be interesting to see how the changes in the PTW AI will compare to the Deity AI in older patches. I'm thinking for civ choice we want a definite builder civ; warfare at all before the Industrial Age is simply an enormous gambit with this tech speed. And with tech so cheap, it really is better to buy it than fight for it - you just get left in the dust if you build too much military. I'm thinking a large map (needs to be to get the real feel of the tech pace), 70% water continents, standard 11 number of opponents (should provide some brokering opportunities), and a civ like France/India/Greece/Korea for our use. Of course we could go in a different direction too, if that's what everyone wants. I'd like to get a little more feedback here before opening up a separate thread. Thanks for the input that's been posted so far already! (and the comments from those hardy souls who have been there before)
EDIT: Speaker, I like your idea a good deal. Shaitan did something like this a while ago in the Stories and Tales Forum, let me see if I can drag up the link... Found it! http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17648
You might want to take a look at what he did in this thread (essentially polling the audience for what actions to take, then playing it out and writing it as a story) to see if it gives you some ideas.
Keep in mind that a faster game is by all means a much more difficult one. The Deity AI starts out with massive advantages, so the longer the game lasts, the more of a chance the player has to survive and prosper. To cite one case in particular, I was struck by how easily a number of players in the recent "Mystery Meatloaf" Epic 26 game were able to catch up to the AI civs. Many of the games lasted beyond 1700AD, some even well beyond 1800AD! With so many turns going by, there was ample room to catch up from that horrible barb-infested start.
Now compare that to the situation in Epic 4, with similar barb problems but a tech progression on serious roids. I managed to catch up in tech, but still lost the UN to an AI civ because I physically could NOT accumulate the shields to build it in time. I built a factory and power plant in one of my core cities as soon as I discovered Industrialization, and then went immediately onto a prebuild for the wonder. It was not fast enough. Let me emphasize that again: the Industrial Age went so fast, I could not set up a proper prebuild in time to get the wonder. The AI civs started building the wonder in 870AD and finished it in 970AD. I won by spaceship in 1250AD, and even that date was put to shame by J-J's 1090AD launch and Sirian's incredible 750AD (!!!) diplo victory.
The faster speed changes everything. Keep in mind often these games would hit the Industrial Age around 10AD - frequently when the landgrab phase was still going on. You would get these weird situations as a result of the insane tech pace, with a typical build sequence in a new city going warrior-courthouse-FACTORY. No joke. And how can you use the mass upgrade tactic of warriors -> swords if by the time you're ready to attack (say, 700BC) all the AI civs have muskets already? That was very typical back then.
So in short, the tech devalues differently now but winning should still be rather challenging. It will be interesting to see how the changes in the PTW AI will compare to the Deity AI in older patches. I'm thinking for civ choice we want a definite builder civ; warfare at all before the Industrial Age is simply an enormous gambit with this tech speed. And with tech so cheap, it really is better to buy it than fight for it - you just get left in the dust if you build too much military. I'm thinking a large map (needs to be to get the real feel of the tech pace), 70% water continents, standard 11 number of opponents (should provide some brokering opportunities), and a civ like France/India/Greece/Korea for our use. Of course we could go in a different direction too, if that's what everyone wants.
I'd like to get a little more feedback here before opening up a separate thread. Thanks for the input that's been posted so far already! (and the comments from those hardy souls who have been there before)EDIT: Speaker, I like your idea a good deal. Shaitan did something like this a while ago in the Stories and Tales Forum, let me see if I can drag up the link... Found it! http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17648
You might want to take a look at what he did in this thread (essentially polling the audience for what actions to take, then playing it out and writing it as a story) to see if it gives you some ideas.
The Eternal Man
Chieftain
<lurk mode off>
JJ here. I would just to register my irrelevant vote for playing this game, as I think that even though I can't play due to Mac-ness, it will be very interesting for those who did not play any Deity way back when. (And, of course, a very interesting read for the rest of us) Really makes you appreciate how much easier it is now. I would recommend reading some of the Epic 4 reports to any intending to play who have not played this before, although frankly Epic 4 was rather atypical for a Deity game, even then.
