Religion redesign

[Ahriman]

These two buildings also require thinking machines, so it seems to make a 100% overlap with the thinking machine resource. Are there some other powerful specialty buildings we could add, instead of mixing these two concepts?

The two concepts are *deliberately* mixed.

My intention was:
Technocracy religion is required to build automated factory and research center.
These buildings do *not* require thinking machines, but gain a synergy bonus with thinking machines resource and possibly an additional synergy bonus with Ixian race.

The "gains extra X with power", and the only power plant gives power only with thinking machines resource does the first.
UB replacements without an unhappiness bonus would do the second.

So for example we could have:
Automated factory. Requires cybernetics tech. Requires technocracy religion. +2 unhappy. +25% hammers. +25% hammers with power.

Ixian factory (replaces automated factory). Identical to automated factory except no happiness penalty.

Power plant. Requires thinking machines tech. Provides power with thinking machines resource. +1 unhappy.

Ixian power plant. Same as power plant except no unhappy.

I thought about these, and tried to pick names with a theme. "Tleilaxu temple" seemed too plain, and "Prophecies" seemed like an odd name for a building. Since the religion has "Supreme" in the name, I thought carrying that as a theme would be helpful. Any other suggestions for a thematic set of names?

There was a suggestion (which I would be fine with) to change the name of the religion to Tleilaxu Zensufism. And then you could have Zensufi temple.
The shrine isn't really a building; it is an institution or organization or whatever; just whatever it is that causes pilgrims to want to come see it.
Just because it is a building in civ engine terms doesn't mean that it has to represent a physical structure.
For example, think of the "Darwin's Voyage" type wonders. Its not a physical building, its an innovation.

That is a very late stage tech, and there would be nothing you could really do with the religion in between founding it, at Academies, and building temples, six tech tiers later.

There are two buildings: the Golden Path, and the Temple. The temple could be buildable immediately, as could the shrine, but the Golden Path building should come at its own tech. Also, the golden path tech has very few pre-requisities, so can be beelined from *much* earlier if desired.
You also get the missionary, who is hugely powerful because it wipes all other religions. The Quizarate starts spreading their influence and knocking out competitors long before the Golden Path is really reached (or even begun).

why is imperial lost when other religions spread? what's the reasoning behind that ?

The idea is that the Imperial religion represents the Status Quo present at the start of Dune; the rule by Padishah emperors (if someone other than Corrino founds the religion, then assume that the corrino emperor is a puppet).
The religion spreads very fast, and so many civs will convert to it initially, but then over time the old order status quo is replaced by the new ideas; either by belief in the Mahdi, by the bureacratic Quizarate, or by a technocratic return to thinking machines.

It is supposed to be a powerful and influential early game religion, who is gradually wiped out by later religions.

This is supposed to be both thematic (the destruction of the old order is one of the major themes of Dune) and good gameplay; in civ normally only the early founded religions get anywhere; you normally see Hinduism and Judiasm spread over the world, with very little christianity or islam. And we have religions founded much later than either of those. So we need the earlier religions to be wiped away so that some civs will adopt the new ones.

 

[Deliverator]

Some thoughts on naming things...

I think Qizarate Prophet should be renamed Quizara Tafwid - this is the term for priests of the Qizarate. It seems it can be used both as a plural or singular. "A Qizara Tafwid stood nearby when I came dripping from that water. He had not entered the sea." Farok in Dune Messiah.

I still prefer the Temple of Alia to Grand Palace of Arrakeen. I can live with the fact that Alia is a leader as well. The Temple really represents what the Qizarate is all about.

On a side note - I thought it would be quite interesting to have an Amazon Guard military unit associated with the Qizarate. Role playing a Qizarate Alia with Amazon Guards would be fun.

Shai-Hulud Prophet... I guess the most appropriate religious leader for the pre-Muad'Dib religion would be Sayyadina. Prophecy should be more associated the Mahdi religion.

Perhaps Mahdi Zealot instead of Mahdi Fighter. Or perhaps Chouhada is even better.

Not sure about Temple of Muad'Dib for the Mahdi building. Shrine of the Prophecy or something like that perhaps. Since the name Muad'Dib can equally well be used for Mahdi and Qizarate buildings I think it would be better to remove the name from both.

I agree that the Supreme Shrine and Supreme Temple should be renamed. Zensufi Shrine and Zensufi Temple are OK, although something with Tleilax/Tleilaxu in it would be fine too as it is a separatist religion.

Arrakian Temple and Arrakian Cathedral...

I have pointed out before that Arrakeen is the correct adjective relating to Arrakis. Gurney's song in Dune refers to Arrakeen girls and Children of Dune refers to "Arrakeen cities" when referring to multiple cities on Arrakis. Frank Herbert doesn't use the adjective Arrakian anywhere.

Regardless, I think there must be more flavourful names for the worm worshipping religion. Sanctuary of the Maker, Chamber of the Gods Below, etc.

 

[koma13]

I think Qizarate Prophet should be renamed Quizara Tafwid

I think we should always try keeping some 'common' words in it (prohpet not tafwid), this way it is easier to handle for people having no Dune kowlegde. This in general is very important to maintain a balance between Dune geeks and players new to Dune.
The new era names are a good example, they are completly useless to me.

 

[davidlallen]

The new era names are a good example, they are completly useless to me.

I agree. I was actually thinking of making the name text much longer, using the definitions deliverator originally gave:

1) Ayat - The signs of life
2) Wali - The untried youth
3) Mihna - The season for testing
4) Hajra - The journey of seeking
5) Tahaddi - The challenge of combat
6) Ijaz - The undeniable prophecy
7) Alam Al-Mithal - The mystical world

I suspect the menus would be too long, or something else would look messed up, so I did not try it. What do you think?

