[Religion and Revolution]: Further Native Nations

[Schmiddie]

Hi colonialfan,

ray asked me to design the buttons and flags for our three new tribes

- Algonquian
- Navajo
- Caribs

We need a logo for every tribe, right? I made a short research through the net and found - in my opinion - 2 easy and fine logos regarding the Algonquians and the Navajos:

The left one (the eagle) for the - Algonquian and the square for the Navajo. To my understanding both have a historic reference (please feel free to correct me ).

But I have no idea what logo we could use for the caribs. Do you (or anyone else) have an idea?

@ ray / all

Is the current color in the game for the tribes are already fixed?

If not, what colors should we use for the 3 tribes?

I would prefer something with green for the central tribes (caribs), something with brown for the north american plains tribes and with blue for the tribe around the great lakes / east coast of north america. This would be in line with the existing colors in the game.

Please feel free to discuss my suggestions.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I like them both, AFAIK suits them perfectly!

 

[raystuttgart]

Hi Schmiddie,

thanks a lot for taking care of Flags and Colors for Natives.

I implemented only "placeholders" for both.
(So feel free to change both, colors and flags.)

These are the currently implemented new Native Nations:
(There will be more ...)

Inuit
Hurons
Zapotec
Guarani
Algonquian
Carib
Navajo

I suggest the following:

You and colonialfan take lead of the topic.
(Do whatever you two feel right.)

Of course the rest of us will give feedback.
But it will probably be easier for us if you present us some ingame screenshots after you have created first versions.

Some infos about XML:

CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml --> Assign player colors and flags (<DefaultPlayerColor> and <ArtDefineTag>)
CIV4ArtDefines_Civilization.xml --> Define Flags
CIV4PlayerColorInfos.xml --> Define Player Colors

 

[AbsintheRed]

The relationship of the Mapulche and Tehuelche is primarily a linquistic, and a somewhat cultural one, quite similar to the linquistic connections between the differing Algonquian tribes. The Tehuelche adopted the Mapulche language and some of their cultural practices, though still retained their political autonomy. You could have the Mapulche and Tehuelche implemented at the same time, though the reason I initally suggested Mapulche was that they could be used to represent several tribes in an area, rather than one specific tribe as is the case with the Tehuelche.

Yeah, including them both may be not perfect, but still a viable option if you want to have more natives in the south (when keeping the north-south balance)

I have no strong objections to the Pueblo being included. However, it is another tribe in the southwest, where we already have the Apache and Navajo, and currently our leaderheads are somewhat limited. Personally I'm leaning towards a tribe from the great basin area, as that area has no representation as of yet. I was thinking of maybe a tribe like the Shoshoni or the Ute. If you have any suggestions I would be glad to hear them.

I don't have anything against the Shoshoni or the Ute, just thought the Comanche are much better known, and fairly close geographically to these tribes
Probably that's not the perfect solution either, as you said the Comanche are somewhat close to the Navajo too
On the other hand, you already have Aztecs, Zapotecs, and Mixtecs in a much smaller area...

Anyway, your knowledge is far deeper than mine in native american civs, so these are merely a few thoughts from me in the subject

 

[AbsintheRed]

Just a quick sum-up if I may

So you currently have (or already decided on including):
North: Apache, Sioux, Cherokee, Iroquois, Hurons, Navajo, Inuit, Algonquian
Central + Carib: Aztec, Maya, Zapotec, Mixtec + Arawak, Carib
South: Inca, Tupi, Tehuelche, Shuar/Jivaro, Guarani, Muisca/Chibcha, Cambeba

Other natives that came up:
North: Shoshoni, Ute, Comanche, Cree, Pueblo, Cheyenne
South: Mapuche

Am I missing something?

 

[raystuttgart]

Am I missing something?

No, it pretty much seems complete.

After colonialfan has created bios for the next 3 Native Nations and I did basic implementation, we will have 21 Native Nations.

After that we will do brainstorming again.

A lot really depends on finding good quality leaderheads, as already mentioned.

 

[Schmiddie]

I had a look into the colopedia.

Is it right that we also need buttons for the other new native nations:

Inuit
Hurons
Zapotec
Guarani

???

In the colopedia they have all the same nation button (the leaderheads are ok).

 

[raystuttgart]

Is it right that we also need buttons for the other new native nations:

Yes.
As I said here, we need to improve graphics for all new Native Nations.

For now most important:

-> Flags
-> Playercolors

And after that:

-> buttons of Leaderheads
-> UnitArtStyles

In the colopedia they have all the same nation button (the leaderheads are ok).

As I said, I only used "Placeholders", so other team members could improve graphics.
(I am really bad with graphics. )

 

[AbsintheRed]

There is someone in the Civ V forum who is very eagerly supports the Chachapoya
He seems a little biased, but nevertheless it may be another idea for a south american native civ
I don't know much about them myself, but will quote a couple posts from one of the threads:

Spoiler :

Ok well I can do that quick here are some images:

Possible Buildings/Improvements:

http://www.fertur-travel.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/revash3-300x225.jpg

A picture of a Chullpa: (A Cliffside Mausoleum). Very important and distinct, mumification appears at its earliest in the Andes in these Mausoleums. They tended to be built on the edges of cliffaces/rugged terrain and are extremely hard to reach.

