Reclaiming the Swastika

[Traitorfish]

Domen is deeply preoccupied with ethnic nationalism. Domen thinks anti-communist dictatorships are a good idea. Domen thinks anti-Semitism has gotten a bad press. Domen would really like to wear a big swastika.

But don't mistake him for some sort of fascist.

 

[Tahuti]

I forgot the title of that movie, but I saw it. In the end the main character underwent a transformation and abandoned his racist views.

Polish-American History X

 

[Domen]

Domen is deeply preoccupied with ethnic nationalism.

You must be a biased person to say this, or a kind of person like from my signature.

I pointed out that there existed Communist criminals among Jews - like there existed Communist criminals among Poles.

It seems, that you are afraid of mentioning someone's ethnicity.

Domen thinks anti-communist dictatorships are a good idea.

NO kind of dictatorship is a good idea. Neither is "dictatorship of the proletariat" a good idea.

Stefan Michnik in his letter of application for profession of a Communist judge wrote:

"(...) I want to participate in implementation of the dictatorship of the proletariat in practice (...)".

Domen thinks anti-Semitism has gotten a bad press.

I think that anti-Semitism is rightfully condemned, but I don't understand why any form of criticism is considered as "anti-Semitism".

BTW - when you criticize one Jewish person - for example Salomon Morel - it does not mean that you criticize all of them. Or does it?

 

[strijder20]

Neither is "dictatorship of the proletariat" a good idea.

Stefan Michnik in his letter of application for profession of a Communist judge wrote:

"(...) I want to participate in implementation of the dictatorship of the proletariat in practice (...)".

Marx only considered the dictatorship of the proletariat as imperfect means to get to a greater goal in a machiavellistic sense. Dictatorship isn't inherent to communism. And Michnik isn't going to change that.

 

[Domen]

Dictatorship isn't inherent to communism.

So you still believe that Communism is something good?

Communism is Utopia - it cannot work properly in practice, and it was proven by history.

The ideal version of Communism is perhaps not so bad - but such thing never existed and cannot exist.

Show me one single Communist country in history, which was not a dictatorship and where human rights and law were respected. JUST ONE.

 

[Tahuti]

Show me one single Communist country in history, which was not a dictatorship and where human rights and law were respected. JUST ONE.

Hunter-Gatherers!

 

[Domen]

That was primitive democracy, not Communism.

Modern Bushmen tribes from South Africa also live in such democracy.

In one place on this forum I even wrote, that Bushmen are perhaps the "ideal society".

However, the price Bushmen pay for their "paradise", is lack of material culture, lack of property, lack of technology, etc.

 

[Traitorfish]

jews

jews everywhere

 

[Domen]

Ekhm... It would be easier if I was Jewish too, at least nobody would criticize me for writing about Jews.

BTW - no, Bushmen are not Jews (unless some of them convert to Judaism)...

jews

jews everywhere

And in posts of Formaldehyde:

nazis

nazis everywhere

 

[Traitorfish]

Is that what you think is happening? Dear lord.

 

[Domen]

Is that what you think is happening? Dear lord.

But what?

No, I don't think that the world is full of neo-nazis and anti-Semites (unlike - apparently - Formaldehyde).

============================

BTW - Traitorfish:

In your signature there is a link to a thread, where you quote Mikhail Bakunin in first post of that thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=504568

Do you realize, that Mikhail Bakunin is commonly labelled as a person with anti-Semitic views?

I suppose not, considering that you placed his quote in the first post of your own thread.

This is what Mikhail Bakunin wrote about Jews:

"(...) one exploiting sect, one people of leeches, one single devouring parasite closely and intimately bound together not only across national boundaries, but also across all divergences of political opinion (...)"

So I suggest you should stop considering this person as your idol.

 

[Tahuti]

Do you realize, that Mikhail Bakunin is commonly labelled as a person with anti-Semitic views?

Except that it is perfectly possible to separate Bakunin's vision of society from anti-semitism, which isn't possible in say National Socialism.

 

[Traitorfish]

But what?

No, I don't think that the world is full of neo-nazis and anti-Semites (unlike - apparently - Formaldehyde).

I meant:

Ekhm... It would be easier if I was Jewish too, at least nobody would criticize me for writing about Jews.

As if the problem we have is that you're pointing out the obvious facts that there were Jewish Stalinists, and not that you're offering sideways apologies for anti-Semitism.

