Religion redesign

[Ahriman]

As in the design, I'm happy for Landsraad to be called Galactic Empire or The Great Compact instead, but I personally really like the idea of representing loyalty to one of the two "status quo" power groups.

If others had alternatives we could consider them... but I didn't really see any

Icons look good.

 

[Gelvan]

how about this one for Messianism:
http://wowdata.buffed.de/img/icons/wow/16/inv_sword_28.png
it's 16x16

 

[Deliverator]

I'm reading Children of Dune at the moment. There is a big contrast between the Mahdi-awaiting followers of Muad'dib in Dune, and what the Religion of Muad'dib becomes under Alia with the power of Qizarate in Children of Dune. It would be nice to reflect this in the mod.

A possibility could be having the Cult of St Alia as a religion. That way we can have conflict between those true to Muad'dib, and those loyal to Alia and the Qizarate. We can scrap Alia as a BG leader seeing as that is wrong thematically in any case. Then perhaps in the future Alia could be a Hero or General unit of some kind for this new religion.

You could perhaps make room for this by making CHOAM a special more powerful form of corporation which might be a better fit anyway.

Also, I think Messianism isn't Dunish enough - I'd prefer something with Muad'dib or Mahdi in it.

 

[Ahriman]

Well, first off, I see children of dune as being somewhat after the timeline of the mod. But having said that:

It would be nice to reflect this in the mod.

I see this difference as being inherent in Messianism (those like Alia, who want to continue the power through force) vs the Golden Path (more Paulish).

We could bring the Golden path religion earlier, rename it and tweak it as appropriate; I'm not particularly set on the design of the Golden path.

I'm happy to change the names around, as long as the general themes of violent-jihadist religion vs peaceful-longterm-survival religion are still there.

I like leaving CHOAM as a religion though. The point of CHOAM vs Landsraad/Empire is to demonstrate that even in the status quo, houses might be leaning towards either of these two power groups and getting political or economic power as appropriate, and those factions are less likely to trust each other (religious diplomacy effects).

 

[davidlallen]

I agree Alia is a little confusing as BG. If we remove her, we would want to add a second BG leader. I think Jessica would be equally confusing as BG. I can't think of any other famous BG. Are there any other BG in the movies/miniseries to use a screenshot?

I reviewed about Qizarate last night. I think that would be a good addition.

My objection to CHOAM and Landsraad is that these power groups are not really "mutually exclusive" with the other religions. If we can think of others, I will probably include them instead of CHOAM/Landsraad.

Is there anything "canon" written about Tleilaxu religion? "Supremacy" is rather generic.

 

[Ahriman]

If you want to rename Messianism to something involving the Quizarate, I can live with that. But it needs to be very clear that it is jihadistic victory by the sword.

My objection to CHOAM and Landsraad is that these power groups are not really "mutually exclusive" with the other religions. If we can think of others, I will probably include them instead of CHOAM/Landsraad.

As a general value system, I think they *are* exclusive to the other religions.
The messianic worship of Muad'Dib is a direct challenge to the established order of the Corrino Padisah Emperor and the Great Houses; they want Muad'Dib in charge instead; the first things that happen when Paul takes over is that the Emperor gets exiled and Paul takes all his CHOAM holdings, and then starts conquering the other Houses.

The Tleilaxu are outsiders, definitely not loyal to CHOAM, the Landsraad or the Emperor; they are quintessential Other.

The Shai-Hulad religion is practiced by the Fremen and the native population, who can be bullied and controlled and handed around as a Fief, but do not support them.

The Golden Path also cannot exist with the old order; the entire point of the Golden path is as an alternative to the decay that Paul sees the status quo leading to.

And the return of a technocratic butlerian-precept-violating system is also a clear threat to the established feudal order, in much the same way that the industrial revolution on earth overturned the old feudal power systems.

So I feel that the religions are pretty exclusive already.

Is there anything "canon" written about Tleilaxu religion? "Supremacy" is rather generic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Tleilax

The Tleilaxu are isolationist and xenophobic in the extreme; they basically think of the rest of humanity as unclean. They're barely even human anymore.
Their religion is very important, but they utterly refused to share it with outsiders. It is a Zensufi offshoot.
But the Tleilaxu Supremacy religion here is not supposed to represent just their religious beliefs, but their whole cultural ethos of separation.

