Religious Economy - A Novel Strategy for Spiritual Leaders in Warlords

[morahed18]

I find religion to be the most enjoyable aspect of Civ IV, as compared to previous Civ titles. For sometime now, I've been interested in developing a new strategy that would enable a civ's financial, social and technological infrastructure to rely soley on its state religion. (I had previously explored strategies that involved founding, and propogating as many religions as possible in order to reap the economic benefits from each holy city's wonder - but I find the idea of having one state religion on which I am fanatically dependent much more fulfilling.) By no means am I suggesting that the following proposal can match the versatility or consistency of more convential cottage based economies (or even less convential specialist based economies). My only goal is to create a radically different infrastructure that can keep pace with the AI enough of the time to make the game, simply put, more fun. So, this is a work in progress, and by no means perfect. I'd love to hear any suggestions people may have.

The optimal leader for this strategy is, in my experience, Ramesses II. Hathesput, Saladin and Gandhi are also good choices. The key is to pick a civ whose special building comes early in the game, and produces GP points which will produce priests (Gandhi's Philosophical trait would presumably compensate for the lack of such a UB). Ramesses is the superior choice over the other three leaders because of his Industrial trait which will come in handy, as this strategy is based on building two wonders (The Oracle and The Spiral Minaret).

The ideal order of events are as follows -
Priesthood
Oracle --> Theology
Consume 1st Great Prophet to discover Divine Right
Spiral Minaret

This path will certainly ensure that you found both Christianity and Islam (and possibly Monotheism as well). Ideally you will hit Divine Right by 1250 BC. I have yet to determine the long term consequences of this strategy. But the idea is that a Spiral Minaret/Holy City based economy will produce enough to allow you to completely bipass cottages. I haven't tested this out very thouroughly at all, and so I'm sure that I will be back with revisions/news of total failure/etc...

 

[UncleJJ]

The obvious other wonder to add to this strategy is the University of Sangkore which gives 2 beakers for the same buildings that the Spiral Minaret gives 2 gold. That makes for a very strong combination and makes building temples and monastries in every city a good source of research and gold as well as culture.

This strategy can work at the Emperor level, see aelf's thread The Emperor Masters' Challenge 2 (on Warlords) where he successfully used this as the basis of Ramesses mid game research. I think this should be a way to supplement a specialist economy although it will also help a cottage one.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Since masonry is on your tech route anyway, getting the Pyramids might be doable also. In fact it might be better for your strategy than the Oracle since with Ramses:

- You get the industrious bonus.
- You can swim in great prophets early on if you want to - a great prophet can be burned for theology if you miss Oracle.

Stonehenge might be a good play too - especially if you get stone as early masonry is a priority. Since you are going to get two late religions you can afford to delay polytheism and go for mining/masonry first. It will help with GP and also give you your UB for free.

And if you get pyramids, then all your priests give you three science each. You don't even need libraries - you can bring in 6 science per city plus 4 gold with no infrastructure beyond the free UB.

Ankor Wat would be the other wonder to target. If you delay getting calendar, get two temples and a monastery in each city plus your UB, you can get:

4 priests
generating 12 science
plus 4 hammers (8 with Ankor Wat)
Plus 8 gold from the priests
plus 4 gold from the spiral minaret
plus possibly 4 science from University of Sangkore.

Thats a pretty awesome start for a city you can get up and running really quickly.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

And if you get teh pyramids, Representation will give you three beakers from the Priests you use...

 

[CookieCutter]

That makes for a very strong combination and makes building temples and monastries in every city a good source of research and gold as well as culture.

Does this mean that Spiral Minaret and University of Sankore give you the beakers and gold for every religious building in your empire? I dont know for sure, but I always assumed that these wonders only apply to religious buildings in the city they where built in.

 

[dutchfire]

Relgious buildings in your whole empire, but only of your state religion. At least the Spiral Minaret does that, I don't know for sure about Sankore.

