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Redesigning the Civ VI Civs

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by IgorS, Oct 4, 2017.

  1. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    Neither Pol Pot nor Hitler are beloved by their people. I think they would make poor Civ leaders. We need to draw a line at some point, especially with 20th century dictators. This is just my personal opinion. And Firaxis seems to agree now.
     
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  2. clapyourhands

    clapyourhands Chieftain

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    There's also the fact that there's little to gain from choosing a controversial leader. A mediocre leader might draw criticism, like Cleopatra for Egypt, but I don't think that many people were so turned off by the choice that they refused to buy the game, OR that it drew enough media attention to cast a negative light on the game as a whole. No potential buyers will think, "wow, Hitler/Pol Pot/etc doesn't lead Germany/Khmer/etc in Civ VI, that ruins the game for me and I will no longer buy it." But there are people--and markets, in China's case--that will be turned off by such leaders, to the point that they no longer wish to purchase a game that features them in a playable, leadership role. Not people that are browsing this forum, but definitely casual gamers who aren't so dedicated to Civ to buy every game that releases. The fact that someone that wants a controversial leader that badly can simply download a mod gives Firaxis even less incentive to introduce someone incendiary; why give the media fuel for a potentially negative story for no gain?
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
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  3. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    Don't forget that non-academic and non-artistic portrayals of Hitler/Nazis/swastikas are banned in Germany.
     
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  4. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    Aside from the morality - and it is by no means a side issue - Truly Infamous Leaders are really lousy in game terms. To take Hitler and Pol Pot, for the examples specified, if you modeled their Unique Attributes accurately in historical terms, they would have to include almost complete unreliability in diplomatic terms and in both those cases, slaughtering large elements of their own population for random reasons. Let's see, If H or PP is the Leader, every 10 turns lose between 1 and 3 Points of Population and 10% of any Great Person Points accrued.
    Still want to play as one of them?

    The alternative is for the designers to model 'only' the good or strong attributes of an Infamous Leader, which is a historical Whitewash and can be considered espousing their actions and agendas - which in today's public forum could lead to a great many people roundly condemning your game as a Nazi/Communist/Genocidal propaganda piece. That rarely helps sales in any country...
     
  5. Karpius

    Karpius Chieftain

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    I completely understand why such leaders are not included. I know the controversy is too hot to handle for any media outlet. I just think its a shame that we whitewash history in such a way. I don't want to play as Hitler, but would love to play against him.

    We can learn from the past. We shouldn't be afraid of it.
     
  6. IgorS

    IgorS Your ad could be here!

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    OK, I have decided to try and come up with my designs of the Rise and Fall civs. I have added my ideas on the first page.
    I have also changed many of my previous suggestions for the vanilla and DLC civs.
    And of course, since I do not like the addition of the Cree and Mapuche civs, I have decided to add my suggestions for the Iroquois and Inca instead.
     
  7. Frostburn

    Frostburn Chieftain

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    Why is Cleopatra a bad leader? You can make the argument she was a better leader than Isabella was
     
  8. IgorS

    IgorS Your ad could be here!

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    We can start with the fact that there was no Egypt after Cleopatra, but Isabella was only the beginning for Spain.
     
  9. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    You don't like the Cree and Mapuche because in your eyes, they aren't real "Civilizations"?:p I'm all for more South Amerindian representation in Civ besides the Inca. The Inca weren't the only Pre-Columbian Civilization in South America. Don't let the Mapuche city-list fool you into thinking they were completely nomadic, because they weren't. They had settlements. The Inca are also surely eventually coming to Civ 6.

    I'm not so sure about the Iroquois returning. They also weren't the only notable Civilization in North America above the Rio Grande. The American Southeast (Cherokee/Choctaw/Muscogee/Chickasaw/Seminole) deserves a Civ as well. It's just that Firaxis decided to go with a Subarctic tribe like the Cree to kind of represent Canada in the game without actually adding them. :undecide:

    I'm not saying this to start any arguments, just voicing my opinions. :D
     
  10. IgorS

    IgorS Your ad could be here!

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    I never said I did not consider the Cree and the Mapuche as civilizations. Any nation in the world is a civilization, but it does not mean any civ in the world has to be in the game of Civilization. I am against adding civs that do not fit into the concept of the game, and the Cree and Mapuche have certain issues that don't make them good choices purely game-wise. I will say it again: Civilization is not Age of Empires or Total War. It has its own concept, and not every civilization can work with it.
     
  11. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

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    Might I ask why they don't fit in with the concept of the game?
    If it is just a city-list issue that you have a problem with, that I could understand.
     
  12. IgorS

    IgorS Your ad could be here!