I'm happy to have the Supremacy part of the name changed, I have no attachment to it, but I think the general concept is sound.

 

[davidlallen]

Maybe what you are aiming at is not religion at all, but something like "rulership". You commented about challenges to the established order. In post-apocalyptic Fury Road, I used the religion slot to keep information about which city should become the capitol of the nation once it is rebuilt. So one civilization could support another civilization's bid to become the capitol, just like one civ can adopt another civ's religion. But only one of the civs will become the capitol.

Viewed this way, Emperor is one possible ruler, Messiah is another; Golden Path, Tleilaxu and technocracy fit. These are mutually exclusive. But then CHOAM, which is not a rulership, does not fit; you can make money regardless of what style of ruler is in power. Also Shai-Hulud does not really fit, but your original comments suggest this is kind of a "default" low level religion, not a serious contender for rulership.

If we add Qizarate as an example of a bureaucratic theocracy rather than a charismatic/jihadic one, and remove CHOAM, then perhaps we have a set which fits together.

EDIT: But ... then we have to examine overlaps in civics. We have Imperium and Theocracy as government civics, and Great Convention and Imperial Fealty as law civics. Maybe those just need new names.

 

[Ahriman]

Maybe what you are aiming at is not religion at all, but something like "rulership".

As I stated in the original design:

I propose a major redesign which uses the religion mechanic as more of an Ethos or Value system, rather than just actual religious faith.

Just because the mechanic is called Religion and because in vanilla civ its used for religions doesn't mean that we have to use it for religions.

But then CHOAM, which is not a rulership, does not fit; you can make money regardless of what style of ruler is in power

CHOAM most definitely is an allegiance; it is an allegiance toward the great house trade system trying to make money for themselves, rather than to the Emperor.
I think the choice of aiming for political power and influence vs money is an interesting one, and worth modeling with two separate priority/value/"religion" systems.

The Shai-hulad religion is basically attempting to model the pre-Messianic Fremen (and natives) religion, and represents these guys as a separate power base. Its the religion you have if you're trying to cooperate with the natives, rather than exploiting them in the standard fashion.
Its generally less effective than cooperating with the main feudal institutions, but it can still be valuable.

The Golden path is the religion I would be happiest to lose or change. I really like a trade-religion.
If you really object that strongly, then make it the Guild, which is the other leg of the status-quo power base.

I *guess* you could split the Messianic faith by militaristic vs bureaucratic, but I think the Paul (idealistic trying to save humanity) vs the Alia (power-hungry wanting control) makes much more sense.
The Quizarate is just the bureaucracy that supports the militarists, rather than being in conflict with them.

EDIT: But ... then we have to examine overlaps in civics. We have Imperium and Theocracy as government civics, and Great Convention and Imperial Fealty as law civics. Maybe those just need new names.

Yes, there is some overlap with the civics, but not enough to make them unviable.
I'm happy for name changes if you have suggestions.

 

[Gelvan]

Quote:
EDIT: But ... then we have to examine overlaps in civics. We have Imperium and Theocracy as government civics, and Great Convention and Imperial Fealty as law civics. Maybe those just need new names.

Yes, there is some overlap with the civics, but not enough to make them unviable.
I'm happy for name changes if you have suggestions.

Theocracy could be called Devotion, a state where everyone is bound to the value (as described in this thread) of it's civ.

The Legal category is a bit unclear to me, maybe this needs to be renamed as well?
Imperial Fealty is about drafting and happiness, so it could be called Mobilization.
Great Convention is about Culture, so it needs to be clarified what culture IS in dune wars, and why the civic gives +100% - culture gives influence, and is therefore maybe a way to attract people.

I'd rename Legal to public system or public affairs or public view something like that.
then we have
- tribal organziation
- Kanly
- War of Assasins (police state maybe?)
- Mobilization (instead of fealty)
- water sharing (instead of great convention)

 

[Deliverator]

My objection to CHOAM and Landsraad is that these power groups are not really "mutually exclusive" with the other religions.

I agree with this point.