 

[UncleJJ]

Does this mean that Spiral Minaret and University of Sankore give you the beakers and gold for every religious building in your empire? I dont know for sure, but I always assumed that these wonders only apply to religious buildings in the city they where built in.

It applies in all your cities but only to buildings of your state religion. So any temples, monastries and cathedral and the holy shrine of the state religion, can all get the 2 beaker and 2 gold bonus. Taken togther with say 15 cities it can add up to 15 temples, 15 monastries, 5 cathedral and a holy shrine for 36 bonusses = 72 gold and 72 beakers all of which get the multiplers in each city. That can be a significant extra research income since the gold allows you to run the research slider higher than otherwise.

The religious approach also synergises with Angkor Wat which boosts the effect of priests. Mercantilism is a good civic in mid game and helps newly founded or newly conquered cities as building a temple allows free priest specialist to be run giving 2 hammers, thereby speeding up the development of the city. New cities pay for themselves very quickly by just building a temple and monastry and that helps pay for expansion as well as give some extra research.

 

[UncleJJ]

Ankor Wat would be the other wonder to target. If you delay getting calendar, get two temples and a monastery in each city plus your UB, you can get:

4 priests
generating 12 science
plus 4 hammers (8 with Ankor Wat)
Plus 8 gold from the priests
plus 4 gold from the spiral minaret
plus possibly 4 science from University of Sangkore.

Thats a pretty awesome start for a city you can get up and running really quickly.

Actually, priests only give 1 gold and you don't get a bonus from none state religions... that would be seriously overpowered So with 2 temples in a city would only get the bonus from one (although you could change your state religion and still get the bonus).

So before Calendar you could get:

4 priests (Egyptian obelisk, 2 temples)
generating 12 science (Representation)
and 12 GPPs / turn (doubled with Pacifism)
plus 4 hammers (8 with Angkor Wat)
Plus 4 gold from the priests
plus 4 gold from the Spiral Minaret (state temple and monastry)
plus 4 science from University of Sankore (state temple and monastry)
plus 20% beakers (from 2 monastries)

Two priests are lost when Calendar is discovered but could be replaced later by a Cathedral (of the state religion for more bonusses) which gives 2 priests.

I have used this approach with both Ramesses (spiritual) and Alexander (philosophical) and it gives a highly productive and profitable religous approach.

 

[cabert]

Relgious buildings in your whole empire, but only of your state religion. At least the Spiral Minaret does that, I don't know for sure about Sankore.

it works the same. Those 2 wonders are very good paired.
The downside is you need to build a lot of stuff for what I'd call a small gain.

Let's assume you can have spiral minaret in 200 AD and university of sankore in 1000 AD (it's an example, not a guide):
You have invested 1100 hammers in those wonders (not to speak of the oracle or not)
+ you have invested 1200 beakers in DR you otherwise don't need
You have also discovered paper, but that is a useful tech.

Then you get 2 beakers and 1 gold for every monastery, temple and cathedral of your state religion.
Let's assume you have 12 cities.
That can give you 12 * 4 beakers + 12*2 gold /turn at the cost of 140 hammers in every city = 1680 hammers. If you're spiritual, it's only 100 hammers / city. + missionaries to spread the faith, but I'll assume you would spread it anyway to benefit from your state religion.
That is 48 beakers and 24 gold. Let's assume you can use the gold to fund a better science rate, so a beaker = 1 gold.
You gain 72 gold+beaker /turn.
Let's give you a 25% bonus from library and markets. You may have a better bonus in some cities, but will also have a lesser bonus in others. This gives you a total value of 90 "beakers + gold"/ turn.
It takes 13 turns to just pay for DR.

Let's value 1 hammer = 3gold (Universal Suffrage value, it's not completely absurd).
It takes another 40 turns to pay for the monasteries and (spiritual) temples you built.
Let's assume you would have built the temples anyway. It makes it down to 60 hammers/city overbuild, which represents 24 turns of repaying.
Same for the wonders.
It takes 37 turns to repay them.
This all means you spent 74 turns repaying.
If you go the fast route to DR, the spiral minaret will be paid. But University of sankore will come later, and will make a small difference + it takes away the ability to effectively expand (hammers not invested in troops).