I would suggest that it might actually be worth considering lowering the base tech costs even further, to 50% for the AIs, in order to try and compensate for the other effects that have already been pointed out by T-Hawk, if you really want to get the feel back.
Oh, and thanks for remembering my game Sulla. I'm kinda proud of that.
<lurk mode on>
JJ here. I would just to register my irrelevant vote for playing this game, as I think that even though I can't play due to Mac-ness, it will be very interesting for those who did not play any Deity way back when. (And, of course, a very interesting read for the rest of us
) Really makes you appreciate how much easier it is now. I would recommend reading some of the Epic 4 reports to any intending to play who have not played this before, although frankly Epic 4 was rather atypical for a Deity game, even then.I would suggest that it might actually be worth considering lowering the base tech costs even further, to 50% for the AIs, in order to try and compensate for the other effects that have already been pointed out by T-Hawk, if you really want to get the feel back.
Oh, and thanks for remembering my game Sulla. I'm kinda proud of that.
<lurk mode on>
Bam-Bam
Hammerhead
Having never experienced the feel for Deity "back in the day", and only (barely) survived to win my only deity game so far, I would love to be a part--even if just to take a run a a shadow.
"So what is he getting at?" I guess--the concept sounds very interesting to me, but I am not signing up--one deity win by the skin of my teeth does not a run at the "good-ol" deity make. I would like to have a chance to play this, though--even as a SP shadow. So--if possible Sulla, if this game gets off the ground, could non-roster folks take a run at the scenario (obviously w/out spoiling the SG...)?
- Bam-Bam
"So what is he getting at?" I guess--the concept sounds very interesting to me, but I am not signing up--one deity win by the skin of my teeth does not a run at the "good-ol" deity make. I would like to have a chance to play this, though--even as a SP shadow. So--if possible Sulla, if this game gets off the ground, could non-roster folks take a run at the scenario (obviously w/out spoiling the SG...)?
- Bam-Bam
Out of curiosity, if you want to play a game that's like "back in the day", why not just everyone install an old patch and play using that? You wouldn't even have to interfere with your PTW installation to do it. It'd even let JJ play.
The only possible problem is if someone has bought CivIII more recently they might not be able to patch backwards. But, that's only a problem if someone says it's a problem.
It seems much more logical to me to play the real thing if it's available than to play a simulation.
Personally, the two Deity wins (Epic 4 and a solo game) I got on that version of Civ were more than enough for me to stomach
To me, that insane tech pace was kinda like playing someone extremely stupid in a game of chess where I don't have my queen or either rook. Challenging yes, but the range of strategies you'd have to use to win were so narrow that it just wasn't that interesting...
-Sirp.
The only possible problem is if someone has bought CivIII more recently they might not be able to patch backwards. But, that's only a problem if someone says it's a problem.
It seems much more logical to me to play the real thing if it's available than to play a simulation.
Personally, the two Deity wins (Epic 4 and a solo game) I got on that version of Civ were more than enough for me to stomach
To me, that insane tech pace was kinda like playing someone extremely stupid in a game of chess where I don't have my queen or either rook. Challenging yes, but the range of strategies you'd have to use to win were so narrow that it just wasn't that interesting...
-Sirp.
Has anyone here ever floated the idea of playing the DyP mod??
Sir Jethro's game going on right now has really got me looking at that mod. I am intrigued, to say the least. After spending a couple of hours on the DyP web site and forums, it looks like after the next patch release (which should be in the next month or two) that the platform is actually going to be stable from a version standpoint.
i.e. no more drastic changes.
I looked at this mod several months ago and passed on it for this very reason. It was changing on a weekly basis.
When/if this happens, would anyone here be interested in doing some SG's with this mod? Everyone would be basically newbs again. (Damn close to it)
That could be a very interesting experience.
Just thought I would run that up the flagpole to see how she flies.
