Wait, I thought they already had a decent religion spread. This idea must happen, though. Also, some (not all) religions should obsolete eventually. For instance, Shamanism might obsolete with biology, Asatru with meteorology, Kemetism with astronomy, and Scientology with critical thinking (just kidding). These are all suggestions, but it really seems wrong to have people worship the sun when they know it's just a ball of burning gas.
Religion spread.
- Thread starter Mouthwash
- Start date
Wait, I thought they already had a decent religion spread. This idea must happen, though. Also, some (not all) religions should obsolete eventually. For instance, Shamanism might obsolete with biology, Asatru with meteorology, Kemetism with astronomy, and Scientology with critical thinking (just kidding). These are all suggestions, but it really seems wrong to have people worship the sun when they know it's just a ball of burning gas.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Just because I know you're nothing but a carbon based bio-electrical computational device doesn't mean I deny you as an entity. A ball of burning gas is rather complex at the elemental level. Who's to say there isn't a transfer of binary information via the electrochemical interactions in that ball of flame that doesn't amount to a form of sentience? I doubt very highly that anything in existence doesn't play a role in the vast interactive web of energy transactions that compiles into my definition of our reality itself, what I call the Divine. And if we, as microscopic blips in that interactive web, can deign ourselves to have self aware intelligence, how is it such a stretch to believe a planet or a star could as well?
My point is that Ancient views are not any more outdated by scientific understanding than any other religious outlook but rather aided in the shaping and further refining of the initial theories.
My point is that Ancient views are not any more outdated by scientific understanding than any other religious outlook but rather aided in the shaping and further refining of the initial theories.
That's quite a stretch. I mean, some people might hold on to their beliefs like creationists do today, but the processes involved are empirical and can be examined until it is absolutely certain that there is no sentience involved.
Seriously, who is more ridiculous- Kent Hovind or this guy?: http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/SamsG3.php?p=1
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Impossible without defining a limited and biased view of what sentience is that stems from our own potentially ignorant presumptions based on self observation. In other words, we can't eliminate the possibility of sentience in anything. The molecular level itself does not act so different than we might be seen to behave from a vastly macrocosmic viewpoint looking back at our social organizations.
I somehow don't think that that would entail bowing down to them... and certain religions (such as Kemetism) would still disappear or be massively altered even if you were correct because its mythology would be fundamentally incompatible with basic science. The sun could not give birth to all of the stars even if it were conscious.
Also, what do you think of his idea, btw?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
As a fan of the Choose Religions option, I'd prefer no religion to go obsoleted. This takes a more abstract and generalized view on those religions to accept. Besides, there are still some wiccans who, with fully considered rationale, adopt Kemetist, Hellenistic and Shamanist beliefs into their worldview. Science may not be the fully end all way to observe reality as even science itself declares the discovery that observable reactions in studies are physically variable based on the observer. Science has not yet pierced the realm of spirit enough to know exactly how everything comes to be and must admit the possibility of a more fluid reality than we might currently be agreeing it to be.
My point is, never lose objectivity. The ancients may yet be more correct on basic assertions than we'd like to give them credit for.
My point is, never lose objectivity. The ancients may yet be more correct on basic assertions than we'd like to give them credit for.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Not bad but I'd leave it to Dancing Hoskuld to see what he thinks of how it would fit in with his Religion plans.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
The only problem I see with it is that it is wrong
. His list of religions are those that have missionaries now. In the past other religions have had missionaries. If you want to be more accurate all religions go through a period of wanting to spread themselves far and wide. "Rapture" had that mechanic and one that had religions go obsolete, both don't work with the "Choose Religions" option. So if I did something like it I would have to be able to turn some bits off based on game options which currently would require having two sets of religions.
hotrodlincoln
Upasaka
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2010
- Messages
- 248
The only problem I see with it is that it is wrong
Not quite. Most of the older, "Pagan" religions felt no need to spread the word of their gods to far and distant people. Most of these religions were pretty ethnocentric. Here is a religion by religion breakdown of the religions we have, and the manner by which they spread in the real world.
Shamanism - Shamanistic belief systems are widespread across the world, and have little in common with one another, save for belief in the living spirits of all creatures (and sometimes plants) and of the shaman's power to transcend the physical world into the spirit world. Nothing that could recognizably called missionary work ever seems to have gone on among the Shamans.
