"Religions"

[Laurino]

TAM will now have a different "religions" system, based mainly on the one used in Shqype mod.

The only religion that will remain will be Christianism, because:

1- It will still be used as the mean to obtain the diplomatic victory.

2- We all know what it did to Occidental society, it's History is way too important in the last portions of the era TAM covers, so it can't be overlooked.

Note: Don't post ideas on how "bad" or "good" Christianism is or has been... Stick to gameplay come on...

So basically, city governors will replace the religions in TAM.

Only one can be present at any given time (only Christianity can be there without replacing it).

Emmissaries will replace missionaries, giving orders to the city, making it's "governor" value economic, production, growth, military or religious policies, wich will in turn influencated the city "behavior".

A 7ty "governing style" wll be applied (spread automatically) to cities of civs that weren't know as "centralized" people. As certain techs will unlock different types of emissaries, it will at one point be possible for these civs to change this city government to reflect some kind of social changes in the civs society. Think of it this way: Goths, at one point indeed built real "states", but only in some conditions, during later parts of their existance, but most of the celtic peoples remained very loosely controled by some central authorities until times not covered by TAM.

So here is the outline of it:

1- Christianity : gives vote for diplomatic victory, enables religious buildings

2- Economic gov.: boost commerce, enables some buildings, better merchant units

3- Production gov.: boost production in a general way

4- Religious gov.: used in link to Christianity, enabling buildings and boosting culture, so it has uses even if without Christianism in the city

5- Military gov.: boost units produtcion, better buildings/promotion

6- Growth gov.: emphasize on food, health, etc

7- "Loose" gov.: for non-centralized civs


Religious civics, and diplomatic victory, will also have to be adapted to fit this new feature.


Now these are guidelines and suggestions, feel free to share your ideas!

 

[Hypnotoad]

I feel like these sound like good things in general. Some worries:

1) Cultural victory will be even harder as there will be even fewer cathedrals. Something needs to replace cathedrals.

2) Religion was a huge part of society, esp. for Egypt and Babylon. I feel like something should replicate this, even if it isn't the current vanilla religion system. There should still be opportunities for a priest class, etc. Perhaps you should be able to build generic temples and cathedrals once you found a state religion? I don't know.

3) What about Zoroastrianism or other religions that could have swept over the Med? It is unclear how much of an accident of history Christianity was. I would actually be pro being able to found Zoroastrianism, Judaism and Christianity.

 

[Marmoteo]

Yeah, I do believe that religions such as Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and Christianity should remain. Probably make Judaism and Zoroastrianism religions with really slow spread rate and with no missionaries. I mean, if you take out religions itself you would also be taking away Holy Shrines, which some were pretty important.

 

[thamis]

Yes we should definitely keep generic shrines, temples, and cathedrals.

 

[Hypnotoad]

Over in the Civic forum I have some ideas for early game religion stufff...

What about making Zoroastrianism (and perhaps Judaism) a real alternative to Christianity? I like having the chance for real alternate history in TAM. How about this as an option:

Judaism: spread rate slow
Zoroastrianism: spread rate medium
Christianity: spread rate fast
That Golgotha wonder: increase the spread rate of whatever your state religion is (Judaism, Zoro, Christianity) and allow missionaries for Judasim and Zoroastrianism. This would make Christinaity most likely, but the other two a real option.

-- HT

 

[Hypnotoad]

Any thoughts about what, if anything, early Great People can build? Perhaps a generic state religion Shrine? You might consider letting it increase your culture by 50%, since there aren't enough things that do this.

 

[Jet]

Think of it this way: Goths, at one point indeed built real "states", but only in some conditions, during later parts of their existance, but most of the celtic peoples remained very loosely controled by some central authorities until times not covered by TAM.

That sounds more like a civic. Is there a historical inspiration that you have in mind for different government styles in different cities? Is it, like, each city is a kingdom and its style of government is the political "fad" among the kingdom's ruling elite (I don't know whether or not that's historically apt for the period, I'm just grasping for an analogy)?

Also, mechanically, are you talking about something like the effect of an invisible building that gives some bonus? It's just that when you say "governor" I think of the optional mechanism that automatically chooses what tiles to work and what specialists to hire, but does not give any bonuses or penalties.

 

[thamis]

Yea, it's basically having different types of governors.

 

[Jet]

Yea, it's basically having different types of governors.

To me, that doesn't disambiguate what you mean by "governor".

 

[SrWilliam]

This is what I am reading between the lines, please correct me it I am wrong.

In present TAM and vanilla civ you have state religions. Discover the religion or become exposed to it and then you can go to the praying hands screen and have a revolution to declare a new State Religion.

New TAM I think you will declare a State Government instead of a State Religion. Send emissaries to your cites and you neighbors cites to convince them to abide by this new governing philosophy.

I guess different government types will not get along with other?