Matt
Sir Jethro's game going on right now has really got me looking at that mod. I am intrigued, to say the least. After spending a couple of hours on the DyP web site and forums, it looks like after the next patch release (which should be in the next month or two) that the platform is actually going to be stable from a version standpoint.
i.e. no more drastic changes.
I looked at this mod several months ago and passed on it for this very reason. It was changing on a weekly basis.
When/if this happens, would anyone here be interested in doing some SG's with this mod? Everyone would be basically newbs again. (Damn close to it)
That could be a very interesting experience.
Just thought I would run that up the flagpole to see how she flies.
Matt
I am mildly intrigued by the idea of playing a mod such as DyP, but do have a large reservation. That is, from my very very limited knowledge of DyP and other mods, I am dubious as to whether they consist of well-balanced, well-thought-up, tested and tried, interesting games, or if they are simply 'cool mods' that consist of scores of brainstormed ideas being thrown into the game, without much thought to balance or how the AI will handle it, and which include game-killing 'uber' improvements or units.
I've never played it, and I really don't know, but I fear the latter may be the case. Still, it's not really fair to prejudge it.
If anyone started a game using it on Emperor level, I'd be interested in joining just to try it out.
EDIT: btw, is there a summary page of the changes made in the mod?
-Sirp.
I've never played it, and I really don't know, but I fear the latter may be the case. Still, it's not really fair to prejudge it.
If anyone started a game using it on Emperor level, I'd be interested in joining just to try it out.
EDIT: btw, is there a summary page of the changes made in the mod?
-Sirp.
There ia a n excel spreadsheet that documents most of the changes. It can be downloaded here.
The DyP web site is here.
Also you can look through the thread here.
Be warned though. That last thread is over 2500 posts long.
That ought to be enough reading material to get you started Sirp.
As far as balance is concerned, from what I have learned with the little research I have done thus far, that will not be an issue. In fact that is the main reason it has been in a fluid state for so long. They kept adjusting the mod in order to achieve better balance and game play, as well as assuring that the AI could use it effectively.
The changes with this mod are deep and far reaching. Just a few highlights I have picked up so far.
1. Citizens consume 3fpt. Kal-El has really slowed down initial expansion to better reflect actual history. Along those same lines......
2. There are many combinations of civ traits that in the beginning moves, your worker can do nothing except scout.
The reasons are:
a) Workers can't build roads until the wheel is discovered.
b) Workers can't irrigate until you discover crop rotation.
c) Workers can't mine until you discover engineering which is a Middle Age tech.
I could go on and on. Many resources like cattle aren't visible until you discover the appropriate tech. Makes planning a dotmap a wee bit tough.
There are tons more. In fact very little of the game is the same from what I have seen in the short time I have been looking it over.
FWIW
Matt
The DyP web site is here.
Also you can look through the thread here.
Be warned though. That last thread is over 2500 posts long.
That ought to be enough reading material to get you started Sirp.
As far as balance is concerned, from what I have learned with the little research I have done thus far, that will not be an issue. In fact that is the main reason it has been in a fluid state for so long. They kept adjusting the mod in order to achieve better balance and game play, as well as assuring that the AI could use it effectively.
The changes with this mod are deep and far reaching. Just a few highlights I have picked up so far.
1. Citizens consume 3fpt. Kal-El has really slowed down initial expansion to better reflect actual history. Along those same lines......
2. There are many combinations of civ traits that in the beginning moves, your worker can do nothing except scout.
The reasons are:
a) Workers can't build roads until the wheel is discovered.
b) Workers can't irrigate until you discover crop rotation.
c) Workers can't mine until you discover engineering which is a Middle Age tech.
I could go on and on. Many resources like cattle aren't visible until you discover the appropriate tech. Makes planning a dotmap a wee bit tough.
There are tons more. In fact very little of the game is the same from what I have seen in the short time I have been looking it over.
FWIW
Matt
Matt: What I read looks interesting, although I am a little dubious that the authors seem more interested in some kind of 'simulation of history' as opposed to making a balanced game.
*Every* computer strategy game I've ever played has balance issues, and CivIII is no exception: Industrious being so powerful being just one example. I would be forgiving of some small balance issues, but not anything truly glaring.
