Religions before the Age of Rebirth.

[KillerClowns]

Oh, yeah the luonnatar could make for an excellent cult. A sort of anti-religion cult that spreads from Grigori lands. who knows maybe they could be tied into crime rates, cult of dragons could spread more likely to high crime areas, Luonnatar spreading more likely into really low crime rate areas...

Actually, the Luonnotar also seem likely to end up in areas with high crime rates. For anyone other then the Grigori, the Luonnotar would be a threat to social stability, especially for strongly religious civilizations. A well-policed area could deal with them to remove them from the equation (defeat them in debate, draft them, sacrifice them...) while a city where the authorities are too busy dealing with rampant criminals would be far less likely to spare resources for some nutty god-defying cult.
EDIT: As to defeating them in debate, it seems the Luonnotar wouldn't do very well in public debates with priests. We know they're right, but didn't figure out the existence of the One through logic and discovery. They just made a lucky guess, and the gods got cold feet about smiting them. They don't actually have much evidence to back their beliefs up.

 

[Giga-Gigan]

Its hard to know the methods of the luonnotar, but the way I associate the struggles against Luonnotar, is to that of the Catholic Church, and the Renaissance. With quality of life and Utopian lifestyle realized (the crime rate lowering), people having more time to look around and think about things... There becomes a need for the church to be needed, and the threat of people looking elsewhere (ie Luonnotar) becomes more immediate.

This makes sense to me when a religion like the Empyrean enters the mix, with cultural values that emphasizes wisdom, philosophy, and discussion it would just be a matter of time they begin to question their own religion. On the flip side the Cult of the Dragon makes sense in a high crime rate area (Ie Council Esus prone), with very vague a secretive practices, false worship of dragons might even be encouraged. In any case dragon worship would probably be most popular in the most desperate of communities, where the communal cult nature of the organization attracts the displaced and destitute.

 

[Grey Fox]

Aren't the Luonnotar all about the One? Like all the angels are false gods, only the One is the true God.

 

[Kenjister]

Its hard to know the methods of the luonnotar, but the way I associate the struggles against Luonnotar, is to that of the Catholic Church, and the Renaissance. With quality of life and Utopian lifestyle realized (the crime rate lowering), people having more time to look around and think about things... There becomes a need for the church to be needed, and the threat of people looking elsewhere (ie Luonnotar) becomes more immediate.

This makes sense to me when a religion like the Empyrean enters the mix, with cultural values that emphasizes wisdom, philosophy, and discussion it would just be a matter of time they begin to question their own religion. On the flip side the Cult of the Dragon makes sense in a high crime rate area (Ie Council Esus prone), with very vague a secretive practices, false worship of dragons might even be encouraged. In any case dragon worship would probably be most popular in the most desperate of communities, where the communal cult nature of the organization attracts the displaced and destitute.

I like the analogy with the Catholic Church, but I can't see any mass unified movement away from the religions... I can see people challenging their beliefs, but not the existence or the power of the gods. I also really can't see people looking elsewhere for truth when thier own faith is validated in obvious ways such as Priors calling down massive pillars of fire down to smite enemies, or Tsunami's rising to assist your armies. If I were living in the Bannor Empire I would gladly accept the Order, as the threat of demonic conquest is very real. Especially for some god whose existence can't really be proved.
I think most of the religions of Erebus are needed in the sense that they either counteract something (Order, Empy), ensalve some of you (OO) or simply exist for your benefit (AV, CoE)

Your idea about the Cult is great though! I guess I've never though of it being used to manipulate before, but that really sounds like Erebus!

 

[Giga-Gigan]

Well your right of course(both of you)... Gameplay-wise I've always thought of cults sort of like diseases (well not real cults, they can be perfectly ok), back in the old days the Cult of Dragons was a sort of anti-religion, stealing away culture and turning the occasional unit produced their to a zany unloyal cultist, only the Kuriotates and Sheam were immune to its effects. While I agree that in reality the Luonnotar probably wouldn't have enough manpower to eradicate religion, the design for a sort of anti-religion religion was conceived mostly impart to help complement the Griggori play style, be a nuisance to other civs, and not conflict the Cult of Dragons in terms effects.

What I'm grappling with is how to make The White Hand benign to the Illians, but a hassle to other civs.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

What I'm grappling with is how to make The White Hand benign to the Illians, but a hassle to other civs.

