Religion game balance

[Antiquado]

Hi all.

I know this has been debated before, but in our multiplayer FFH2 group, we have tried to rate the strengths and weaknesses of the different religions, based on "neutral" civs that gain no particular bonuses for specific religions (like the ljosalfar for converting to FoL).

The results (see details below) were as follows:

Ashen Veil (2700): 33 point
Empiryan: 22 point
Order (3900): 21 point
Fellowship of the Leaves (1900): 21 point
Runes of Killmorph (1600): 20 point
Council of Esus (4500): 12 point
(Numbers in paranthesis is the tech points it takes to get there)

We are very interested in hearing feedback, since the numbers below represent our general "feel" very well, and would call for balancing thoughts on the Ashen Veil and Council of Esus religions, specifically. Ourselves, we have had to implement a "gentleman's rule" that Ritualists may not use the Ring of Flames spell, since after having played around 200 games with latest patches it seemed less and less fruitful to use other religions than Ashen Veil. Council of Esus is almost never used (although the race to start it to gain Nox Noctis is always on).

The method used was to give a given area 1-10 points based on individual strength (so typically the strongest religion would have the 10, and the others something less in comparison). Also, we tried to weigh in the research points it took to research each religion, unit or tech - e.g. Bambur isn't strong but you can get him early on.

Note: We weren't able to rate the Octopus Overlords, since all our games take place on the Fantasy_Realm map (due to the brilliant Irrational/randomized distribution of terrain and ressources, that makes sure no one player starts in a jungle). There are no oceans on the Fantasy realm. Oh what I wouldn't give to be able to merge Fantasy_Realm and Pangea/Islands ;-)

Details:

Ashen Veil (2700): 33 point

Heroes: 10 point
Rosier: str 8
Mardero: 14 (mal.design)
Meshaber: 31 (AC:70)

Priest: 10 point
Ring of Flames
HP: Summon Balor

Features: 3 point
Demons Altar
Sacrifice

Units: 10 point
Beast of Agaras 16 (4 limit)
deseased corpses 6 (disease)


Order (3900): 21 point

Heroes: 9 point
Valin: 8 (orders)
Sphener: 16 (rightiousness)

Priest: 4 point
Bless (+1 str)
HP: Unyielding order

Features: 4 point
Social order civic
Basilica
Crusader when religion spreads

Units: 2 points
Crusader 7


Fellowship of the Leaves (1900): 21 point

Heroes: 4 point
Kithra Kyril: 8 (Feral bond)
Yvain: 11 (commune)

Priests: 5 point
Bloom + summon tiger
HP: Summon Treant

Features: 10 points
Ancient forest
Treant appears
Hidden paths civic

Units: 2 point
Fawns -> Satyr

Council of Esus (4500): 12 point

Heroes: 3 point
Gibbon Goetia 5 + magi
Priests: 0 point

Priests: 0 point
None

Features: 8 point
Steal
Mask
Spread council of Esus
Remain within borders when declaring war
Nox Noctia

Units: 1 point
Shadows (can be build by all religions if just one city has Esus)


Runes of Killmorph (1600): 20 point

Heroes: 8 point
Bambur 5
Arthendir 9
Mitrhil Golem 25 (AC70)

Priests: 4 point
Shield of faith (+10%)
HP: Earthquake

Features: 5 point
+ gold
Arete (3 iron)

Units: 3 point
Paramander 7
Soldier of Killmorph 4


Empiryan: 22 point

Heroes: 7 point
Chalid Astrahin 9

Priests: 4 point
Revelation
HP: Crown of Brilliance

Features: 2 points
Reveals invisible units in your own homeland
+1 vote in overcouncil

Units: 9 points
Radiant Guard
Ratha

 

[Breunor]

One issue is how quickly you can get it up and running; RoK and FoL are easier and can get your empire up and running at a time when the relative benefits are greater. As an example, Bambur's enchanted blade spell is very pewerful early inthe game before you have adepts that can cast it.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Tlalynet]

If you arn't counting OO because of no oceans shouldn't you exclude Esus if you're only rating for multiplayer? Hidden nationality doesn't really work right when you play another human. You pretty well know where your threat is coming from. The dilpo neutrality doesn't apply in MP either.