It's still very doable, it has good synergy, and it's fun. But it's not game breaking. It's a different game.
For some "live testing", check Aelf's EMC2 thread.

It works well prepatch.

Another live testing, I can tell you a theology slingshot with Asoka is very doable (I did) on monarch after the patch.
I didn't bother with DR, since the great prophet would lightbuld meditation and I needed the shrine money from Hinduism more. I could probably try it if I still have a save but it's very unlikely.

 

[UncleJJ]

Then you get 2 beakers and 1 gold for every monastery, temple and cathedral of your state religion.

Actually Spiral Minaret gives 1 gold in Vanilla but 2 gold in Warlords That makes the strategy a lot better.

Also Stone is the key resource. All the wonders require stone for the 100% bonus and that makes the hammer costs lower. This strategy gives a great deal of free culture that helps with Domination and cultural border wars... gives free tiles

 

[cabert]

Actually Spiral Minaret gives 1 gold in Vanilla but 2 gold in Warlords That makes the strategy a lot better.

Yep.
But to commit for a 550 hammer wonder before 1AD is still a titan's work.

 

[aelf]

The religious approach also synergises with Angkor Wat which boosts the effect of priests. Mercantilism is a good civic in mid game and helps newly founded or newly conquered cities as building a temple allows free priest specialist to be run giving 2 hammers, thereby speeding up the development of the city.

I don't think there's a direct synergy there, since the two religious wonders affect religious buildings not priests. And ironically, a strategy involving Angkor Wat and its super priests would be better served by generating early GS to lightbulb Philosophy, as opposed to generating prophets to lightbulb some religion-oriented techs leading to Paper and Divine Right in the Spiral/Sankore strategy. But I'm talking in pre-patch terms so this could have changed.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[UncleJJ]

I don't think there's a direct synergy there, since the two religious wonders affect religious buildings not priests. And ironically, a strategy involving Angkor Wat and its super priests would be better served by generating early GS to lightbulb Philosophy, as opposed to generating prophets to lightbulb some religion-oriented techs leading to Paper and Divine Right in the Spiral/Sankore strategy. But I'm talking in pre-patch terms so this could have changed.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm not sure what you mean by a direct synergy. What I meant was that the first building, after a granary perhaps, in a newly founded city or one that just been conquered should be a temple. With Mercantilism a temple gives a free priest specialist and with Angkor Wat he will give 2 hammers. That temple will cost about 1 pop to whip in for a Spiritual leader and with the 2 other wonders give 2 gold and 2 beakers.

So late game, with Representation also running, whipping for one pop for a temple we get :
1 culture / turn (plus 2 from Sistine Chapel if we have that)
3 beakers, 2 hammers and a gold from the free priest.
2 gold and 2 beakers from the wonders.

Building a monastry as the next building (2 gold, 2 beakers, + 10% beakers, and 2 culture) might be better than a courthouse but that depends on other considerations (number of cities, distance etc.).

I'd call that a powerful synergy, and although Angkor Wat only adds an extra hammer to the mix, it certainly helps to kick start a new city. I've used it myself several times and found that it makes small cities pay for themselves a lot earlier than normal in the middle and late game particularly when going for domination

 

[obsolete]

I've always noticed that Spiral Minaret never gives me nearly as much income as I had hoped.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Yep.
But to commit for a 550 hammer wonder before 1AD is still a titan's work.

Industrious helps here too, so its around 2/3 of that cost. At this stage in the game thats going to tie up a production city for a while and cost a lot of forests, but its definitely doable. It means you forgo early aggression to gain a big midgame research and expansion advantage. In a game where you are either isolated or on a less crowded map I would definitely consider that a good approach.

