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is this some sort of Russian official position ? Considering Mesut's death was to break up the Northern Alliance to prevent America supporting it to gain entrance into Afghanistan . Without Mesut's death , the operstion might have been delayed to 9/18 or whatever . It is not like that America would catch the hijackers , right ?

was asleep in that afternoon , stickily hot . Woke up with the voice of my brother telling my mother that some unknown people were creating havoc in America . ı think the second plane had already struck when ı opened the TV .
 
no issues with that . Just keep keeping out , too .
 
edit : As in the claims ı have just read that up to 94 Pakistani commandos had been killed in the recent Taliban capture of Pencşir , with the true number being around 30 . Proving Mesut was one of the greatest military leaders of the 20th Century and his legacy is still respected .
 
So I'm on page 6 of 10 of that thread and what's striking me right now is how everyone is like "OMG thoughts and prayers to the victims of this horrible attack" but then also like "can't wait to drop napalm on some fudgin towelheads"
 
The people in the World Trade Center were victims, the people who planned and executed it were not. I fail to see the inconsistency.
 
The people in the World Trade Center were victims, the people who planned and executed it were not. I fail to see the inconsistency.

Well, if you actually read the posts in question, you might. Here are some:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/world-trade-center-plane-crashes.3415/page-4#post-45884

This is nothing less than a deliberate attack on something that is the very symbol of America - For once I think (hope) that it's agood Thing that Bush is in the oval office, because I think that he might actually do something - all I'm doing is waiting to see which country will be turned into the worlds largest parking lot with in the next few days.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/world-trade-center-plane-crashes.3415/page-6#post-45922

I just heard that there were Palestinians celebrating these attacks in the streets of a West Bank Isreali town. That is just sick. Maybe some napalm would put a stop to it.

And a post a bit later referencing this rumor:
If there are scum out there celebrating this, then they should be nerve gassed
(To be fair, this guy repents later on in the thread, apologizing for this comment).

And a bit later, after the ethnic slurs started being thrown around:

The "camel****ers" can't be allowed to hide behind "innocent" civilians that support their misgiuded causes. If collateral damage happens, maybe it will be a reminder to others not to let people plot terrorist attacks in their countries.
 
I wonder if it was possible to use helicopters to fight fires and evacuate people. Break hole somewhere in the roof and dump water inside, so that it spreads on multiple floors.
Something like Mi-26 can bring a bucket with 20 tonnes of water or dry ice or whatever else is needed, in one go. May be it could cool down the construction a bit, to keep people alive and prevent collapse of the building. And there are evacuation baskets which can be used to take people out by helicopters.

I understand there was probably not enought time and multiple other reasons why it was impossible, just thinking about what could be done to help those people.
 
I was supposed to be involved in a conference call with one of the senior dudes from Akamai later that afternoon... when we called to find out why he hadn't dialed in, we were told that he was on the plane that went down after passengers overwhelmed the hijackers.

@AmtrakQuebec, you gave just enough info for me to nail this down for you, accurately.

I believe you are speaking of Daniel "Danny" Lewin (the only employee of Akamai I could find who was murdered in these attacks).

Based on a Sept. 12th, 2001 article still available from the Chicago Tribune, he was the CTO and co-founder of Akamai (but not CEO ... probably a devoted tech guy ... I understand that, being one myself).

AmtrackQ probably understands, but for the sake of others, he had apparently made significant contributions to the world because his company "used complex algorithms he [Daniel] developed to ease the routing of computer information [on the Internet]." Beyond that, he was also raised in Jerusalem and was a an officer in the Israeli Army. He left behind a wife and two sons.

One correction, though -- Manifests show that he was killed on American flight 11, the first plane to hit anything that day ... which means he was already gone by the time you saw the 2nd plane hit. Notably, his seat assignment was in business class, directly in front of one of the hijackers, and he had 2 more hijackers across the aisle a little beyond his right knee. That is tough to contemplate.

May he continue to rest in peace, and I am sorry for your, and our, loss.
 

"Here's a video of her appearance on his show; it was on November 8, 2001"

@Valka D'Ur, I just now got a chance to play this video (which is wonderful in part because he so rarely does live shows). Based on the intro with Larry, the soundtrack she mentions was "The Celts," and her mentioned "first album" was that "Watermark" I mentioned (all this after she was in an Irish foursome(?), Clannad, with her sister and broke from that). Anyway, Watermark contained "Orinoco Flow" which exploded her exposure and fan base.

"Only Time" apparently had not been released yet, so this could have been the first airing of it publicly? And I never knew that "Only Time" proceeds were to be directed to 9-11 firefighters. Most recently, it's been used in TV commercials (here in the U.S., at least) for Kraft Macaroni & Cheese, I believe. I'm hoping Kraft's(?) money for its use also went to those firefighters.
 
Hmmm, the hole in my memory must be larger than I thought. BTW, here is a fun fact from that day that you may not be able to research. CNN had been using Akamai edge services until just shortly before 9/11 but they had discontinued them for reasons I can't recall. Anywho, when the first plane hit, their web traffic went through the roof and crashed their site like a V2 test rocket (along with pretty much every other American news site)... and they had no real plan to acquire more bandwidth. Akamai, seeing they were in dire straits, offered to reconnect their bandwidth for free during this incident which CNN of course accepted... it was an easy process since they had all the server IP's anyway and the routing configs were still readily available. Suffice it to say, CNN signed a juicy contract with Akamai in the months following.
 
...when the first plane hit, their web traffic went through the roof and crashed their site like a V2 test rocket...

This is incredibly fascinating to me, because I'm pretty sure CNN is mainly where I was trying to get video from on that day (there wasn't much else out there at the time).