In Children of Dune, the Atreides have 51% of CHOAM shares and the Priesthood of Muad'Dib hold 5%, a recognition that they control the spice. Still, CHOAM is not really their ideology. CHOAM is a company which most members of the Landsraad have a stake in. It is a mechanism for sharing the profits of spice mining and trade. I'm not sure it really fits as an ideology or ethos. This is a quote from CoD:

"What you of the CHOAM directorate seem unable to understand is that you seldom find real loyalties in commerce. When did you last hear of a clerk giving his life for the company?"

(There is a great summary of what CHOAM is on pg147 of Children of Dune - if people have it.)

Parties who have a range of different agendas, religious or other-wise, still desire shares in CHOAM. For example, when Scytale threatens Paul's children in Dune Messiah, his demand is for all of his CHOAM holdings. Even the Tleilaxu with their religious fundamentalism still want a controlling stake in CHOAM.

Off-topic slightly but I think it would be simple enough to have a custom mechanic to model CHOAM the way it is described in the books. When the CHOAM tech is discovered, shares or directorships are split amoung the civilizations, either (i) based on the amount of tiles controlled or (ii) based on the number of spice tiles controlled. Civs then get an income each turn based on the total number of spice tiles worked on the whole planet. Every 10 turns perhaps, the CHOAM holdings are recalculated. CHOAM holdings can be viewed in a new tab in one of the advisor screens. The majority holder of CHOAM shares could get some special benefit. House Corrino could get some advantage in terms of manipulating CHOAM holdings.

By the way, there is no rule that says we have to have 7 religions. We could stick to 5 or 6 which might make the religious distinctions even starker.

I can't think of any other famous BG.

You could use Lady Fenring. She is a highly capable BG in Dune. Ix and Tleilax only have one leader so it wouldn't be that terrible to go to one.

 

[Ahriman]

Theocracy could be called Devotion, a state where everyone is bound to the value (as described in this thread) of it's civ.

Well, theocracy was intended to really be an actual theocracy, and so be favored by the more religious leaders/factions (like the Tleilaxu).
But Devotion sounds just as good, with your interpretation. I would be happy with this change.

Imperial Fealty is about drafting and happiness, so it could be called Mobilization.

The idea of the connection here was related to getting access to the Imperial levies.
In the books, they keeping talking about "where do the Sardaukar come from", and the official line is that they are chosen from the normal feudal levies that the houses give to the Emperor. So the idea was that Imperial Fealty let you levy troops using the draft mechanic.

Great Convention is about Culture, so it needs to be clarified what culture IS in dune wars, and why the civic gives +100% - culture gives influence, and is therefore maybe a way to attract people.

The idea was that culture in Dune is really political influence. It comes from Nobles. Great Convention civic represents the increase in power and influence you get from following the strictures and rules of the great convention in detail.

War of Assasins (police state maybe?)

Well, in some ways the War of Assassins is the *opposite* of the normal civ police state; war of assassins is about using espionage assassins rather than open warfare, its designed to avoid open warfare, hence the war weariness penalty.
I'd object to changing the name; it has great Dune flavor.

water sharing (instead of great convention)

This makes no sense to me.

In Children of Dune, the Atreides have 51% of CHOAM shares and the Priesthood of Muad'Dib hold 5%, a recognition that they control the spice.

The idea I had of this, is when Paul takes over the CHOAM shares, that is really the end of CHOAM as an influence group group. CHOAM controlled by Atreides isn't really a focus on making money/spice wealth anymore; instead its control has been seized and taken over by the objective of jihad.
So yes, they're exclusive.
Vague historical analogy: after the reformation, the English crown (controlling the Church of England) appropriated all of the assets of the Catholic church in England, claiming them for their own. This does not mean that because the assets still existed, that the Church of England was not mutually exclusive with Catholicism.

CHOAM is a company which most members of the Landsraad have a stake in. It is a mechanism for sharing the profits of spice mining and trade. I'm not sure it really fits as an ideology or ethos.

Then change the "Landsraad" religion to be called "Galactic Imperium".
This way, the GalImp religion represents the Emperor and his political power, while CHOAM represents the Great Houses and their interests in generating wealth.