I'm not sure, but was DyP the mod that was discussing adding 'trait-specific-units' a while back? This was something like a year ago, but after watching the discussion, I wasn't impressed...
they wanted to add a 'brave' for militaristic civs. An early equivalent to the warrior that was 2/2/1 or something....very unbalanced because you would have 'brave rushes'. They wanted to add a 'laborer' for industrious civs (as if a double-speed worker isn't good enough), that can move 2 spaces as well as work at double the speed! That'd let you build a road right across 20 tiles of flatland in a single turn if you had enough of these laborers. They also wanted to add a "merchant" for commercial civs that could rush a Wonder in a single turn.
After reading that discussion, I turned off the idea of any modded game for a long time. But, I would be interested in trying out this mod. Hopefully it'll be good.
One thing I would be interested in in particular, is a game that extends the 'age of sail', since at the moment it's all but non-existent. Unfortunately as far as I can see, DyP doesn't do this, since nationalism/industrialization/etc comes very quickly after magnetism still.
Nevertheless, the changes do look interesting. If you, or Lee, or anyone else were to start a game on Emperor level using DyP, I'd be interested in joining (as long as it wasn't on a huge map).
-Sirp.
*Every* computer strategy game I've ever played has balance issues, and CivIII is no exception: Industrious being so powerful being just one example. I would be forgiving of some small balance issues, but not anything truly glaring.
I'm not sure, but was DyP the mod that was discussing adding 'trait-specific-units' a while back? This was something like a year ago, but after watching the discussion, I wasn't impressed...
they wanted to add a 'brave' for militaristic civs. An early equivalent to the warrior that was 2/2/1 or something....very unbalanced because you would have 'brave rushes'. They wanted to add a 'laborer' for industrious civs (as if a double-speed worker isn't good enough), that can move 2 spaces as well as work at double the speed! That'd let you build a road right across 20 tiles of flatland in a single turn if you had enough of these laborers. They also wanted to add a "merchant" for commercial civs that could rush a Wonder in a single turn.
After reading that discussion, I turned off the idea of any modded game for a long time. But, I would be interested in trying out this mod. Hopefully it'll be good.
One thing I would be interested in in particular, is a game that extends the 'age of sail', since at the moment it's all but non-existent. Unfortunately as far as I can see, DyP doesn't do this, since nationalism/industrialization/etc comes very quickly after magnetism still.
Nevertheless, the changes do look interesting. If you, or Lee, or anyone else were to start a game on Emperor level using DyP, I'd be interested in joining (as long as it wasn't on a huge map).
-Sirp.
T-hawk
Transcend
With SP5 over, I can slot in another game. ToddMarshall's Babylon game sounds the most interesting to me. I never liked 1.21 Deity (those who are interested in it - Sirp's got a really good point about simply installing 1.21 to play it). DyP - I know almost nothing about it, but just glancing at the tech tree pictures makes it seem like a beeline to the offensive unit techs while the AIs muck about and get lost in all the others. Alpha Centauri was like that.
Todd, I think you've got 4 players interested in the Babylon game; is that one still waiting for Defiant Nationalists to finish?
BTW, my own idea for how to extend the age of sail would be this: have caravels available at Engineering and galleons at Astronomy. Do NOT change the fact that Astronomy allows trade routes over sea and Navigation/Magnetism over ocean. This would come about as close as you could to replicating the real-world Age of Exploration; there'll be a time when you can explore and discover the world but can't exploit it for your own use just yet.
To get maximum use out of the sailing units, have an expansionist civ on an archipelago map, and have a non-player seed many islands with goody huts and scattered luxury resources.
Todd, I think you've got 4 players interested in the Babylon game; is that one still waiting for Defiant Nationalists to finish?
BTW, my own idea for how to extend the age of sail would be this: have caravels available at Engineering and galleons at Astronomy. Do NOT change the fact that Astronomy allows trade routes over sea and Navigation/Magnetism over ocean. This would come about as close as you could to replicating the real-world Age of Exploration; there'll be a time when you can explore and discover the world but can't exploit it for your own use just yet.