Druidic Traditions - Similiar in some ways to Shamanism, with their animistic beliefs and the Druid as the central figure of the religion who can communicate with the spirits, faeries, and Gods alike. There is a marked difference here, however, as the Druids themselves were /very/ secretive about their practices. We know nothing about how the druids practiced their religion, as the Romans systematically destroyed them, and they left no written records behind. What little we know of Celtic religion is from surviving Welsh and Irish works written down by Christian monks. Given the secretive, guarded nature of the religion, I think it is safe to say that missionary work never occured. This was a very ethnocentric religion, practiced solely by the various Celtic peoples.
Tengriism - Another Animistic religion, with Tengrii sitting atop creation as an over-God figure. This religion became fairly widespread due to the far-travelling nature of it's nomadic followers. No missionary work seems to have occured, and the followers of this ancient belief readily abandoned it in favor of Islam and Buddhism.
Ngaiism - This is not a religion I will claim to know much about, but I do know that it is practiced solely by the Maasai people of Kenya and Tanzania. This one seems to be a polytheistic/animistic religion as well. Given that it's adherents never spread the religion to neighboring peoples, I think it is safe to say they never engaged in missionary work.
Shinto - A term for the indigenous beliefs of Japan, this is another animistic/polytheistic religion. There was never an impetus to spread this to outside peoples. Later Japanese Shinto adherents blended the religion with Buddhism, to the point that the two religions in Japan seem to have become one syncretic belief system. Many Japanese view Shinto as more a way of life than a religion, which, although it is not true, does reflect the Japanese attitudes towards Shinto. Shinto, like most of these animistic/polytheistic religions, do not view themselves as existing to the exclusion of other belief systems. They simple are.
Asatru - Although we most readily associate this belief system with the Norse, these were the gods of all Germanic peoples at one point in their history. This religion never seems to have spread outside of the Germanic peoples. It is worth noting that this religion did not have a real name (beyond 'Norse Mythology') until recently, when neopagans brought the ancient beliefs back to life.
Confucianism - Some debate whether this can truly be considered a religion, or a philosophy that has been followed by the Chinese through the centures with a religious zeal. What is without doubt, however, is that Confucianism does not deal with the heavens, the afterlife, spirits, or any other such matters. It is entirely a moral and ethic system for living one's life and governing others. Chinese spirituality is a folk belief system, centered heavily around ancestor worship and the Celestial Bureaucracy. Confucian belief heavily influenced neighboring peoples, but few people would call themselves "Confucian", unless they were students of the philosophy itself. This one is tricky to call, but, I would say that the Missionary unit is applicable here, as teachers who spread the philosophy.
Hinduism - Here we find the first religion that can unequivocally be stated to have engaged in some level of missionary work. In ancient days, Hindu teachers were very active in Southeast Asia, and in the modern day, many gurus have spread their teachings to a receptive western audience (Though there is considerable debate as to whether or not groups like Krishna Consciousness [Hare Krishna] can be considered Hindu)
Jainism - The Jain religion spread very quickly across India, especially during the time of Emperor Samprati, but eventually lost influence to rising Hindu devotional movements. Jain monks do not travel overseas, but beyond this, there does seem to have been some limited level of missionary work. A devoted Jain ruler in Civilization could certainly have chosen to focus on this and make missionary work a priority.
Buddhism - One of the big three (Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism), this one requires little discussion.
Taoism - Without delving into too much discussion about the religion itself, the belief system certainly was spread by teachers like Lao Tzu and Zhuang Zi. The religion does not seem to have spread from China, except alongside Chinese immigrants. Like Confucianism, it's sister-faith, this religion could potentially be considered to have missionaries in the form of teachers.
Zoroastrianism - Zoroastrianism does not allow converts. In recent years this has come under heavy discussion, in no small part because the faith is in danger of dying out entirely. No missionaries.
Judaism - Judaism forbids proselytizing to gentiles. This one is a no-brainer.
Hellenism - This polytheistic religion undoubtedly spread far and wide, but it did so alongside conquering Greeks and Romans, who built shrines and temples to their Gods in foreign lands so that their soldiers and governors would have places to worship. In many cases, local religion was simply co-opted, with local Gods being equated with Zeus/Jupiter, Poseidon/Neptune, etc. No missionaries.
Andeanism - I do not know too much about this religion, for little has been written in regards to it. The Sapa Inca (Emperor) of the Incas seems to have been regarded as a God alongside their pantheon. It appears to have been an ethnocentric religion, like most polytheistic belief systems.
Nagualism - Not only was this an ethno-centric polytheistic belief system, the practice of offering humans as ritual sacrifice to the Gods was considerably off-putting to anyone existing outside the faith. No missionaries.
