Relic from a goody hut

[Siptah]

I fully agree. My hope is that the loot table for goodie huts wasnt finale and this was just an error in the build.

+4 faith from a relic is a holy district with 3 adjacency bonuses. Almost equals stonehenge. Or has more value than a basic holy district plus shrine. It s insanely op.

Also. A relic in 4000 bc doesnt make much sense.

I disagree. A 4000 BC relic makes a lot of sense (even without at pantheon) and it is perfectly understandable why an early relic is extremely powerful. In fact, I'm a bit disappointed such an early relic does not generate GP points. I like a bit of randomness at the start to mix things up.
What is with later relics? Which buildings have relic slots? The third building at the holy site? Do you need a holy site for a relic or is it in the palace? If you need the holy site before being able to find a relic, then I see no problem at all.

They were playing on Prince. Can't you still get free settlers from huts on prince in 5?

No. I play on Prince sometimes to play weird strategies. It never happened. But you can in IV IIRC.

 

[cazaderonus]

I disagree. A 4000 BC relic makes a lot of sense (even without at pantheon) and it is perfectly understandable why an early relic is extremely powerful. In fact, I'm a bit disappointed such an early relic does not generate GP points. I like a bit of randomness at the start to mix things up.
What is with later relics? Which buildings have relic slots? The third building at the holy site? Do you need a holy site for a relic or is it in the palace? If you need the holy site before being able to find a relic, then I see no problem at all.


No. I play on Prince sometimes to play weird strategies. It never happened. But you can in IV IIRC.

I meant it made no sense as in historically speaking. And i maintain it makes no sense as well in terms of gameplay. This randomness you mention is fully integrated in the map generation and the usual goodie huts bonuses.

In Civ V, those bonuses were quite balanced imo. Never had to think twice about it. Tech bonus was a bit better than the rest especially in deity but nothing was game changing. Maybe the only real OP goodie hut was the warrior -> Battering ram upgrade you could get with mongolia. And even then the problem is not really from the hut itself.

Having the possibility to find items as powerfull as the relics found in the CIV VI builds we saw let's play of is on the other hand gamechanging. If i get a +4 Fpt relic at turn 3, it's +5 Fpt using god king policy, which is imo a guaranteed religion in below top tier difficulty levels. It saves me around i'd say 10/15 turns production to get the same FPT output from "normal" ways.

This cannot be a thing, plain and simple. It reminds me of the crazy ass bonuses from the CIVBE artifact system. It was a good idea but terribly unbalanced. I remember at least 4 games where i stopped playing at T80 knowing i was gonna crush everyone on Apollo just because of specific artefacts found. (not that i had any real doubt about winning in the first place but still)

Randomness makes things interesting until it allows for something OP to happen.

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

I meant it made no sense as in historically speaking. And i maintain it makes no sense as well in terms of gameplay. This randomness you mention is fully integrated in the map generation and the usual goodie huts bonuses.

In Civ V, those bonuses were quite balanced imo. Never had to think twice about it. Tech bonus was a bit better than the rest especially in deity but nothing was game changing. Maybe the only real OP goodie hut was the warrior -> Battering ram upgrade you could get with mongolia. And even then the problem is not really from the hut itself.

Having the possibility to find items as powerfull as the relics found in the CIV VI builds we saw let's play of is on the other hand gamechanging. If i get a +4 Fpt relic at turn 3, it's +5 Fpt using god king policy, which is imo a guaranteed religion in below top tier difficulty levels. It saves me around i'd say 10/15 turns production to get the same FPT output from "normal" ways.

This cannot be a thing, plain and simple. It reminds me of the crazy ass bonuses from the CIVBE artifact system. It was a good idea but terribly unbalanced. I remember at least 4 games where i stopped playing at T80 knowing i was gonna crush everyone on Apollo just because of specific artefacts found. (not that i had any real doubt about winning in the first place but still)

Randomness makes things interesting until it allows for something OP to happen.

If it helps, you don't generate great prophets with faith anymore but great prophet points instead. Faith has absolutely no value towards founding a religion.

 

[jtakau]

I could see high yield huts as one deliberate aspect of the paradigm to move away from pre-set optimal strategy and play style and towards "playing the map", i.e. shape your strategy based on the resources provided in that particular play-through.

In Civ5 the resources and locations did not really shape your gameplay, although lack of certain resources could force you to skip some phases. But if you chose a scientific Civ, you were going to play a scientific game and mutatids mutatids for Culture/Faith. The desire of the devs appear to be that civs are more multifaceted and the player can (and is forced to) shape the strategy based on the map.