 

[Deliverator]

I think Qizara is close enough to Qizarate for people to make the connection. The Tafwid can be dropped if necessary.

The new era names are a good example, they are completly useless to me.

I'd argue that they're no more useless than the previous ones:

Birth Of Arakis
Cycle of the Worm
Golden Path
Awakening
Shadow Of Usul
Desert Bloom
Shy Hulud (sic)

The only one that is vaguely useful is Birth of Arrakis since that implies 'first', but that doesn't really work with the vague-post-apocalyptic-backstory. I'm open to better suggestions for the era names. We can revert to English words, if there are appropriate ones to use and they have some kind of sensible progression. Ideally, the word would relate somehow to the techs in that era so Survival might be a good name for the first one.

 

[koma13]

Well, I just want to say that as a player not too much involved into the dune universe, it is much easier to connect to the former era names than the current ones...

 

[Deliverator]

That's fine, we can rethink the Era names no problem.

 

[Ahriman]

I think we should always try keeping some 'common' words in it (prohpet not tafwid), this way it is easier to handle for people having no Dune kowlegde. This in general is very important to maintain a balance between Dune geeks and players new to Dune.

I agree with this in general.

The new era names are a good example, they are completly useless to me.

I haven't had a chance to check out 1.5.5 yet, but did they just get put in as "Ayat" rather than "Ayat - The signs of life"?
I think the explanatory taglines are good.

I still prefer the Temple of Alia to Grand Palace of Arrakeen.

I don't particularly mind. The Grand Palace could be a regular wonder.

I am relatively agnostic about the others.

Not sure about Temple of Muad'Dib for the Mahdi building.

How about Temple of the Messiah?

 

[davidlallen]

For the eras, how about shortening the English part but leaving it in. I changed the last one to make it shorter.

1) Ayat - Seeds
2) Wali - Youth
3) Mihna - Testing
4) Hajra - Seeking
5) Tahaddi - Strength
6) Ijaz - Prophecy
7) Jannah - Paradise

For the religion building/units, I agree it is hard to make the names clear to a Dune *non* expert, but still have some flavor. How about:

Grand Palace -> Temple of Alia
Mahdi Fighter -> Mahdi Zealot
Temple of Muad'Dib -> Temple of the Messiah
Tleilaxu Supremacy -> Tleilaxu Zensufism
Supreme Shrine -> Zensufi Shrine
Supreme Temple -> Zensufi Temple
Arrakian Temple -> Temple of the Maker
Arrakian Cathedral -> Cathedral of Shai-Hulud ?

 

[Deliverator]

The buildings/units sound good, but how about Altar of Shai-Hulud? It is hard to imagine the Fremen having Cathedrals when they live mostly in caves.

Not sure about the Eras, but I don't have any better suggestions at the moment.

 

[Ahriman]

This sounds fine.

 

[The_J]

The buildings/units sound good, but how about Altar of Shai-Hulud? It is hard to imagine the Fremen having Cathedrals when they live mostly in caves.

I don't know, how it's in englisch, but in german you can also say "cathedral" to a big...err..."cave dome". -> that would maybe fit.

 

[Deliverator]

"Wo ist der Dom?" is one of the few lines of German I remember from the single year I studied it at school.

The best equivalent English word meaning "big cave" I can think of is Cavern. Cavern of Shai-Hulud?

Also, I'll ease back on the Dune geekery (for now), but can we have Qizarate Priest instead of Qizarate Prophet please?

 

[davidlallen]

In a few previous posts we were fine-tuning the Qizarate Golden Path building and the Qizarate missionary. I have made the cost of the missionary 100, compared to inquisitor at 80 and most other missionaries at 60. However, currently the GP building functions as a monastery, since it is the requirement for the missionary. This makes it early in the tech tree. Ahriman suggested the GP building should require the GP tech, which is rather late game.

In vanilla civs, the monastery is required for the missionary, and both monastery and temple are early in the tech tree. Should we change Qizarate so the missionary requires a temple, and then move the GP building very late in the tech tree? Or leave GP as an early stage prerequisite for the missionary?

 

[Ahriman]

Should we change Qizarate so the missionary requires a temple, and then move the GP building very late in the tech tree?

This is my preference. We don't really *have* monastary buildings here. There's no particular reason why missionaries need to be tied to something that you call a monastary.

 

[Slvynn]

As mentioned in Art thread, part of SLV07 project i need help of graphic design of Era / Shrine popups.

1. Keep them monochromatic / make full color?
2. Please quote this , if you have suggestions what should be portrayed on each era popup, and write your suggestion please
1) Ayat - Seeds
2) Wali - Youth
3) Mihna - Testing
4) Hajra - Seeking
5) Tahaddi - Strength
6) Ijaz - Prophecy
7) Jannah - Paradise

3.
Same for shrines:
Shai-Hulud
Mahdi
Imperial
Landsraad
Qizarate
Technocrathy
Tl.Zensufism

 

[Deliverator]

I think proper BIK videos for the religious shrines are better than static images.

I'd like to try this guide at some point.

 

[koma13]

I didn't read that guide but I have the knowledge to create proper bik movies.

 

[Slvynn]

Ok then what about Eras? Biks too? Or some 2d art? And what content for it?

 

[koma13]

Ok then what about Eras? Biks too? Or some 2d art? And what content for it?

Hmm, I think the problem with making an era movie is that there is no big concept/theme behind the current eras. It's just some seperator. I would prefer having them more meaningful/thematic (like chapters in a book), but then we would need a real story...