And, fundamentally, do people think that a strategic choice between political power (happiness and culture) vs economic power (gold, directly), is not an interesting strategic option? I think the religions would feel pretty different - which is a Good Thing.

By the way, there is no rule that says we have to have 7 religions

I feel very strongly that we need two "status quo" religions, like Galactic Imperium and CHOAM, to represent two competing interest groups from the "old empire".

And in the current design at least, of the 7:
a) One is exclusive to a single faction (Bene Tl)
b) Two come late-game only (Technocracy and Golden Path, though Golden Path could easily come earlier).

You could use Lady Fenring.

Sounds fine to me.

so it wouldn't be that terrible to go to one.

This would also be fine.

 

[davidlallen]

If we think of the religion category as "rulership", then we can try the following:

Imperium: believes the Emperor should have all the political power

Landsraad: believes the Great Council of Houses should have all the political power

Mahdi: believes the Mahdi (messiah, ie, Paul) should personally have all the political power

Qizarate: believes that the Mahdi's church bureaucracy should have all the political power

Tleilaxu Supremacy: believes that the Tleilaxu should have all the political power

Shai-Hulud: Fremen belong in the desert, who cares what the rest of the universe does.

We can rename a couple of the civics to get rid of the reference to imperium.

The main goal, as Ahriman pointed out in his original post, is to get groups with positive reaction to civs in the same group and negative reaction to civs in the other groups.

 

[Ahriman]

The main goal, as Ahriman pointed out in his original post, is to get groups with positive reaction to civs in the same group and negative reaction to civs in the other groups.

No, the main goal is to have religions that have different effects and play differently, while maintaining a Dune flavor.

If there is no strategic difference in how Landsraad fealty vs Imperial fealty works, then the design is bad.
If there is no strategic difference in how Mahdi fealty vs Quizarate fealty works, then the design is bad.

Thats part of my design intent:
Landsraad or Empire is about political(culture) and happiness bonuses.
CHOAM is about gold bonuses.
These two are powerful and widely spread early game, but fail over time as the new ideas come in.

Tleilaxu is about priest bonuses, and is not an evangelical faith, it does not accept powindah outsiders.

Technocracy is about hammer bonuses.
Messianism is about military bonuses.
Golden path is about stability through control and forced stagnation.

Thus, the religions have strategic impacts.

 

[davidlallen]

If there is no strategic difference in how Landsraad fealty vs Imperial fealty works, then the design is bad.

I agree having strong strategic differences between the religions may be an interesting idea. There are already large differences between the N civs due to unique abilities. If there are also large strategic differences between M religions, then there are a huge number N * M of different combinations which must be balanced against each other. So I believe this is something we should explore gingerly, rather than rejecting any design which does not have it.

Landsraad or Empire is about political(culture) and happiness bonuses.
CHOAM is about gold bonuses.
Tleilaxu is about priest bonuses.
Technocracy is about hammer bonuses.
Messianism is about military bonuses.
Golden path is about stability through control and forced stagnation.

I left off technocracy by mistake. Is this a hammer bonus or beaker bonus?

The main difference between your list and mine is you have CHOAM; while I have Qizarate as a bureaucracy and I split Landsraad from Imperium. I agree I cannot find much gameplay difference between Landsraad and Imperium, though we could make up one. Either Qizarate or Landsraad could be given a hammer bonus or a gold bonus.

I just have a hard time imagining a CHOAM representative saying, "Sorry, I cannot establish an outpost in your city because I disagree with your choice of government". Merchants go everywhere, regardless of what government may be in power at the time.

 

[Ahriman]

If there are also large strategic differences between M religions, then there are a huge number N * M of different combinations which must be balanced against each other.

I really haven't seen any particular synergy problems. I think the only things that need to be considered are Ix and technocracy. There should be a synergy here. And ideally there should be a synergy between Corrino and Imperium, and between Ecaz and CHOAM (since they're our traders), and between Fremen and Messianism.

Is this a hammer bonus or beaker bonus?

Mostly hammer, but a mix of both.

I will gladly rename CHOAM to Landsraad if you prefer that, and have the current "Landsraad" be Imperium. My basic idea here was that CHOAM is the form of wealth controlled by the Great houses anyway.