 

[Cyon]

Faith can be used to purchase a great prophet but it is very expensive, I think that a relic that gave 2 faith would be OK but 4 is to much. Some randomness is fun, to much brakes the game

 

[stealth_nsk]

Faith can be used to purchase a great prophet but it is very expensive, I think that a relic that gave 2 faith would be OK but 4 is to much. Some randomness is fun, to much brakes the game

Don't forget - relic takes a slot.

 

[Siptah]

Relics of ancestors are a quite common thing in what we know about neolithic cultures. And it's not like religion came later than 4000 bc either. So early relics seem historically logical to me (btw I'm not one of the stone age is all shamanism believers that are so common in popular science). And I like the randomness because it forces you to adapt. As long as the AI is able to exploit it, too. If the AI gets an advantage and I fail in creating a religion because of that, the game feels more realistic to me than 'best strategy always wins'. Personal preference, I know.

 

[cazaderonus]

If it helps, you don't generate great prophets with faith anymore but great prophet points instead. Faith has absolutely no value towards founding a religion.

Hmmm not entirely true. You can rush buy the missing GPerson points using faith and or gold. Which means faith allows even more versatility early on. After t100, it's 400 faith and considering what i saw in the let's plays, it's an easy rush of a GP if you invest even just a little in GPerson points generation.

And the point remains. If there are relics that can be found by pure randomness in the very early game and give a permanent yield that is worth 15 turns of building production , it remains stupidely OP. Imagine a relic that gives +5 culture... OP Much ? Even if it's just +2, that's still a silly +200 culture in the first 100 turns. Out of pure luck in a goodie hut, that's just stupid.

Especially in MP if someone gets that while all other players get the classic inspirationnal moment... At the end of the game, one guy had a what ? +20/25 culture boost ? The other one got say +800 faith for free over 200 turns with the relic we know ?

Goodie huts should remain one time bonuses. Not anything that sticks for the whole game. The yield is actually irrelevant as in even if it is 0.5 FPT or CPT, it will still be hugely better than any instant boost in the long run

Relics of ancestors are a quite common thing in what we know about neolithic cultures

Ancestors perhaps but relics from a small village that means nothing ? It's not like they appear as ruins of huge past civilizations now.

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

Hmmm not entirely true. You can rush buy the missing GPerson points using faith and or gold. Which means faith allows even more versatility early on. After t100, it's 400 faith and considering what i saw in the let's plays, it's an easy rush of a GP if you invest even just a little in GPerson points generation.

And the point remains. If there are relics that can be found by pure randomness in the very early game and give a permanent yield that is worth 15 turns of building production , it remains stupidely OP. Imagine a relic that gives +5 culture... OP Much ? Even if it's just +2, that's still a silly +200 culture in the first 100 turns. Out of pure luck in a goodie hut, that's just stupid.

Especially in MP if someone gets that while all other players get the classic inspirationnal moment... At the end of the game, one guy had a what ? +20/25 culture boost ? The other one got say +800 faith for free over 200 turns with the relic we know ?

Goodie huts should remain one time bonuses. Not anything that sticks for the whole game.

Ah cool, thanks for informing me

But as for the balance issue at hand, there's almost no point to the discussion as all yields are still subject to change for balance. But if it releases like this I trust there's a reason for it. And I imagine that reason is going to be opportunity cost.

As for the history of relics, ancestor worship is one of the oldest and most unifying aspect of world religions new and old. Personal effects were buried with bones in barrows and graves from 15000 years ago. Most of those settlements weren't still occupied by 4000bc, so goody huts with relics is entirely plausible. We're not talking about finding the roof of the Hagia Sophia is a wooden shack

 

[cazaderonus]

Ah cool, thanks for informing me

But as for the balance issue at hand, there's almost no point to the discussion as all yields are still subject to change for balance. But if it releases like this I trust there's a reason for it. And I imagine that reason is going to be opportunity cost.

No problem.

And i m kinda convinced this was a bug really. so i'm not that worried.

 

[Sansa_Stark]

It think it is obviously that OP, that it has like 1% chance of actually being in the game, at least on any difficulty above Prince. So no worries imo.