 

[Laurino]

The "governors" is a replacement name for religions. Once a city would have let's say a military governor, then military things in that city could either be built faster, or be better, or both.

This "governor" wouldn't rue the city for the player like automation, it would simply "gear" that city towards a more specific purpose. We could even think about some penalities that could be given on other types of things, ie.: military governor slowing the production of some buildings, but that's just an idea for now...

 

[Hypnotoad]

Okay, the SrWilliam thing cleared that up a bit.

Maintance costs are fairly crippling when trying to take over the world. What about a later-game government type "Organized" or "Imperial" or some such that reduces maintence costs. This actually fits best with the governor idea IMO.

 

[ambrox62]

I totally disagree with religions removal.
In ancient times religions played a key role for all civs.
I can't imagine egyptians, greeks, romans, babilonians, etc.. without their Gods.

Working on civics is the way to improve TAM gameplay.
Let religions as they are.

 

[Drtad]

I also strongly disagree with religion removal. It played a very important part of Ancient Mediterranean life and politics. Egyptian polytheists and Phoenician Baalist polytheism fought with Judaism. Mardukian/Babylonian polytheism fought with Enlilite/Sumerian polytheism. Religion incited war and friendship. Therefore it should not change. However, I think it should be possible, that once a tech called "God King" is discovered, the ruler of a state can declare himself God and practice self worship in his empire. The effects could be lower production costs, but higher maintenance and +1 unhappy to every city.

 

[Chode]

For real. How could you think of removing religion in "The Ancient Mediterranean World?" Its like removing the jungle from Brazil. It has to be there. Just find a better way to impliment it.

 

[Laurino]

For real. How could you think of removing religion in "The Ancient Mediterranean World?" Its like removing the jungle from Brazil. It has to be there. Just find a better way to impliment it.

That's what we're doing here we're trying to find a better way...

 

[solanacea]

I don't understand this at all! Isn't TAM supposed to be a colloboration of the community? Now someone just "DECIDES" to remove religions and replace them with an absurd system that does not make any historical sense!
I ve been following this forum for a while, I havent seen many people complain about the religions. There can always be improvements but to completely remove a key aspect of civ 4 from TAM is just too drastic.
I wish this didnt happen overnight. This feels like a bloody coup d'etat.

 

[SrWilliam]

I would wager that 90% of the wars that ancient history called “religious wars” were really fought for social/economic reasons. I think the religion card was a way to rally the masses, as it still is today.

I would also wager that 90% of the historical events (circa 400bc) whereby Empire B converted to the religion of Empire A, it was because of the conquest, absorption and end of Empire B.

An 18 empire TAM game IMHO would need 18 religions if we wanted to fairly represent the ancient beliefs of each ancient empire. It’s impossible to have 18 pagan religions so perhaps it is better to have none?

If there are lots of pre-Christian religious buildings, lots of pre-Christian religious civics, and lots of pre-Christian religious wonders I think we can give this a try. It could make things more realistic, not less.

 

[Hypnotoad]

I don't understand this at all! Isn't TAM supposed to be a colloboration of the community? Now someone just "DECIDES" to remove religions and replace them with an absurd system that does not make any historical sense!
I ve been following this forum for a while, I havent seen many people complain about the religions. There can always be improvements but to completely remove a key aspect of civ 4 from TAM is just too drastic.
I wish this didnt happen overnight. This feels like a bloody coup d'etat.

They have been talking about this for a while. Go back -- you will find old posts. We actually now have just been given more information about what they are planning. I think you will find that they are being much more open about their design process now.

I think there may be a flaw in selling this new feature. Rather than saying "Christianity is the only religion that will remain" say "Christianity is the only religion that will use the basics of the Vanilla Civ system."

Now we need to figure out a way to model the other religions in a good way. It is true that religion played less of a role in wars than it did in the middle ages or early modern period, say. It's also true that most civilizations had their own religions or one based on a neighbor -- a mechanic that doesn't work well with Vanilla's religions-cause-wars-and-open-borders.

I like the idea that religions be modeled with Civics -- I have a god king, you have a priestly class, you are animistic, etc. Judaism and Zoroastrianism should play some role. And then Christianity should play a major role late in the game (I still like the idea of Zoroastrianism being a real alternative). But whatever: let's try to think of a new system to model the early religions.

 

[Laurino]

I think you will find that they are being much more open about their design process now.

That's exactly it, thank you... I'm trying to get the community more involved

Plans to implement a better religious system in TAM we're "in the air" since version 1.95 at least... Discussion on this subject have been going on for months on the TamDev forum We're not planning to do anything absurd, or take any drastic unilateral decision, we're asking for opinions Many religions could be represented, in a different way, we're trying to figure it out. there's only one "rule", and it's that Christianism has to play a major role in the late game, ultimately giving a religious (diplomatic) victory. For the rest keep constructive ideas coming in, and we should find a better way to represent the religious side of the Ancient Mediterranean civilizations.