And I'd be willing to see Quizarate merged into the Golden Path somehow. Golden Path is the least developed of my concepts anyway.

I just have a hard time imagining a CHOAM representative saying, "Sorry, I cannot establish an outpost in your city because I disagree with your choice of government". Merchants go everywhere, regardless of what government may be in power at the time.

Also note that unless you're in the theocracy civic, religions can be spread to your cities and their temples built without you having them as your state religion. So I don't see how this is relevant.

 

[Gelvan]

The idea was that culture in Dune is really political influence. It comes from Nobles. Great Convention civic represents the increase in power and influence you get from following the strictures and rules of the great convention in detail.

it's good to know, what culture represents in dune wars, thanks for the insight - therefore "water sharing" truely makes no sense - "imperial fealty" could be just "fealty" because I suppose you won't draft only Sardaukars? - war of assasin is great as such.

regarding the religions, I agree that there should be a commercial belief, I think it would be a good idea to use the list of Davidlallen, and declare "religions" in dune wars as a belief in who should be in charge (ot: could be connected to a diplomatic victory, a diplomatic religous victory maybe?).
To distingueish Imperium and Landsraad, give the Imperium belief the ability to use a landing stage to get a sardaukar contract and let the "temples" increase espionage. Landsraad would be CHOAM because that's the whole idea (somehow) behind it. if you don't belief that Landsraad should rule the universe, why would you support CHOAM? of course it would still be possible to spread the belief, unless of course people are devoted to their "messiah" and therefore a bit difficult.

 

[Ahriman]

"imperial fealty" could be just "fealty" because I suppose you won't draft only Sardaukars?

I should clarify; the official party line was that Sardaukar were recruited from levies. This is what most people believed. The reason why I mentioned this is because it demonstrates that the Great Houses did in fact have to give feudal levies to the Emperor.
However, in reality, Sardaukar did NOT come from these levies, they were recruited solely from Salusa Secundus, the emperer's hell-hole prison planet.

give the Imperium belief the ability to use a landing stage to get a sardaukar contract and let the "temples" increase espionage

I don't really like these. Imperium "temples" should give happiness and culture, and slots for nobles (which are boosted by the Imperium shrine).
Sardakar cooperation should remain a Corrino-only thing. But the Corrinos should have a high rating for the tech that founds Imperium and prefer to follow that religion, so they will naturally be more likely to trade their Sardaukar resource to other co-religionists.

* * *
So, a variation on the original design:

1. Galactic Empire
Idea: The ethos of preserving the feudal galactic status quo, and supporting the Emperor as head. This is an early game religion that is founded by an early tech and is easy to spread, but can be easily overtaken later by any of the other ideas for change.
Gives culture and happiness; people like the status quo.
Can be founded by or adopted by: anyone but Fremen or Tleilaxu
Founded by tech: feudalism
Great shrine: Imperial palace. Adds +2 free noble specialist, +1culture per city with this religion, +1 gold to all noble specialists. Spreads religion. Can be built by great priest, great noble.
Unique buildings: Feudal estate. Gives +1 happy, +2 culture, +20% culture. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to noble. Requires tech: feudalism.
Fiefdom. Gives +50% culture, +1 happy, +1 happy if Landsraad is state religion, +1 happy with Sardaukar cooperation resource, requires 3 feudal estates. Allows 2 citizens to be converted to noble. Requires tech: imperium.
Unique units: Diplomat. Standard missionary unit. Requires feudal estate.
Special properties: High spread rate, high spread rate from shrine. This religion is automatically removed from a city whenever any new religion is planted in that city.