BTW - Traitorfish:

In your signature there is a link to a thread, where you quote Mikhail Bakunin in first post of that thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=504568

Do you realize, that Mikhail Bakunin is commonly labelled as a person with anti-Semitic views?

I suppose not, considering that you placed his quote in the first post of your own thread.

This is what Mikhail Bakunin wrote about Jews:

"(...) one exploiting sect, one people of leeches, one single devouring parasite closely and intimately bound together not only across national boundaries, but also across all divergences of political opinion (...)"

So I suggest you should stop considering this person as your idol.

Bakunin was an ass. That's just common knowledge.

 

[Domen]

which isn't possible in say National Socialism.

Yes. And that's why no sane person is advocating Nazi vision of society.

But the fact that you don't support Nazi visions, doesn't mean that you have to support Communist ones.

I have an impression that all the sympathy for Communism among some Westerners originates from the fact that they were enemies of Nazis.

But why do people choose between two evil ideologies, if they can refuse both of them and look for alternatives (like me for example) ???

I am both anti-Nazi and anti-Communist - so I don't understand why you consider my anti-Communist posts as pro-Nazi posts ???

It is not a choice between black and white, it is a choice between black and black - and I refuse both.

and not that you're offering sideways apologies for anti-Semitism.

I clearly wrote that it is not apology / justification, but merely explanation.

Just like explanation (and not apology / justification) for Nazism is German defeat in WW1, economic crisis in Germany and Versailles treaty.

It is quite obvious (I hope) that people do not drink anti-Semitism with mother's milk. So we must look for other explanations for the Holocaust.

But of course there were such "pseudo-scientists", who claimed that Germans had anti-Semitism in their genes (and Poles perhaps too).

 

[Domen]

Domen thinks anti-communist dictatorships are a good idea.

We can distinguish between "hard communism" and "soft communism".

Example of first is Soviet Union under Stalin, example of second - modern China.

We can distinguish also between "hard fascism" and "soft fascism".

Example of first is Nazi Germany, example of second - Spain under Franco or Italy under Mussolini, AFAIK.

In my opinion, "soft fascism" is actually a lesser evil than "hard communism".

Mussolini, as far as I know (but maybe I'm wrong), was neither racist nor anti-Semitic. The same refers to Franco, AFAIK.

 

[Crezth]

I think more labels will clear this issue up right-quick.

 

[Traitorfish]

Franco was intensely anti-Semitic. There just weren't enough Jews in Spain for him to feel compelled to do much about it, because so were most of his predecessors.

 

[Tahuti]

Franco was intensely anti-Semitic. There just weren't enough Jews in Spain for him to feel compelled to do much about it, because so were most of his predecessors.

He don't think he was anti-semitic in the racial sense. Also, Franco was not a Fascist, but a Reactionary.

 

[Borachio]

Except that it is perfectly possible to separate Bakunin's vision of society from anti-semitism, which isn't possible in say National Socialism.

I suppose it's undeniable that National Socialism was most definitely anti-semitic in flavour.

But wouldn't a non-anti-semitic National Socialism have been possible? Or possibly even more successful than it was? (If successful is the right word to use here.) Coopting the Jews to the National Socialist cause would have been possible, don't you think?

Or would you say that National Socialism would have needed to scapegoat some group of people in any case?

Still, they did tend to pick on all sorts of other groups in any case.

 

[Tahuti]

I suppose it's undeniable that National Socialism was most definitely anti-semitic in flavour.

But wouldn't a non-anti-semitic National Socialism have been possible? Or possibly even more successful than it was? (If successful is the right word to use here.) Coopting the Jews to the National Socialist cause would have been possible, don't you think?

Or would you say that National Socialism would have needed to scapegoat some group of people in any case?

Still, they did tend to pick on all sorts of other groups in any case.

When we use the term 'National Socialism', we denote the racialised ideology exemplified by Hitler. The ideology was by its very definition anti-semitic since it picked Jews (alongside Slavs and Gypsies) as the enemy race, the "good guys" being the Aryan race. That was part of the ideology and certainly not a True Scotsman fallacy: The ideology was defined as such, and it is impossible to be National Socialist without being anti-semitic in the same way it is impossible to be a Vegetarian and eat meat.

Of course, you can hold views that are functionally similar to Nazism without being anti-semitic, like Fascism (which wasn't by definition anti-semitic), but you cannot be Nazi and not be anti-semitic.