Beyond that what is the balance issue? Ring of Flames? Diseased corpses? Take out those and their points would be the same according to you.

Of course blessed order priests would slaughter AV priests in melee combat if they get the jump on them, and Crusaders beat corpses, and AV should have hell terrain to deal with too.

I would think ring of flames would be much less useful in multiplayer since humans don't have to stack like the AI does, priests would have to fan out and their stacks would be much more vulnerable, and ring of flames wouldn't hit more than 5 or 6 units if a human opponent knew what was coming and spread their troops out better. Unless they are using Ring of Flames to kill AI that you include in your games, that I could see as being cheap.

 

[Emptiness]

I think that the conditions under which your ratings were generated (one specific group of players, one specific map type, no water tiles, one religion excluded, arbitrary assignment of point values, and failure to account for all the advantages of some of the religions) make them an unsuitable justification for a rebalance of the mod.

Just to address one point, perhaps Ritualists would seem less overpowered if one of your group was to play as Jonas Endain, convert to RoK, and then promote his Priests of Kilmorph with Combat I-III, Magic Resistance, and Resist Fire (which would give them 95% fire resistance). Anything will seem powerful if no one uses a counter-strategy.

 

[DaveGold]

Would it be possible to allow only CoE nations to build shadows and restrict other nations to promoting recon units with CoE religion to shadows, i.e. either the unit or the nation requires the religion? At the moment the building city needs the religion only. Other than that I don't think the CoE are dangerously weak, apart from the computer needing more AI to use it well.

The CoE unit listing didn't include the nightwatch, who can situationally be useful as hidden nationality units. Not a great military advantage over longbowment admittedly.

The CoE could netherless use a little economic boost perhaps, given that it is behind on priests, temples, happiness, culture, buffs, heroes, etc. Perhaps some of the CoE units could be automatically promoted with bounty hunter?

 

[Valkrionn]

Hmm... Wonder how the White Hand as implemented in RifE would be rated?

Good summary of it in it's thread, will quote it here:

Spoiler :

Okay, the White Hand is now fully implemented (Barring art and music, get to that later). Going to describe the changes, and any changes to the Illians, in this post. This should be everything... If I miss something, I apologize.