2. Landsraad
Idea: ethos of trade, particularly spice, controlled by the Great Houses of the Landsraad. Spice makes CHOAM go around.
Can be founded by or adopted by: anyone but Fremen or Tleilaxu or Bene Gesserit
Founded by tech: great houses
Great shrine: CHOAM Headquarters. not actually a shrine, but instead another spice corporation hq (and no executives to spread it), that competes with all the other spice corporations (so you can't have both in the same city). Spreads CHOAM religion (not the same as the corporation). Founded by a great trader or a great priest. Gives +2 trader GPPs.
So this allows you to get a second city that gives +3 commerce per spice resource you control.
Unique units: Emissary. Standard missionary unit (spreads the religion, not the corporation). Requires CHOAM outpost.
Unique buildings: CHOAM outpost. Gives +1 trade route, +25% trade route yield. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to trader. Requires tech: spice economy.
CHOAM Directorate (cathedral replacement). Requires 3 CHOAM outposts. Gives +1 trade route, +50% trade route yield, gives +1 happy from each of the various luxury rade goods (semuta, opafire, etc.) Requires tech: CHOAM.
Allows 2 citizens to be converted to trader.
Special properties: This religion requires creating both a religion (the main component) and a new corporation (which shows up ONLY as the replacement for a holy shrine). Low natural spread rate, low spread rate by shrine, normal price missionaries.

3. Messianism. (Alternatives: Way of the Mahdi, Way of Muad'Dib)
Idea: Jihadist. Convert the galaxy by the sword.
Founded by: Holy Jihad tech.
Can be founded by or adopted by: anyone but Corrino or Tleilaxu
Great shrine: Dune Messiah (or: Prophecies of the Mahdi). Gives -100% war weariness in this city. Gives -25% war weariness empirewide. Gives +10% military production per city with this religion. So the shrine becomes a unit factory powerhouse. Gives +1 priest GPPs.
Unique units: Fish speaker. Requires theocracy. Strength 6 melee unit, very cheap on hammers, death does not cause war weariness. Designed to be cannon fodder; lower strength than contemporary units, but able to be fielded in overwhelming numbers.
Unique buildings: Temple of Muad'Dib. +1 happy, +1 culture, +15% military production, +1 unhappy per non-state religion. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest. +10% military production with Fremen water debt.
Special properties: no missionary unit. Low natural spread rate. High spread rate from shrine. Whenever a civ that has this as its state religion conquers a city, this religion is automatically added to that city.

4. Tleilaxu Supremacy
Idea: Tleilaxu should be apart and separate, with their own theistic faith that they will never share with outsiders. Essentially, this is a religion that can only ever be adopted by 1 civ. Its main purpose is to encourage the 'Otherness' of the Tleilaxu, and the fact that everyone hates and fears them (diplomacy penalty for different religion with every other player).
Can be founded or adopted by: Tleilaxu only. This is the only religion the BTl can adopt.
Founded by tech: mysticism (so you get it in your capital).
Great shrine: Prophecies of Bandalong. +4 culture, +2 free priest, +1 hammer output to priests and great priests in all cities. Allows 2 citizens to be converted to priests.
Unique units:
Unique buildings: Zensufi temple. Adds +1 happy, allows 2 citizens to be converted to priest. Requires Faith.
Biology lab. Adds +15% beakers, +1 happy, allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest. Requires Academies tech.
Axolotl tanks. Requires genetic manipulation. Allows 1 citizens to be converted to priest.
Special properties: no missionaries. No automatic spread or spread from shrine The religion is automatically spread to any new city founded by the BTl faction. (Several religions in Warhammer mod work like this, so I know its codeable).


5. Qizarate
Idea: Bureaucratic religion leading towards the golden path.
Can be adopted by/founded by: anyone except BTl.
Founded by tech: some mid-late-game tech. Academies? Or a newly created Qizarate tech?
Great shrine: ??
Unique units:
Unique buildings: Quizarate temple. +1 happy, -30% city maintenance. Allows 2 citizens to be coverted to priests.
The Golden Path. Gives +5 happy, +5 health, -25% beakers, -50% trade route yield. Requires golden path tech.
Special properties: When spread to a city, it instantly eliminates all other religions in that city. Does not have a natural spread rate, is not spread by shrine; missionary only.

6. Way of Shai-Hulad.
Idea: the kind of general animist worm-worship held by the Fremen before Paul, and many of the regular inhabitants of Dune. Basically a weak backup religion for anyone who doesn't have another one, or for players who would rather get a standard gold-shrine religion.
Can be founded/adopted by: anyone except BTl.
Founded by: Faith
Holy shrine: Shrine of the worm. +2 culture. +1 gold per city with this religion present. +2 priest GPPs.
Unique units: Prophet (missionary replacement).
Unique buildings: Arrakian Temple, +1 culture, +1 water, +1happy with Fremen water debt. Natives of Arrakis with traditional lifestyle use less water and so have some excess. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to priest. Requires tech: faith.
Special properties: missionaries more expensive 50% more?, low religion spread rate. This is an inferior religion. Shai-Hulad doesn't answer prayers.