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    Yes, city lists is definitely an important issue. Another issue is that I think that for a civilization to be in the game it needs to also have something to its history beyond a single event. There has to be some sort of empire-building (or state-building) present in the nation's history, which is difficult to say about the Cree and the Mapuche.
     
  13. Phrozen

    Phrozen Chieftain

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    The Mapuche first encountered a state level civilization in the Inca. After blunting the Inca's southward expansion they basically set up a mutual defense pact amongst the various settlements of the culture. They elected leaders during war time and there is evidence that they culturally absorbed the natives on the east side of the Andes. They were quick to adopt Spanish weapons and tactics even defeating the Spanish in pitched battles.

    Their government was very much like the commonwealth period of Iceland. Extremely decentralized but still there they just didn't have one or a select few calling the shots.
     
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  14. dunkleosteus

    dunkleosteus Lieutenant Commander

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    Why are you trying to turn Civ 6 back into Civ 5? I don't want this
     
  15. IgorS

    IgorS Your ad could be here!

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    Because Civ V had a better roster. Civ VI is definitely the best game in the series, but the civs, leaders and uniques in it are poorly designed, and in some cases not researched at all (look at Kongo, for instance).
    And how am I trying to turn it into Civ V? I have so far rejected only three or four of the civs in VI, and the leaders I suggest in most cases are either ones in Civ VI or completely new ones, so I am definitely not trying to turn Civ VI back into V.
     
  16. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    I do like ideas of recreating current civs and leaders, and would like to comment a bit on your Chinese.
    The CUA Mandate of Heaven is a nice one, combining it with the original CUA and is historically relevant.

    The UI Pagoda is a bit strange, as it is a Buddhist building, while China is influenced by Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, all 3 of them from time to time.
    And Chinese are not that religious anyway (I will say they are spiritual and superstitious somehow).
    I will suggest something that is more generally special to Chinese, like Chinese Gardens, ancestry temple/shrines (all Chinese worship ancestors regardless they are Buddhist/Taoist/Confucian), etc.
    Or just make the leaders have their unique infrastructure as infrastructures vary greatly in the long history, I shall combine them in my comment of the leaders below.

    Wu and Kangxi are decent picks of Chinese leaders, but seems that you need more background research of their history.

    Leader-wise charateristics:
    Wu Zetian was famed for: Allowing commoners to enter imperial examinations, vast and merciless interrogation to any suspects of causing unrest.
    Her personality, as described by many historians, was wise in recruiting talented people (not great works), super calculating and suspicious. And she would not hesitate to kill anyone in her way, including her sons, relatives and advisors.

    Kangxi was famed for: his military triumph for 10 times in his life, overseeing the creation of another encyclopedia, privately touring other provinces, and the encounter of western ambassadors (or was it Qianlong than Kangxi?) He was very proud of his own achievements and usually only listened to no one but himself.

    Dynasty-wise charateristics:

    Tang dynasty (Wu Zetian's era): great expansions and making other surrounding kingdoms bow to them, also terrible problem in holding the territories and spreading of Buddhism.
    Du Hufu (protectorate) was a signature unique military+administrative infrastructure back at that time. Pagoda is also a match to this period, but Chinese going religious is not so culturally relevant.
    I will suggest the leader ability and UI to be related to loyalty, when it is Wu.

    Qing dynasty (Kangxi's era): Put down invasions and rebellions in the borders, cutting off foreigners from entering China.
    Gardens becomes the most lavish in this period. I will suggest a military based LUA and cultural UI for this era, particularly for Kangxi.

    Although your suggestions are not that historically relevant, I appreciate that you have designed the LUAs to be self-sustaining and aiming at a certain niche. However, I would like to point out that Chinese leaders are very rarely religious (they will never start sth like a holy war because of difference in faith) so specializing them in religious victory sounds strange.

    Btw, "Sacred Edict" means "Royal decree" in Chinese. I suppose its not a proper form of an agenda...
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  17. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

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    There's also Yongle Emperor of Ming as well.

    He's practically the only good Ming emperor.
     
  18. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    I supposed the dynasty founder of Ming was also a reasonably good one... Chinese dynasty founders and their recent successors normally had some achievements and important foundations, and then the dynasties started to decline at some point. But Youngle will shadow the Ming emperors all anyway.
     
  19. IgorS

    IgorS Your ad could be here!

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    Thanks for suggesting a better UI for China. I was not pleased with the pagoda myself. As for the rest, I think I really should look again at Wu and Kangxi and redesign them with the R&F stuff. Still, it is not always easy to turn actual historic events and characteristics into gameplay elements.
     
  20. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    I have some designs ideas in mind, but I don't like to throw my entire design on others' post, as it seems to be a kind of rudeness.
    Therefore, I just hinted them out in my above post.
    It is not easy to create a well designed kit along with historical relevance. Your hard work will be respected.
     

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