1. Founding
   • The religion may be founded by anyone who researches the 'White Hand' technology, available after Priesthood. This tech works just like other religious techs, unlocking the units/temple.
   • The Illians/Frozen may found the religion with the White Hand ritual, which is available with Philosophy. This gives them a full two tech head start, but they are still not guaranteed to found it.
2. Units
   • Military
     1. Frostling Archer - Stronger than the normal
        • 3, 4 Defense
        • 1
        • 1 Range
        • 4 Air Attack
        • 1 First Strike
        • 25% Hill, City Defense
        • 20% Defensive Strike Chance
        • 10% Defensive Strike Damage
     2. Frost Giant - Requires Rage.
        • 7 (+3 Cold), 5 Defense (+3 Cold)
        • 1
        • May not enter Desert
        • +20% attack/defense in Snow, +10% in Tundra
        • 15% Bombard rate
        • Starts with Sentry, Immune to Cold, Vulnerable to Fire.
     3. Fiacra - Hero
        • 4 (+2 Cold), 5 Defense (+2 Cold)
        • 3
        • No Defensive Bonuses
        • Starts with Channeling 1, Channeling 2, Flying, Ice 1, Blizzard Caller (Allows calling of blizzards, as with Priests of Winter)
     4. Drifa - Hero
        • Stir from Slumber now only requires Divine Essence, White Hand state religion, and for you to have killed a civ.
   • Religious Units
     1. Disciple of Winter - Standard disciple, starts with Winterborn and Blizzard Caller.
     2. Priest of Winter - Slightly nerfed, lose 1. 3 named variants from the ritual gain an extra strength point on creation.
     3. Highpriest of Winter - Same as current
3. Buildings
   • Temple of the Hand - All python effects removed.
   • Citadel of the Hand (Horrible name, feel free to suggest a better one) - Shrine. Provides Ice Mana, +10% , +10% . Does NOT grant yields for every city with the religion, I decided this was too powerful given which yield the religion grants.
4. Religious Yields/Effects
   • Grants +1 to the city, +2 extra if Holy City.
   • Using Jean Elcard's ClimateSystem, the White Hand will slowly freeze your empire. Religious Climate overwrites Civ Climate, so even Malakim will have to deal with Ice while following this religion.
     • Climate becomes Glacial - New terrain type Glacier. Same appearance as Ice, gains +1 . All civ yields on Ice applied to Glacier (+2 Illian, +1 Doviello/Jotnar).
     • All river glacial tiles gain Crystal Plains - +1, +1
   • Any White Hand civ may complete the Deepening ritual.
5. Illian/Frozen Changes
   • Auric and Taranis gain the Ice Touched trait - Grants no anarchy, contains a help key stating the leader may ONLY adopt the White Hand.
   • If either leader completes Ascension, ALL White Hand civs become vassals. This can lead to a human player being vassalized by an AI - This does NOT cause issues, and the AI seems to handle it quite well (Immediately demanded my Enchantment Mana ). This is a peaceful vassalization, even if you were at war, so it may be revoked after several turns.
   • Auric (Leader) now gains Auric (Unit) on game start, similar to Korrina.
     • 4
     • 1
     • 2 Command Limit
     • Death will remove all traits from the player.
     • Can upgrade with Priesthood to Auric Winter (XML name only, name remains Auric... Feel free to suggest a title)
       • Essentially a Priest of Winter with a command limit.
       • Gains 1 Cold Damage
       • Gains the White Hand religion
       • Gains 2 additional Command Limit, 1 additional Command Range (Total of 3)
       • Starts with Divine, Channeling 1, Channeling 2, Ice 1, Winterborn, Medic 1, Immune to Cold, Blizzard Caller
   • New Illian leader from LENA, Raitlor. She represents Auric's successor after the Scenarios, and is able to adopt any religion. She is unable to complete the Draw or Ascension.
     • Has the Trader trait - +50% , +50% from trade. Starts with 50
     • Emergent

 

[Lone Wolf]

CoE listing also doesn't include Shadowriders. Though Esus still sucks.

 

[Onionsoilder]

I think you're severely underestimating Empyrean and CoE.

Chalid is far better than you think. In fact, he might be the strongest religious hero in the game. He's available very early on and can cut a stack of units down to 25% HP in a single turn, his strength can be boosted with sun mana, and unlike Meshabber or The Mithril Golem, doesn't require an AC count to build and can prevent the AC from ever rising.

Gibbon is also a stronger hero, though not as good as Chalid. He is the earliest archmage in the game, which means you can get Domination or Snowfall, some of the strongest spells, very early. He's especially with the Balseraphs because their Puppets can duplicate his strength. That is somewhat situational though.

Nox Noctis is the strongest defensive wonder available. Combined with something like Slow or Blinding Light, you can completely prevent an opponent from attacking you. Also, you don't need to follow Esus to use it, only have the holycity(which is easy to do if you already founded Empyrean)

AV is still very powerful... just not as dominant as you place it. Far from the ultimate religion. Also keep in mind that to utilize some of it's effects, you have to have a high AC count... and for 18/21 civilizations, a high AC is very bad(not excellent for those 3, but it hurts their foes more than it hurts them)

 

[seizer]

One easy way of improving Esus would be to move shadowriders earlier in the tech tree. Warhorses comes so late, and competes with better techs that cost about the same, that the units it provides are largely irrelevant in most games. Have them require horseback riding and deception and reduce base to 4, cost to 180 and remove national limit.

 

[Antiquado]

Wow - that was a lot of feedback, and fast - thanks, everyone
I'll try to comment below:

One issue is how quickly you can get it up and running; RoK and FoL are easier and can get your empire up and running at a time when the relative benefits are greater. As an example, Bambur's enchanted blade spell is very pewerful early inthe game before you have adepts that can cast it.