I think stone is key to this though.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Actually, priests only give 1 gold and you don't get a bonus from none state religions... that would be seriously overpowered So with 2 temples in a city would only get the bonus from one (although you could change your state religion and still get the bonus).

So before Calendar you could get:

4 priests (Egyptian obelisk, 2 temples)
generating 12 science (Representation)
and 12 GPPs / turn (doubled with Pacifism)
plus 4 hammers (8 with Angkor Wat)
Plus 4 gold from the priests
plus 4 gold from the Spiral Minaret (state temple and monastry)
plus 4 science from University of Sankore (state temple and monastry)
plus 20% beakers (from 2 monastries)

Two priests are lost when Calendar is discovered but could be replaced later by a Cathedral (of the state religion for more bonusses) which gives 2 priests.

I have used this approach with both Ramesses (spiritual) and Alexander (philosophical) and it gives a highly productive and profitable religous approach.

I was only counting the second temple to get the extra priest early.

Since you are building so many temples and monasteries and have a good chance to found at least 2 and possibly 3 religions (I think Judaism is quite likely), I think this strategy might suit an isolated start and a cultural win really well.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

Actually, I don't select a state religion unless I need Theocracy or get SM or UoS. With no state religions, every religion contributes culture.

It makes Free Religion look potent for a Cultural win...

 

[aelf]

I'm not sure what you mean by a direct synergy. What I meant was that the first building, after a granary perhaps, in a newly founded city or one that just been conquered should be a temple. With Mercantilism a temple gives a free priest specialist and with Angkor Wat he will give 2 hammers. That temple will cost about 1 pop to whip in for a Spiritual leader and with the 2 other wonders give 2 gold and 2 beakers.

<snip>

I'd call that a powerful synergy, and although Angkor Wat only adds an extra hammer to the mix, it certainly helps to kick start a new city. I've used it myself several times and found that it makes small cities pay for themselves a lot earlier than normal in the middle and late game particularly when going for domination

While I agree Angkor Wat gives you extra benefit while running a religious economy, it is in fact quite an independent wonder and does not benefit you in the same way as SM/UoS do. That's what I meant by no direct synergy. You can have religious buildings in every city while not running priests as your specialists, and conversely you can be running priests without having monasteries everywhere.

In this light, I would suggest for the Angkor Wat 'strategy' an early focus on popping GS's, only running priests after building the wonder. One GS for an early academy and another for lightbulbing Philosophy would be perfect. Assuming you found a religion, presumably Taoism, the prophet you pop later from running the priests would come after you had a little time to spread your religion around. Better an early academy than an early shrine, yes?

 

[morahed18]

I've always noticed that Spiral Minaret never gives me nearly as much income as I had hoped.

Generally speaking, the SM won't yield an overswhelming amount of commerce. But if you are building as many state religion buildings as possible from the beginning, completing the SM should be able to create a behemoth of an economy. Obviously, spending hammers on religion instead of troops in the early/early-mid game means that you have committed to a peace-loving strategy (at least until the Industrial Age). I haven't tried other kinds of victory using this strategy, but it would seem that it lends itself most to an early diplomatic victory. If its done correctly, you should be able to get half of your opponents to share your state religion (assuming a standard map). The others can be won over by using the Spiritual trait to switch state religion momentarily (anarchy free) to gain diplomacy points via other transactions.

 

[Thyrwyn]

I've always noticed that Spiral Minaret never gives me nearly as much income as I had hoped.

The quirky thing about both the Spiral Minaret and the University of Sankore is that benefits granted by those wonders show up in each city, not the city in which the wonder(s) are built.

Lets say you have 3 cities (London, York, and Oxford), each with a temple. London has a Monestary. If you build the Spiral Minaret in Oxford you will see the following:

In London, the Temple and the Monestary each produce +2 for London;
In York, the Temple produces +2 for York;
In Oxford, the Temple produces +2 for Oxford.

What you do not get is +8 in Oxford.