Yoruba - Yoruba describes the indigenous beliefs of the Yoruba people. Without delving into too much discussion of the religion itself, it appears to be another ethnocentric polytheistic/animistic religion which never spread beyond the Yoruba people, despite the diverse groups of people who came into contact with them.
Christianity - Christianity gave us the word missionary, and has been the most actively proselytizing religion in the world since it's beginning.
Voodoo - Voodoo was originally a West African belief system practiced by the Fon and Ewe people. The belief spread to the west, where it took hold in Louisiana and the Carribean, amongst slaves who practiced it in secret while outwardly pretending to be Christian. Although the secretive nature was undoubtedly because of the persecution they faced, this is clearly not a religion with missionary activity
Islam - No brainer.
Sikhism - Sikhs do, in fact, have missionary groups, and the early Sikh Gurus would certainly be considered missionaries as well as Great Prophets.
Mormonism - Given how many of us have had cheery, smiling Mormons arrive at our doorstep to speak of their religion, the missionary activities of this faith should be obvious.
Baha'i - Baha'is avoid using the word "missionary" and claim to not engage in missionary work. However, the religion does engage in a practice known as Pioneering, where a volunteer of the faith travels to another country to teach people about the Baha'i beliefs. The Baha'is would be quick to point out that the goal is to teach, not to proselytize. However, in game terms, they would certainly be producing missionaries.
Scientology - The missionary activities here should be obvious.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
An interesting breakdown, and fairly accurate to what I'm also aware of.
Although Kemetism, Helenism and Mesopotamianism went unmentioned. They may or may not have attempted missionary work though I'd be inclined to think they might have done so in small ways. Mesopotamianism is a blend of early and late mesopotamian religions which actually had pretty large differences, but the thing to consider there is that each god's faith was in competition with the other (and this was fairly similar in the other two I mentioned as well). For all three, there was a depiction of a head council of 12 gods that although formed an overseeing divine government, so to speak, they also vied for 'Supremacy' among each other. These battles for supremacy were more pronounced among the Sumerian mythologies as it was more proposed there that the Lord God Enlil might be dethronable, whereas you don't see so much of that thinking in the Greeks and Egyptians (ok, some battles among the Greek gods yes, but a fairly clear recognition of Zeus's absolute superiority existed.)
Point being that they spread their religion in attempts to garner more support against other power sources among their own religion's scope. So they'd have had missionaries, but of an entirely different nature which would require definition of their individual cults to really express correctly. I know you had some plans of that nature DH. I'm still interested in seeing how that would pan out in C2C.
Although Kemetism, Helenism and Mesopotamianism went unmentioned. They may or may not have attempted missionary work though I'd be inclined to think they might have done so in small ways. Mesopotamianism is a blend of early and late mesopotamian religions which actually had pretty large differences, but the thing to consider there is that each god's faith was in competition with the other (and this was fairly similar in the other two I mentioned as well). For all three, there was a depiction of a head council of 12 gods that although formed an overseeing divine government, so to speak, they also vied for 'Supremacy' among each other. These battles for supremacy were more pronounced among the Sumerian mythologies as it was more proposed there that the Lord God Enlil might be dethronable, whereas you don't see so much of that thinking in the Greeks and Egyptians (ok, some battles among the Greek gods yes, but a fairly clear recognition of Zeus's absolute superiority existed.)
Point being that they spread their religion in attempts to garner more support against other power sources among their own religion's scope. So they'd have had missionaries, but of an entirely different nature which would require definition of their individual cults to really express correctly. I know you had some plans of that nature DH. I'm still interested in seeing how that would pan out in C2C.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I thought Judaism did have missionaries early on, or perhaps that was pre-Judaism. Many of the old gods spread across regions eg Isis from Egypt to Rome who spread them if not what we call missionaries in this game?
TowerWizard
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 277
Why not make every religion obsolete at some tech? It is a very good idea! Just because people adhere to Christianity and Islam today, does not mean that it will be obsoleted in the future, right?
As TB said "In other words, we can't eliminate the possibility of sentience in anything." But in the future we might get to understand exactly what makes things sentient and, thus, which things can be sentient and which things can't. That knowledge will essentially rule out religion on a rational level, making all peoples of Earth atheists (except, as always, the extremists).