Agreed - We tried to factor this out in the shown ratings by comparing to similar techs and considering combinations. For instance, by comparing unit strength with going "The Iron Way" and achieving Axemen/champions by using the same amount of tech points

If you arn't counting OO because of no oceans shouldn't you exclude Esus if you're only rating for multiplayer? Hidden nationality doesn't really work right when you play another human. You pretty well know where your threat is coming from. The dilpo neutrality doesn't apply in MP either.

You're right. Most of us have almost completely stopped playing single-player. The comparisons are probably irrelevant when playing against AI, since that is more a matter of "playing smarter against overwhelming odds" than balancing.

Beyond that what is the balance issue? Ring of Flames? Diseased corpses? Take out those and their points would be the same according to you.

I agree, but especially the diseased corpses are simply so cool an idea that it almost makes me cry if they were excluded from the game ;-) I think penalizing Ashen Viel some other way would be preferable.

Of course blessed order priests would slaughter AV priests in melee combat if they get the jump on them, and Crusaders beat corpses, and AV should have hell terrain to deal with too.

Agreed. I've never seen a full-scale priest vs. priest war, though
Crusaders are rated weaker since they appear much later in the game (also relative to going for champions).

I would think ring of flames would be much less useful in multiplayer since humans don't have to stack like the AI does, priests would have to fan out and their stacks would be much more vulnerable, and ring of flames wouldn't hit more than 5 or 6 units if a human opponent knew what was coming and spread their troops out better. Unless they are using Ring of Flames to kill AI that you include in your games, that I could see as being cheap.

We find that we've pretty much optimized play in a way that when we meet, we are often very close to matching army strenghts. When manouvering, you can move, then attack with the ritualists. Because of this, most of the time, you have to either place units so far away that they are practically out of the fight, or close enough to get hit. Especially with multiple ritualists, there's often a "put the cheap troops forward and and try to wear the Ring of Flames out before moving the hard troops in to attack"-dance going on, and this almost always ends up with all units being hit by at least one Ring of Flames. This typically means that you are at a sudden -20-30% on all troops when fighting against Ashen Veil, while catapults, fireballs etc. are much less powerful. The -20% means turning the otherwise equal battle into a slaughter. Going after the ritualists is pretty hard 'cause in a stack they can be protected against assassins and normal melee by loads of cheap and normal melee troops, since they are medium strength and cannot be targeted from the "top or the bottom of the stack"

I think that the conditions under which your ratings were generated (one specific group of players, one specific map type, no water tiles, one religion excluded, arbitrary assignment of point values, and failure to account for all the advantages of some of the religions) make them an unsuitable justification for a rebalance of the mod.

I do not disagree. Part of the idea was to bring out the factors that we had forgot/had not discovered. Please chip in with the advantages of the other religions. Concerning the arbitrary assignment of point values, it would be great to think up some sort of standardized way of calculating precisely, but we ended up falling short, since conflicting factors and strategies (like researching up to the 11K techs, researching Infernal Pact and going for Eidolon upgrading, while having to deal with Hell Terrain) were very hard to factor in. Instead, the "obvoius" or most used strategies were used, which admittedly reflect our groups play styles and strategic shortcomings, also

Just to address one point, perhaps Ritualists would seem less overpowered if one of your group was to play as Jonas Endain, convert to RoK, and then promote his Priests of Kilmorph with Combat I-III, Magic Resistance, and Resist Fire (which would give them 95% fire resistance). Anything will seem powerful if no one uses a counter-strategy.

It's not the lack of counter strategies (I really think we've tried most of them), but the lack of balanced counter strategies that we spotted. For instance, in your example, you could have all your experienced troops gaining fire resistance at the cost of 2x20% improvements instead, which would put the units in a tough situation on the battlefield.

The CoE unit listing didn't include the nightwatch, who can situationally be useful as hidden nationality units. Not a great military advantage over longbowment admittedly.

In our discussion about the nightwatch (which is probably only relevant in multiplayer), all of us would prefer longbowmen as defensive units, and the fact that you cannot choose which unit gets drafted means that the nigthwatch might even become a negative factor.

I think you're severely underestimating Empyrean and CoE.

Chalid is far better than you think. In fact, he might be the strongest religious hero in the game. He's available very early on and can cut a stack of units down to 25% HP in a single turn, his strength can be boosted with sun mana, and unlike Meshabber or The Mithril Golem, doesn't require an AC count to build and can prevent the AC from ever rising.