7. Technocracy
Idea: a techno-industrial complex leading back towards thinking machines. Technology bonuses and production bonuses, but happiness penalties (the people don't trust the machines)
Can be founded/adopted by: Anyone except Bene Gesserit, Bene Tleilaxu.
Founded by: Industrialism
Holy shrine: The Great Processor. +2 culture, no GPPs (its not encouraging human development), +25% beakers, +1 beaker per city with this religion. Can be founded by great prophet, great scientist.
Unique units: Technocrat (expensive missionary).
Unique buildings: Automated factory. +25% hammer production, +1 unhappy. Allows 1 citizens to be converted to engineer. +25% hammers with power. Requires industrialism tech.
Computerized research center. +25% beaker production, +1 unhappy. +25% beakers with power. requires cybernetics tech.
Robotic power plant. Provides power with Thinking machines resource. requires thinking machines tech.
Special properties: Low spread rate, no spread rate from shrine. Expensive missionaries.

* * *
So, some synergies can be obtained by giving bonuses with the unique trade resources.
We could also take the Technocracy buildings and rather than having Ix get UBs from them without the unhappy, just give +1 happy with thinking machines resource.

Also thought of a cool Bene Gesserit idea:
Unique building (Bene Gesserit): Missionaria Protectiva. +1 culture. Gives +2 culture +1 happy per religion present in the city.

 

[davidlallen]

I have tried to arrange the current proposal into a spreadsheet. This highlights that some items are missing. One of the challenges of entering the information into the xml is that when you go to enter a field, and you hadn't thought of it before, suddenly you have to have an inspiration in order to continue. And somebody might not like your sudden inspiration. If we can agree on all these fields, then creating the xml will be straightforward.

 

[Gelvan]

I've added some ideas:

Monasteries
Galactic Empire: Embassy, gives +10% research You may build diplomats
Landsraad: Business Academy gives +10% gold, you may build emissaries
Way of Mahdi: Arena, gives the ability to let two of your troops fight against each other (to get exp), you may build Fish Speaker
Way of Shai-Hulud: Sanctuary, you may build prophets, +15% city defense
Tleilaxu:

Cathedral
Way of Mahdi:
Golden Path:
Way of Shai-Hulud: Stillsuit Engineer, Gives +1 free Great Engineer. (Master truth sayer?)
Technocracy: Network Node, acts as palace (reduces corruption in nearby cities), -10% espionage in this city


Shrine
Landsraad: Business pact, gives a permanent alliance with the space guild civ. (or let's them come into play as an ally, like Baisum in FFH)
Golden Path:


The Mentats could be utilised somehow?

 

[Ahriman]

@David
I see no reason why we need to have monastaries. Just put the missionary requirement onto the temples.
Nor does every religion need to have the same number of buildings, though I'd be ok with having 2 buildings per religion. But the Messianism religion temple for eg is much more powerful than the Arrakian temple or Manor.

I really like the extra spice corp as the Landsraad/CHOAM shrine. Its relatively easy to implement too: The building is just another copy of the House Spice Corp (and competes with the others) and it founds the CHOAM corp.
And I really like the +military production shrine for Messianism, if you can figure out a way to code it. It feels so flavorful.

For Tleilaxu, how about:
Biology Lab. Allows 1 citizen to be turned into priest. +1 happy, +15% beakers.
Axolotl tank. As current, but also allows 2 citizens to be turned into priests.
[Biological modification kindof *is* their religion.]

Landsraad: Business pact, gives a permanent alliance with the space guild civ. (or let's them come into play as an ally, like Baisum in FFH)

I dislike this: the Basium effect never really worked well in FFH, Basium never did anything useful, its not flavorful for the Guild to enter the game like this, and it *definitely* doesn't make sense that they would enter based on CHOAM. The Guild and CHOAM are competing power groups.

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Added some more tech requirements to post 37.