(As a side note, I think we can already rule out religion on a scientific basis, but I know many people disagree)
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Destroys the game options Choose Religion and Limited Religions.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
No you can't rule out religion on a Scientific basis. That is Bunk that is being shoved upon society, and from a section of the academic world, by liberalists who do not want to take responsibility for their actions. The belief in a supreme being/creator will not disappear just because you have a scientific education that brain washes you into believing that you are the center of the universe and therefore you are God. Nor will it go away just because you keep repeating that it will.
And I'm real sad to see Tbrd post such drivel, when it will in fact do just the opposite. And calling ppl that have a belief in a religion extremist is just as extreme, and is derogatory and inflammatory. Your belief does not supersede mine or anyone else, isn't that what you "preach"?
Please stop proselytizing your "religion" of unbelief. If I were to post about religion how you post about yours (or supposed lack of) you would be calling for Moderator action. What's good for the goose is also good for the gander.
JosEPh
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Wait wouldn't not believing in god(s) mean that they would not believe they are god either? You can't be god if you don't believe in god.
Unless I suppose you really were god. Which would be ironic if God was an atheist. 
As it seems that most of the older religions didn't really "care" about spreading their faith to other countries, wouldn't it be a good idea to just move Missionaries unit late into tech tree, when there are at least few religions? (probably requiring some religion tech) Also, you coul give some bonuses to spread to some later religions like Islam.
EDIT:
Also, i think Shamanism is a little OP right now, being founded so early and having spirit alliance which VERY cool bonus of practically no
in city. It would be a good idea to tone it down or give it some kind of drawback, like i don't know, unhappines from cutting down forest or something.
EDIT:
Also, i think Shamanism is a little OP right now, being founded so early and having spirit alliance which VERY cool bonus of practically no
in city. It would be a good idea to tone it down or give it some kind of drawback, like i don't know, unhappines from cutting down forest or something.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Erm... I'd say I was taken a bit out of context there... All in all, this was my point:
Please do read back a few posts rather than taking someone's effort to use my own words to make a point contradictory to the one I was trying to make in the first place. And besides, 'sentience' does not equate to godhood. I was merely trying to say much of what you attempted to say there (surprisingly we're on the same side here) that science can't overrule any religious belief, only further refine it, with perhaps the one exception being expanded knowledge of history that may conflict with religious statements that had never previously been challenged.
But viewing spirituality, divine essences and the fundamental structure of reality as no longer being within the realm of multiple potential interpretations just because we've been able to develop biases and expectations based on scientific studies is actually contradictory to the scientific method itself, which admits that at no time do we really know anything for sure and leaves open the door or possibility that we may not have all variables considered yet.
I've experienced a number of things that fly in the face of this idea that just because we can explain a lot about physical laws and functions that it must mean there are no spiritual entities or realms interacting with our world. I can say with absolute certainty that MY experiences prove unequivocally that such entities very much DO pull strings behind the scenes of physical reality to create effects and events that no scientist can currently account for.
Lets just say at a point in time I was seeking supernatural experiences, and although it took horrendous sacrifice to find one that broke any sense of doubt, I did eventually experience 'proof'. (not that it suggested any one religion or another to be more 'true' though.) Anyhow, 'nuff said on that subject.
But I AM a liberal and would appreciate THAT political term to not be used in such a manner as to presume it implies something negative. All it means is someone who doesn't agree much with contemporary political stances and seeks to find improved methods. Its opposite, Conservative believes that generally we have/had it right and change is bad. Pretty generic. Nothing drives me nuts more than the psychomanipulative babble we get from folks over the radiowaves like Rush Limbaugh who are doing little but waging mind warfare over the American Public, and this term 'Liberal' has been terrifyingly corrupted to suit those twisted purposes.
Nevertheless, the only thing I took offense to in your comment, Joe, was that you allowed another to present my words in a way that disagreed with me and then jumped all over it like that was the stance I was taking. I don't believe science trumps religion but rather that science IS a religion when taken to that level of presuming we've really determined anything, and just as subject to potential error and misinterpretation and biased judgement.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
As it seems that most of the older religions didn't really "care" about spreading their faith to other countries, wouldn't it be a good idea to just move Missionaries unit late into tech tree, when there are at least few religions? (probably requiring some religion tech) Also, you coul give some bonuses to spread to some later religions like Islam.
EDIT:
Also, i think Shamanism is a little OP right now, being founded so early and having spirit alliance which VERY cool bonus of practically no
I will not be changing Shamanism (or Druidism which has the same sort of cathedrals) any more than I have, unless I cut back all the other religions by a similar amount.
