Realpolitik CIV - An Interactive AAR

[mechaerik]

But we can make more discoveries faster if we had more land. And with Rome to the south and the Norsemen to the east (and ocean to the north and west), we could be blocked in. We need land, and if that requires we take it by force, we must do so. We have a responsibility to the people to give them protection.

 

[Cull]

Let me get this straight: You want to wage war to give our people protection and peace? Man, Roman and Viking lives are still LIVES. No matter how behind in discoveries they are, they are still humans. You speak of the war as if the only impact it has is one empire gaining land. War has its consequences. It rips brothers and sisters apart forever, takes families and obliterates it, wipes out entire cities, and has the ability to turn a nation, no so unlike to us, into nothing. You have a duty to Englishmen, to see that they will live well, and happy, and you wish to send them into battle, watch them die, all for land?

 

[Lighthearter]

OK, update delayed due to bad weather - sorry :-(

Tomorrow or bust!

- Lighthearter

 

[MathNerd]

Sorry to ruin the fun, but you do remember that these aren't real people, don't you?

The only way we know they exist is by the little number next to the city name and the red citizens which refuse to work.

 

[Cull]

@MathNerd.

Bah, your micro skills always involving slaving and such. That would be your opinion. I'm going with the idea that these people are real, and we are actually real politicians of England. From what I understand, we are immortal politicians, destined to rule England, and guild it to fit what we think England should be.

 

[MathNerd]

Immortal politicians? What are immortal politicians?

 

[Cull]

There's a joke to be found somewhere. Nah...

Well, a typical civ game seems to last until 1500ish AD give or take 300 or so years. And we start at 4000 BC. Yeah, I think the idea is that we are immortals, but if Lighthearter would clear it up, that would be .

 

[Lighthearter]

Yeah. Immortal politicians. OWNAGE!!!

- Lighthearter

 

[MathNerd]

Immortal politicians? What are immortal politicians?

I don't get that joke myself.

 

[Cull]

Lighthearter agrees. If I ever write up a neutral historical account of this, I'm going to include that. Immortal Politicians make the world go around.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

I suppose the opposing view on "all lives are equal" would be that there are degrees of sentiance. Human life is worth more then an animal which is work more then the rocks we use to build houses which is worth more then light-energy which we take for granted.

Most of the opposing view comes from a large degree of self rationalization and what a person views as sentiance. But once you have developed that hieracy of worth in the universe it's not hard for some people to come up with reasons to put certain humans above or below other humans. (Not neccesarly GOOD reasons, but in the Stone Age most of the reasons are fear or awe of the great flying spagetti monster in the sky.)

Perhaps other civlizations are different colours, or that because they don't live on the Emerald Isle they arn't true humans. etc etc

I don't actually agree with any of this i'm just taking an adversarily arguementive position to Cull to see what his response is.

-

On cities:
Scotland = Military City
Paris = Food+ city (to eventually take over from london spamming settlers)
Last City = Resource City, to claim or block of rivals from something of strategic worth

 

[Cull]

I'm tired, and going to sleep. Post response tomorrow morning or afternoon.

 

[W|M]

There are a lot of hills in Mexico, so if the Aztecs aren't there (but I think they are), there would be a couple of very good production cities. Also, do you remember the last time someone invaded for more lebensraum? Also, even if we get blocked in, we can still send ships with settlers to America, Australia etc.

 

[arya126]

yes but it will be awhile before we can get to america or especially australia. plus australia will likely be taken by asia if it will take that long. america already have civs there so we would be infants in the new world next to these giants. post more after school...

 

[W|M]

Some civs are out of the picture, meaning there is
a) Less chance of someone getting to Australia
b) More land for other Asians to settle.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Some civs are out of the picture, meaning there is
a) Less chance of someone getting to Australia
b) More land for other Asians to settle.

Indeed, the amount of spare space in the eurasia continent will mean that they will concentrate on settling there. I suppose the main point would be wether these settlements would be held by the english or spun of into colonies?

Personally i'd prefer a strong european base with colonies in the more militaristic americans and africa while maybe keeping australia for ourselves with a summer palace to bring down the maintanance cost.

 

[Cull]

I propose gobbling up as much of Europe as possible, starting with France, and ending at Spain and Germany/Greece, if we get there, while also colonizing the Isles from London. Then, get as much of West Africa as possible, and, from that base, colonize in the Americas, everywhere we can get a hold, be it South, Middle, or North, and from there, Oceania, including Australia lie open.

In response to Ravus's post from yesterday, these people from other countries and other lands are, fundamentally still human. They might not be English, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't receive the respect you would give any other person. Is killing them primarily for land the thing you would do to another human being?

 

[Ravus_Sol]

ah but define what is human. You would define what is human by 'beings like me' because in a pre-historic culture it is near impossible to prove what is sentiant. Especially when you have wise men trying to find spirits in the rivers and the clouds.

Picture it: A culture has lived for generations in seculsion, forged a small village in the wilderness and slowly started to develop a language and a sense of self. The people begin not to just feel and react but instead they think and are pro-active in taming the enviorment to their needs.

Then: Other things arrive. They look similer but perhaps they are taller, their heads are shaped differently, they move in a different way, they dress differently (if at all). There is no communication. They have their own language. They do things completly differently, while maybe you plough the fields, they mine the hills. So strange, so different. They are not 'Human'. There is no word for Human in your language yet, no concept for it.

In the terms of the pre-historic people, We are 'English'. that is our word for 'Human', When these things that call themselves 'Romans' or 'Vikings' come along they are aliens. We have never met them, cannot communicate with them... We cannot comprehend that they are 'Beings like us'.

Thus if they are not 'Beings like us' and are 'Aliens' why must we say we are equal? perhaps they are merely animals that have learned a new trick, perhaps they are gods or perhaps they are the so called spirits the wise men speak of. But once they are something else then we have allready decided that they are worth something different then ourselves. Then it's just a matter of whether they are worth more or less...

(Note: i'm just presenting a counter arguement. In civilzation everyone seems to speak the same world-language which kind of makes things simpler although you could argue that the "we have known centuries of peace" bonus is actually the continued progression of learning each other civilzations ways and coming to recognise that you are beings of equal worth)

 

[Cull]

Yet, there are beings like us. We, as a people, know that these folks are on the same path of us, the path of human glory. Do we really wish to stamp out an entire subrace of humans. We are all human beings, just because we look slightly different is nothing, and we should live in peace together.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

You missed the point

I gave my reasons why a pre-historic people would be more likely to believe foriegners to be gods or beasts then humans. (sorry if it was too rambly to follow)
True once people understand that they are all the same people, all humans, they would be more likely to find peace (unless they have hard feelings over war, or their ways of life are incapable of coinciding) But first they must figure this out. It's not a case of spotting a foriegner and walking up and saying "hello old chap, good day what? what?" It's a case of spotting someone different and either screaming and running in terror or bashing it in the head till it stops moving. Simple animalistic fight or flight response.