 

[Stilgar08]

The Devs simply can't win. If they lower the bonus they will have it the other way around: People stating it's ridiculous and that there's almost no incentive to go on the goody hut hunt (meh - lame! ). As always when a new civ comes out there's a discussion concerning "random events" or bonusses based on luck, eg getting that Goody Hut.
To me it's fine - Sure it's a big edge in the early game but why not?
Why not argue against natural wonders, too? If you're lucky they're nearby and you can build your holy district right next to it with a bigger bonus? Other players won't have that chance, unfair...

Taking that approach over the edge would mean arguing that every civ needs the exact same starting location to get comparability - same surroundings, same ressources, no isolated starts and so forth...

I prefer the greater diversity when it comes to civspecific bonusses, UU and abilities, too. And you have an edge on faith if you play as Spain with Phillip II. Nothing's wrong with it, I welcome the higher impact of uniqueness (so it seems) CiVI will offer.

Luck is a part of the game and it's fun to catch up when lying behind! And it's also fun to be lucky as long as it's not a gamebreaker - If you can win solely by luck (which I highly doubt!) then it would be another thing...

 

[Acken]

Its a blow in the face for anyone interested in gotm or hof games if it releases like this. Enjoy restarting games until you get the op hut. Terrible idea.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Its a blow in the face for anyone interested in gotm or hof games if it releases like this. Enjoy restarting games until you get the op hut. Terrible idea.

For those who enjoy restarting to get a "perfect start" you've already sucked the life out of the game

Especially in a game, in this iteration, where terrain is your guide, I would hope that it would discourage people from "rerolling".

It makes sense logically, realistically and gameplay-wise. I see no problem with it.

The tourism bonus is useless for the most part until at the very least you meet all the rest of the civs, the faith bonus is, as mentioned before, also useless, and if anything give you an equal footing if you got no good Holy Site spots in your terrain.

 

[Polobo]

Don't forget - relic takes a slot.

Ok. But there is nothing else that can go in the slot for quite a while anyway. There is no opportunity cost if these are being popped in the ancient or classical era.

 

[stealth_nsk]

We don't know the relic from goody hut is that good:
- It takes slot. We didn't see much religion play, but it's possible slot limit will be an issue.
- It doesn't provide GP points, just faith.

Compared to other goody hut bonuses, like eurekas or flat amount of faith/gold, etc. it's not that fantastic.

EDIT:

Ok. But there is nothing else that can go in the slot for quite a while anyway. There is no opportunity cost if these are being popped in the ancient or classical era.

As I said, we didn't see much of religion game so far. We suppose relics could be made from Martyred Apostles and this should be quite late, but there could be other sources of relics, earlier.

 

[Acken]

For those who enjoy restarting to get a "perfect start" you've already sucked the life out of the game

Especially in a game, in this iteration, where terrain is your guide, I would hope that it would discourage people from "rerolling".

It makes sense logically, realistically and gameplay-wise. I see no problem with it.

The tourism bonus is useless for the most part until at the very least you meet all the rest of the civs, the faith bonus is, as mentioned before, also useless, and if anything give you an equal footing if you got no good Holy Site spots in your terrain.

I can work with terrain. All players of a gotm game also all get the same terrain anyway.

This is just luck. Nothing else is required. It was already bad for civ5 to have imbalances in hut bonuses. This is worth.

 

[Ryika]

Perfect solution is to have two options. One for semi-balanced bonuses and one for "THINGS CAN HAPPEN!!!"-ish bonuses.

I agree that the latter as standard would be pretty bad for any kind of semi-competitive game. Especially Multiplayer where such a bonus early on could potentially insta-win you the game.

In terms of GotM they could at least have an option that rolls the bonuses for Pods at the beginning of the game to semi-fix it.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I can work with terrain. All players of a gotm game also all get the same terrain anyway.

This is just luck. Nothing else is required. It was already bad for civ5 to have imbalances in hut bonuses. This is worth.

In Civ4 there's 10% chance to get tech from a goody hut, even on Deity, if I'm not mistaken.

EDIT:

In terms of GotM they could at least have an option that rolls the bonuses for Pods at the beginning of the game to semi-fix it.

Actually, fixing goody hut bonuses at game start is possible solution, especially if there are no "bad" outcomes.

 

[Acken]

Which is not a big deal. The good hut for civ5 is actually the +1 pop.

But many of the civ5 huts were good. Culture faith pop tech were all fine. The problem for civ5 was the crappy huts aka maps and barbarians.

Techs were good only if you got one you needed right now which was a very rare occasion.