I completely agree with Chalid being the strongest religious unit in the game, perhaps with Rosier the Fallen as a runner-up, since his bery early appearance can change the course of the game.
The high-level units like The Mithril Golem are very rarely built in our multi-player games, despite always playing on Huge maps, since the game is usually decided before getting to it.

Gibbon is also a stronger hero, though not as good as Chalid. He is the earliest archmage in the game, which means you can get Domination or Snowfall, some of the strongest spells, very early. He's especially with the Balseraphs because their Puppets can duplicate his strength. That is somewhat situational though.

The puppet/Gibbon combi has been used (since Gibbon won't lose the Domination ability that way). But we usually end up having big clashes where Domination only gets casted 2-3 times before the stacks are dead/retreated. But aginst AI players, it is really powerful. It should be said that in our experience, heroes always make the save against Domination.

Nox Noctis is the strongest defensive wonder available. Combined with something like Slow or Blinding Light, you can completely prevent an opponent from attacking you. Also, you don't need to follow Esus to use it, only have the holycity(which is easy to do if you already founded Empyrean)

Yep - there's always a race to reach Deception. IMO it would be prudent to make the invisibility effect active only if following the Council of Esus religion. That would almost justify converting to the religion as a all-game option like the rest.

AV is still very powerful... just not as dominant as you place it. Far from the ultimate religion. Also keep in mind that to utilize some of it's effects, you have to have a high AC count... and for 18/21 civilizations, a high AC is very bad(not excellent for those 3, but it hurts their foes more than it hurts them

In my ears, you're describing the problem
Many of the biggest AV advantages (Rosier/Ring of Flames/diseased corpses) do not need any other prerequisites, like a high AC count.
And yes, you are absolutely right that for almost all civs, the high AC is bad, but this also means that while you hurt, your opponents do to (perhaps even more due to Sacrifice the Weak)

One easy way of improving Esus would be to move shadowriders earlier in the tech tree. Warhorses comes so late, and competes with better techs that cost about the same, that the units it provides are largely irrelevant in most games. Have them require horseback riding and deception and reduce base to 4, cost to 180 and remove national limit.

We didn't factor the Shadowriders in, since it had a value of 0 in our eyes (due to relevance, as you say, and compared to knights)
Hadn't thought of moving it forward in the tech tree - that would be an excellent and fun approach.

Phew - keep'em coming

 

[Ekolite]

It's not really appropriate to measure the CoE on this scale. As a religion, its designed that most of the time you don't adopt it. Thematically it's usually meant to hide away in the background, except in the rare exceptions such as the Svartalfar when Council of Esus members are pulling all the strings. The fact that you always rush to Deception for Nox Noctis shows that the CoE is a powerful tool. I would probably move Shadowriders to Stirrups, not horseback riding. Afterall, by the time you get deception Horseback Riding would have been a long time ago and you enemies will be using higher tiered units.

 

[Antiquado]

It's not really appropriate to measure the CoE on this scale. As a religion, its designed that most of the time you don't adopt it. Thematically it's usually meant to hide away in the background, except in the rare exceptions such as the Svartalfar when Council of Esus members are pulling all the strings.

A lot of the charm of Fall from Heaven is the basis in a RPG scenario/campaign. I like that a lot. As such, there's nothing wrong with a specific religion being balanced intentionally weaker, so as to be chosen rarely, "so they won't see it coming". I appreciate that it would be out of balancing considerations, then. Of course, it would only be used in RPG FFH games then, which is kind of a pity, I think, since both ways are possible (and I would really like the description and idea behind CoE, and therefore would like to use it)

The fact that you always rush to Deception for Nox Noctis shows that the CoE is a powerful tool. I would probably move Shadowriders to Stirrups, not horseback riding. Afterall, by the time you get deception Horseback Riding would have been a long time ago and you enemies will be using higher tiered units.

Doesn't it show that Deception tech is a powerful tool, since there is no need to use CoE to gain Nox Noctis.
I agree with moving it to stirrups - it would probably be too powerful otherwise.