To get maximum use out of the sailing units, have an expansionist civ on an archipelago map, and have a non-player seed many islands with goody huts and scattered luxury resources.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Sirp and T-Hawk: interesting idea, but we are most certainly NOT going to be back-patching this game. That opens up a whole can of worms in and of itself: changing the whipping rules, the tech devaluation scheme, the effects of the civ traits (remember that commercial has been upped since then), the retreat-ability of fast moving units (they always used to retreat when losing), the overall corruption has since been lessened, the tech themselves had different AI valuations... need I say more? That's another whole issue in itself. I just want the fast tech pace back, not to revive broken elements of the earlier versions of Civ3.
Besides, by tinkering around with tech costs in the editor, I think I've managed to do a very accurate re-creation of the insane tech pace. I played out a test game tonight to a little before 2000BC, and it was back in all its glory. On a small map with only 3 AI civs trading techs, they still managed to hit Iron Working, Mathematics, Horseback Riding, and Polytheism on the tech tree by the year 2270BC. Whew - haven't seen that one in a while!
Looks like they were well on pace to hit Industrial Age by 10AD; unlike the Deity games I've become accustomed to playing (sitting a tech or two back of the leaders), I was right back in the "huge gaping gap" that I remembered so well from the old Deity. Four or more techs back before 2000BC rolled around; it brings back memories, it does.
I have to diagree with T-Hawk's analysis of rushing to offensive unit techs though; the AI civs are just too fast to beat them to ANY techs in the early stages of the game. You HAVE to play catchup and buy the devalued techs, even if you plan an ancient age offensive. Wait till they get the tech and then rush them; you simply can't get there first yourself. The good news is that tech was dirt-cheap to buy; at 4th civ price, the early techs were only running about 50g each, and that would be cut further when buying at last-civ prices.
So I've got the mod set up to my satisfaction (running off of PTW 1.21f, for the curious), now we need to decide on a civ. Actually that might be better served in a separate game thread, I'll start one up sometime tomorrow. Me so sleepy right now...
EDIT: Whoops, T-Hawk's point was referring to the DyP mod, never mind my silly comment.
Besides, by tinkering around with tech costs in the editor, I think I've managed to do a very accurate re-creation of the insane tech pace. I played out a test game tonight to a little before 2000BC, and it was back in all its glory. On a small map with only 3 AI civs trading techs, they still managed to hit Iron Working, Mathematics, Horseback Riding, and Polytheism on the tech tree by the year 2270BC. Whew - haven't seen that one in a while!
Looks like they were well on pace to hit Industrial Age by 10AD; unlike the Deity games I've become accustomed to playing (sitting a tech or two back of the leaders), I was right back in the "huge gaping gap" that I remembered so well from the old Deity. Four or more techs back before 2000BC rolled around; it brings back memories, it does. I have to diagree with T-Hawk's analysis of rushing to offensive unit techs though; the AI civs are just too fast to beat them to ANY techs in the early stages of the game. You HAVE to play catchup and buy the devalued techs, even if you plan an ancient age offensive. Wait till they get the tech and then rush them; you simply can't get there first yourself. The good news is that tech was dirt-cheap to buy; at 4th civ price, the early techs were only running about 50g each, and that would be cut further when buying at last-civ prices.
So I've got the mod set up to my satisfaction (running off of PTW 1.21f, for the curious), now we need to decide on a civ. Actually that might be better served in a separate game thread, I'll start one up sometime tomorrow. Me so sleepy right now...
EDIT: Whoops, T-Hawk's point was referring to the DyP mod, never mind my silly comment.
ToddMarshall
Maniac - Stellar Wingman
@ T-Hawk. I had basically agreed with Charis to wait till RBP7 was over before starting this game. He and CB were the first to express intrest so I want to make sure he can take part. If he decides he could squeeze it in before that, I'm ok with starting it, though I'm kind of at overload with 4 games myself right now.