The Chachapoyan burial places are quite exquisite.

Here is a picture of Chachapoyan Sarcophagi which show both their Amazonian and Andean roots:

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/latinam/chachapoya1.jpg

====================================

The Chachapoya were also famous for their forts/city construction. Their forts allowed them to fight against both northern invaders and the Inca for centuries. Their round forts can be seen easily via a google search, but here are some links/pics too.

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/3468476-Kuelap-Chachapoyas.jpg

http://images.travelpod.com/users/k...tist-rendering-of-what-kuelap-looked-like.jpg

Now Chachapoyan unique units will/would be harder to implement. They however were famous for their maces and slingers. (Their slingers were more feared than Incan Slingers ever were) The problem is slingers are already in game.

That leaves us forced to use something with their maces.

I can't give you any great pictures for a Chachapoyan Mace Warrior (Or give you a better name really) but here are some pictures from a couple of documentaries:

http://www.natgeoprogramming.com/images/categoryimages/file/inflightimp-1909.jpg

http://tabulorasa.info/uploads/posts/2011-02/1298189748_e64a1601-7cd2-458a-ab99-082672503ec8.jpg

==========

And here is a picture that could be used for the Chachapoyan Standard/flag/Symbol:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5d/Abisco_or_Pajaten.jpg

===========

Some pictures that could help I hope if you did want to make a mod of them in the future.

============

Some possible cities could include but are not limited to:

Kuelap, Revash, Huancas, Purun Llacta, Yalape, Olan, Leymebamba, Chilchos, Gran Vilaya, Condors Lagoon, Congona, Jalca Grande, Macro, Yamon, Rentama, Iyacyecuj, Meseta, Chachapoyas, and not all cities are listed here (While I know some about their culture, I am still by no means an expert).

The leader would be limited to one of their latter leaders before their end at the hands of both Incan revenge/Smallpox/Spanish conquest; Blas Valera.

Spoiler :

Yes as a civ the Chachapoya were EXTREMELY important for centuries controlling the majority of trade in the region. Their cities were large (like Maya City State large), were important militarily (fighting the Inca for hundreds of years/along with trade, the Huari, Spanish, etc.). A lot of the mountain fort styles from the Inca are believed/theorized to have been borrowed from the Chachapoya.

The only reason the Chachapoya are so unknown despite former accomplishments, former influence, population, religious center (bodies from all over the Andean region were carried to Kuelap to be buried), architecture, etc... is because their sites were almost never excavated.

Only recently has real excavation been happening on the Chachapoyan sites. The sites are also far more remote than any Incan site limiting excavation. The writings about the Chachapoya from the Spanish were often times gotten from Incan sources and focused primarily on their wars and final destruction. They have also never been popularized in public (except via a rolling boulder in Indiana Jones).

====

Hopefully with the new wave of excavation of some of these Chachapoyan sites, the "People of the Clouds" will become better known to the public.

...

And when you say influence on the world, the Chachapoya had plenty. (You have to consider their world was Pre-Colombian mostly). They controlled trade that came through north of the Andes, in/out of the Amazons to the Andes, had trade with Easter Island, influenced the Inca and the other subsequent cultures in the region greatly via engineering, mumification, roads, having important religous centers that people came from miles to, etc. Oh not to mention they helped the Spanish in the revenge in destroying their rivals the Inca?

Not sure how much of this is actually a fact
But they do seem interesting based on this

 

[Schmiddie]

Yes.
As I said here, we need to improve graphics for all new Native Nations.

For now most important:

-> Flags
-> Playercolors

And after that:

-> buttons of Leaderheads
-> UnitArtStyles



As I said, I only used "Placeholders", so other team members could improve graphics.
(I am really bad with graphics. )

Ok, so I can take care also for the other ones, I just wanted to verify my understanding of the situation. But I need input by colonialfan what historical logos we could/should use!

 

[Androrc the Orc]

Yes.
As I said here, we need to improve graphics for all new Native Nations.

For now most important:

-> Flags
-> Playercolors

And after that:

-> buttons of Leaderheads
-> UnitArtStyles



As I said, I only used "Placeholders", so other team members could improve graphics.
(I am really bad with graphics. )

Most of those graphics are already available in ColGold:

Flag DECALs:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion and Revolution/FlagDECAL_Guarani.dds
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion and Revolution/FlagDECAL_Huron.dds
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion and Revolution/FlagDECAL_Inuit.dds
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion and Revolution/FlagDECAL_Zapotec.dds

Civilization Buttons:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion and Revolution/GuaraniBTN.dds
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion and Revolution/HuronBTN.dds
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion and Revolution/InuitBTN.dds
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion and Revolution/Zapotec.dds

Leader Button:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1732902/Colonization/Religion and Revolution/PytajovaiBTN.dds

 

[Schmiddie]

Thanks for that, its very usefull

 

[Schmiddie]

I have changed the colours for our new native nations.