 

[Ekolite]

Thematically, few civs are actually controlled by followers of the CoE (represented by having it as a state religion) but many civs benefit from their smuggling/espionage. This is shown in game by many of its effects being available without it being a state religion. The bonuses that are not available without adopting the religion are intentionally situational.

I regard CoE as one of the strongest religions, precisely for the reason that it can more or less be used in conjuction with a more main-stream religion. This represents the way that CoE is thematically not a mainstream faith that you average peasant would asociate with. It is the faith of a select few that pull the strings from behind the scenes.

Also, one massive bonus of CoE that you have ignored is how easy it is to spread. Costs just a small amount of gold, but does not consume the unit doing the spreading. Once you get Shadows you don't even need open borders to spread it amongst your opponents. This turns the Shrine into a money-making behemoth, especially once you build the Bazzar of Mammon there, and especially if you move your palace there and run GodKing. The gold you get from this is insane, and if you adopt the CoE you get to see what's going on in all the cities you spread the religion to. This is one of my favourite strategies.

 

[Antiquado]

Thematically, few civs are actually controlled by followers of the CoE (represented by having it as a state religion) but many civs benefit from their smuggling/espionage. This is shown in game by many of its effects being available without it being a state religion. The bonuses that are not available without adopting the religion are intentionally situational.

I regard CoE as one of the strongest religions, precisely for the reason that it can more or less be used in conjuction with a more main-stream religion. This represents the way that CoE is thematically not a mainstream faith that you average peasant would asociate with. It is the faith of a select few that pull the strings from behind the scenes.

Also, one massive bonus of CoE that you have ignored is how easy it is to spread. Costs just a small amount of gold, but does not consume the unit doing the spreading. Once you get Shadows you don't even need open borders to spread it amongst your opponents. This turns the Shrine into a money-making behemoth, especially once you build the Bazzar of Mammon there, and especially if you move your palace there and run GodKing. The gold you get from this is insane, and if you adopt the CoE you get to see what's going on in all the cities you spread the religion to. This is one of my favourite strategies.

I see your point - it could be considered a feature more than a competing religion. I think the balance in favor of Ashen Veil is probably more important.

Could you explain a few points, by the way:
* Typically, I leave God King in favor of City States at around 4-6 cities due to upkeep. Do you experience this also?
* Do you rebuild the palace in the CoE founding city?
* How do you spread CoE in enemy towns? Won't moving in to the city provoke an attack?

 

[Lone Wolf]

I regard CoE as one of the strongest religions, precisely for the reason that it can more or less be used in conjuction with a more main-stream religion.

What you're describing looks like a corporation/guild masquerading as a religion. CoE is a pretty strong guild and a weak religion.

I'd like CoE to be more beneficial as a state religion, too, that's why I made Shadows unique to Esus in my modmod, made the Eyes and Ears network unique to Esus, and gave markets and taverns +1 with Esus. Nox Noctis requries Esus, though it's a side effect of trying to make religion changes less beneficial.

Some bonus is also needed to the Svartalfar to motivate them to adopt Esus.

 

[Ekolite]

I see your point - it could be considered a feature more than a competing religion. I think the balance in favor of Ashen Veil is probably more important.

Could you explain a few points, by the way:
* Typically, I leave God King in favor of City States at around 4-6 cities due to upkeep. Do you experience this also?
* Do you rebuild the palace in the CoE founding city?
* How do you spread CoE in enemy towns? Won't moving in to the city provoke an attack?

1) Often before founding CoE I use the Runes of Kilmorph. This can help support your economy in the early game. I prefer Spiritual leaders as they allow me to switch into GK, then back out if it gets to expensive, and then back into it later if I decide to do so. Once you spread CoE around a bit and have the Bazzar set up it will more then cover the extra cost of maintenance.

2) Not always. If its a very poor city then I may choose not to do so, in this case I will probably use a civic other then God King. Aristocracy has a nice synergy because the Holy City of Esus produces enough gold to still be making a large profit at 100% tech rate, and Aristocracy increases the number of beakers you produce. Sometimes adding a GK capital to the city is overkill, you're usually rolling in cash anyway.