Slower production, food, and culture speeds? (in line with the whole "stasis" thing?)

 

[Kenjister]

Ahh, the good old days, when the Cult was a religion... man I miss that. The idea of making them cults seems nice though, too bad the guilds got cut.

As for the White Hand, maybe having the White Hand in your city can trigger an event giving the Illians some extra population and troops?

EDIT: berubeg's statis idea sounds pretty good too!

 

[thomas.berubeg]

I miss the cult too... I remember before the guilds, the Cult was a pretty cool thing. (hurt, kind of, but still cool)

I think that at least in this case, Flavor should come over fun, because, in some cases, fun is having some things go against you.

 

[Guale]

A food malus would be a big hit to new cities and could possibly destroy them which is a reason it was cut in the first place. A percent malus to culture and production would be a neat thing though.

 

[Ekolite]

I really, really disagree with bringing back cults with negative effects. It's fun to have a challenge, it's not fun to have a frustration. If cults were to be brought back they would need positive effects as well as negative effects, with greater benefits for their ''main'' player.

For example, Bhaal could provide extra expirence for units. I would also have a national unit of some sort linked to having the cult available (possibly controlling the holy city).

Also, there is no reason for the grigori to be strongly ascociated with the Luonattor. As far as the grigori are concerned they are just some other crazy, misguided cultists. The reason they are a UU in lore terms is because the grigori are more tolerant of the various religions, and although worship is not encouraged, they don't oppose generally it either.

It is debateable whether Cassiel himself even knows that they're right. If he was created by Dagda after the Gods were expelled from heaven on whatever then there is no reason for him to even know about the One.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

I miss the cult too... I remember before the guilds, the Cult was a pretty cool thing. (hurt, kind of, but still cool)

I think that at least in this case, Flavor should come over fun, because, in some cases, fun is having some things go against you.

Kael has dug his heels in on this one though, no matter how many people want it. I agree but I doupt any of this will officially happen. Without any python and .dll changes any guilds created would have to be BTS style only.

To Ekolite: I would suggest making them be civ specific only (that is they do not spread to other civs), BUT that they not be destroyed if the city is captured by a rival. In this case they should cause a negative effect, it would be a price against warmongering. You would have to choose to either Raze the City or live with your choices. That being said maybe a priest with Inquisition can remove the cult.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

It is debateable whether Cassiel himself even knows that they're right. If he was created by Dagda after the Gods were expelled from heaven on whatever then there is no reason for him to even know about the One.

Cassiel knows about the One and the true heaven based upon the pedia entries. Even his briefly mentions the true heaven. Kael has also mention that Cassiel is aware of it (I don't remember what thread though, I am sure MC has it locked away in his head somewhere).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Cassiel does know about the One, although he has never met Him personally. It is unclear whether Dagda told him about The One before they went to negotiate The Compact, but The One was a big topic of conversation at the meeting at the Seven Pines. He has heard at least a little about Him and the True Heaven from all the gods (the gods at the time that is, Nemed was not there and Cernunnos knew no more than Cassiel) and has no doubt that The One is real.

I personally tend to think that Cassiel might not have known about The One before this, and that finding out about him is a big part of why he could no longer serve any false god. I also think that Cassiel's view of The One is imperfect, and that he refuses to ascribe any qualities to him that he thinks has any resemblance to Agares. As such, he cannot imagine that The One would want worship.

 

[Giga-Gigan]

Ekolite, I have to disagree with you on this one. I could not begin to conceive the notion of cults being anything but bad to the foreign civs that encounter them. Its just too fun... One of my favorite mods (aside from FfH of course) is Saints & Sinners, because it gives disadvantages to the game. Besides I seldom use inquisitors for any reason, it would be great to send my Vicars to knock some cultists heads.

Also the White Hand spreading only through Illian lands sounds good, very reactionary. Perhaps that cult could have a zero spread rate but automatically found in a city whenever a temple of the Hand was built. Also as a bonus when the player completes the ascension ritual, all units with the White Hand Religion turn traitor to the Illians. A sort of a one time Roar of the Dragon.

Honestly that is what I miss most about the Cult of the Dragons, it hardly ever worked but when it did... Awesome. It also was my favorite Info text.