Please note: This is not final. Maybe there are further little changes necessary to adjust the new colours with the buttons/flags I will make the next days.

But it is a first tendency (also nearly in line with the buttons above).

Feel free to test my changes.

 

[colonialfan]

Hi Schmiddie,

Great work on the symbols you found.

The Navajo one is very good, and consistent with popular Navajo tribal patterns that they used, i.e, diamond shapes. As for the Algonquian you are correct that the image of the bird is important. As with the majority of native civs in the America's and especially north America, the veneration of animals was culturally common and significant. The only concern I have with the image you supplied is that it is very similar to the one used by the Cherokee civ. There are no hard and fast rules that say we cannot also use a bird for the Algonquian, but if we are going to use a bird we should probably try to find a different looking one. Other options could be to use a patterned symbol of some kind or use another animal, an elk (or its horns), a bear, or a snake perhaps.

As you are aware native civs did not have flags or banners, like their European counterparts, and native american flags are the product of the late 19th early 20th century. So as along as an image fits culturally (and I use that term very loosely) we can use a variety of images.

In regards to the Inuit and Hurons, I believe KJ did some work on their flags. The images he used, especially for the Huron are correct, you can find them in the Leader Bio's, Civ Info, Text, etc. thread, posts #4 & #15. I haven't spoken to Ray about this, but I am assuming that we will be using the pre-existing flags that come with the civs in TAC. I haven't scruntinized them too closely but from what I saw those flags appear historically acceptable.

I've taken the liberty of including a few bird variants for the Algonquian and included a few other animals just to give a visual idea, we don't have to use any of them.

View attachment 315469

View attachment 315470

View attachment 315471

View attachment 315472

View attachment 315473

View attachment 315474

View attachment 315475


I've also added an a few crude images I found that represent pictorial glyphs found in Caribbean caves. I doubt they were made by the Carib (they are far too early), but we could perhaps use them or something similar, just for variety sake.

View attachment 315476

View attachment 315477


Also I found a Zapotec image, that might be useful.

View attachment 315478

Unfortunately I cannot seem to view the flags Androrc put in his post, so I cannot comment on them. If I cannot open them I might assk you to save tham as an attachment and post them in the thread so I can view them.

Hope this gives you some ideas, and please feel free to throw in your own ideas and suggestions, the more the better.

 

[colonialfan]

Absinthered,

Thank you for your post on the Chachapoya, the information was very interesting.
I briefly considered this civ, but decided against them in the end, due to two points. Firstly, they were conquered by the Inca, in the second half of the 15th century, before the Spanish arrived, and so were a subjucated people under Inca rule by the time Pizzaro and the conquistadores entered Peru. Secondly, we already had the Inca and Shuar civs in that area. If you are playing on a fictional map, this does not apply and is no problem, but if you are playing on a historical map, it might make things a little crowded. I know we have several civs in smaller areas like in Meso-America, but ideally I would like to have at least one tribe in the major geographical regions on each continent.

Like the Mapulche, the Chachapoya are certainly a future civ to consider, and both these civs would be great to pursue if someone was interested in making a South American Mod.

If you come across any other civs you think might be useful or appropriate, please feel free to mention them, the team is always open to suggestions.

 

[Schmiddie]

Thanks colonialfan for your input. I will finish the buttons today.

But I have a problem with your links... If I try to open the images, I get this info:

"Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

Can you check please?

 

[colonialfan]

Hi Schmiddie,

Here are the images from yesterday, I'm not sure why they did not open but anyhow here they are. Again they are pretty basic and sadly quite generic, but I included them just to give you an idea of the kind of images that would probably would have been plausible, in terms of shapes, colors etc. Ideally we will be able to find much better images.

Algonquian Images






Carib Images




Zapotec Image



I still cannot view Androrc's images. If you can view them, is there any way that you could post them in the thread as an attachment to view? They might be better than what we currently have and save us a lot of digging around for other images.

 

[Schmiddie]

edit -

 

[Robert Surcouf]

I don't believe my eyes

You really are good. (I mean both of you, Colonialfan for the flags and Shmiddie for the icons)

Great work!

 

[Schmiddie]

Hi Folks,

I told you I wanted to finish the buttons AND flags today...hm, I had to lern, that it will take some time to make "the perfect" (I'm a perfectionist) buttons and flags for the new nations.

Here are the flag and the button for the zapotec (next will follow). Please don't wonder about the unit graphic, we will change them on short notice:

And here are the buttons I have already finished and implemented in the game (they are not uploaded at the moment):

First Row: (Portugal and King and Shuar are not new), but: Inuit, Zapotec, Huron and Guarani and Algonquian.
Second Row: Caribs and Navajo.

Flags will follow.