3) You can't spread the religion to a civ you're at war with. Nightwatch (with declared nationality) can spread the religion to people you have open borders with, declared nationality shadows can spread the religion to people you do not have open borders with.

The strength and niche of the CoE is that you don't need to have it as state religion to beneift from it.

 

[Antiquado]

What you're describing looks like a corporation/guild masquerading as a religion. CoE is a pretty strong guild and a weak religion.

I'd like CoE to be more beneficial as a state religion, too, that's why I made Shadows unique to Esus in my modmod, made the Eyes and Ears network unique to Esus, and gave markets and taverns +1 with Esus. Nox Noctis requries Esus, though it's a side effect of trying to make religion changes less beneficial.

Some bonus is also needed to the Svartalfar to motivate them to adopt Esus.

I'm sorry, Lone Wolf. I've seen a lot of posts from you, but I don't know which modmod you have made. Could you tell me the name or where to find it?

 

[Lone Wolf]

I'm sorry, Lone Wolf. I've seen a lot of posts from you, but I don't know which modmod you have made. Could you tell me the name or where to find it?

My personal, not released. It mostly consists of some simplified conceptions from various other modmods, from which I steal regularly.

 

[Tlalynet]

If thats the case with the ring of flames then I can see your problem, and I agree that corpses are worth more 'points' than Crusaders because of their availability and utility. I was just trying to point out that Order is built to counter AV all other things being equal. Incidentally if you did this you would want hell terrain to spread so you would get a production advantage over the AV civ.

My opinion on Ring of Flames is the same as my opinion on any stack damage spells. Considering there is no limit to the number of units they can damage and they don't consider the STR at all and they hit several tiles something like RoF shouldn't do more than 5+1% per combat level Capped at 70%. Even at that 3-6 ritualists would mean you have a 90% or higher chance of destroying any given unit in a stack, you would still need a main army. Even Crown Of Brilliance really shouldn't be able to knock units down to 25% of their health, even if it took them down to 50% it would be incredibly powerful.

Direct damage spells would be better balanced if they did considerably less damage than collateral damage units since they can hit so many more units and can always hurt the top unit of the stack. Fireball is what? 20%ish, so 10% is lots for Direct damage.

Corpses are great, but I agree they give AV an edge. I don't think they are way out of balance though, it sounds like its the direct damage mechanic that makes AV so powerful, and if thats the problem I agree. I think most people would have a problem with magic taking another nerf though.

 

[Antiquado]

If thats the case with the ring of flames then I can see your problem, and I agree that corpses are worth more 'points' than Crusaders because of their availability and utility. I was just trying to point out that Order is built to counter AV all other things being equal. Incidentally if you did this you would want hell terrain to spread so you would get a production advantage over the AV civ.

My opinion on Ring of Flames is the same as my opinion on any stack damage spells. Considering there is no limit to the number of units they can damage and they don't consider the STR at all and they hit several tiles something like RoF shouldn't do more than 5+1% per combat level Capped at 70%. Even at that 3-6 ritualists would mean you have a 90% or higher chance of destroying any given unit in a stack, you would still need a main army. Even Crown Of Brilliance really shouldn't be able to knock units down to 25% of their health, even if it took them down to 50% it would be incredibly powerful.

Direct damage spells would be better balanced if they did considerably less damage than collateral damage units since they can hit so many more units and can always hurt the top unit of the stack. Fireball is what? 20%ish, so 10% is lots for Direct damage.

Corpses are great, but I agree they give AV an edge. I don't think they are way out of balance though, it sounds like its the direct damage mechanic that makes AV so powerful, and if thats the problem I agree. I think most people would have a problem with magic taking another nerf though.

I agree completely with your thoughts on spell damage - at least as long as Ring og Flames go. But consider spell damage from "real" spellcasters: You spent a lot of beakers to even get to mage (level 2), where spells are very limited in power, and only maelstrom deals out direct damage. The spellcasters are very hard to protect because of assassination and the fact that their promotions are often best spent on spell levels. When I think about it, the regular magic system seems very well balanced to me.

But when a relatively early unit like the ritualist has a spell power that can easily compete with high mage 3rd level spells, it summons the same feelings in me as when someone cheated in line