So, referencing my story, the fact that I was relegated to Excite News, and ended up here on CFC to get more info and talk about the event, is directly related to this CNN (dumb) decision you here related. But if CNN had not done this and had not crashed, I may never have started that thread to repost it 20yrs later, and I wouldn't be here typing this right now.

Fascinating.
 
I was 18 when I heard about the 1st plane crash.

I told people there was no way the tower would collapse.
It was designed to keep standing after a plane crash.

Didn't know it was a jumbo jet packed with fuel. :sad:


The video I always go back to remember is the Howard Stern broadcast.

It captures the silliness of life before, the mass confusion at the time, and the grimness of life after perfectly.


Everyone who was above the plane impacts in those two towers died except for 14 people.

It took until 2019 before a permanent fund was set up for the 1000's of survivors who got cancer from all the toxic debris.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/senate-vote-9-11-first-responders-bill-tuesday-n1032831
 
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I wonder if it was possible to use helicopters to fight fires and evacuate people. Break hole somewhere in the roof and dump water inside, so that it spreads on multiple floors.
Something like Mi-26 can bring a bucket with 20 tonnes of water or dry ice or whatever else is needed, in one go. May be it could cool down the construction a bit, to keep people alive and prevent collapse of the building. And there are evacuation baskets which can be used to take people out by helicopters.

I understand there was probably not enought time and multiple other reasons why it was impossible, just thinking about what could be done to help those people.

I understand where you're coming from. Two pieces of relevant info:
  1. I believe the first potential rescue helicopter on the scene reported they saw the building begin to buckle or ripple already. Remember that the 2nd plane, being so low with such a direct hit, went down in under 1 hour.
  2. The new tower is not constructed at all the same way (more concrete, less iron/metal, I believe), so there is nothing so meltable that could collapse the new tower via tons of ignited jet fuel or similar. I believe there are other fire-based improvements there for other catastrophes. The NYC battalion chief who witnessed the first plane and made the first emergency call A) survived (with a lot of luck) and B) ended up traveling to other countries to assist tall building fire safety and response across the world.
It is so sad those people could not be helped. On the one hand, they were not "fortunate" enough to have died instantly, like those in the planes and those who took direct hits from the planes. On the other hand, some got a chance to make their own final decisions about how they were going to go out (by jumping; some joining hands together). Personally, I forgive the jumpers for not thinking in that moment that they could fall on someone else. I also hope that, in that horrible moment, the jumpers resolved to look at their decision as a chance to experience one final new thing (the thinnest of silver linings).
 
I'm commenting on this because I knew some of these people (as co-users on this site), and I think that matters. And I think the basic theme here is "we're all reacting real time to something terrible and previously unimaginable."
Well, if you actually read the posts in question, you might. Here are some:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/world-trade-center-plane-crashes.3415/page-4#post-45884
This was "shadowdale". I respected and considered a good person (still do). I wouldn't read much at all into "waiting to see which country will be turned into the worlds largest parking lot." I'd consider that a very off-handed remark, not to be taken literally ... just a reference to the likelihood that the U.S. would be doing something about this later. And it doesn't even point to any specific country or group.

Also, Civ 2 was the big game here at the time, and as a player in-game, if you voted to go to war with another civilization, the game itself said you were voting to "blast them back into the stone age." Shadowdale almost used in-game lingo there.

Also late-game included nukes and using them had consequences. This is in the mindset of the intended audience.

This was "GeneralHotRod". Didn't really know this one; rarely posted in Off-Topic and didn't stick around for very long, if I recall. Perhaps a "GeneralHotHead"? (see also below...)

And a post a bit later referencing this rumor:

(To be fair, this guy repents later on in the thread, apologizing for this comment).
This was "Simon Darkshade". Definitely one of the "good guys." I respected and exchanged with him often.

You have to remember that EVERYTHING we were sharing that morning, anything we didn't see with our own eyes on video, were rumors. All of it. That's the nature of that thread. We can only label certain things as "rumors" now, and other things as "fact," in the hindsight of knowing all that we can know now.

And for both of the above, taking the possibility that ANYONE would celebrate such massive, horrible death, I totally get the visceral response in the neighborhood of "anyone who celebrates this -- any.one. -- themselves does not deserve to live." ... as a visceral response (without intent to act on it).

Many of us would like to think of ourselves as people who, if a Muslim country had a nuclear accident that killed thousands, we Americans (at least a decent % of us) would at least express some solidarity and sympathy for the losses, even after 9-11.

But back to the topic at hand, up to this point, I would not deem any of the above as overtly racist or otherwise inconsistent.

And a bit later, after the ethnic slurs started being thrown around:
And this was "H Tower". Yeah, here is when we get into some racism. Not cool.

I didn't know this user very well. As best I can tell, "H.T" had just joined days earlier.

But to balance, in the same thread H.T. is rebutting true trolls putting out that the U.S. engineered this on purpose in order to start WW3. There are definitely some bad, bad apples in that thread, but I wouldn't but H.T. in that group.

I get his basic point that it sucks to be the "good guys" caring about innocent collateral damage / human shields (that only Ironman could deal with effectively ... years later in 2008 ... and I would bet that scene derived from this sentiment), and so maybe we should be as bad as the bad guys, to level their advantage on us and deter further attacks (taking the position that we're too soft on such threats). But it definitely would have been much better to say that without the racism.

I don't agree with H.T.'s point, BTW. I'm not "an eye for an eye" kind of guy.

This is the same premise used in pop culture super hero movies as far back as at least Superman II -- "he actually cares about these [humans]" -- that the good guys try to avoid any collateral loss of life at all, and it puts them in a bad situation when innocents are used by the "bad guys." But if we are going to be the good guys, we also have to care.

As it turns out, we became "bad guys" using waterboarding at Guantanamo Bay, until whistle-blowers supposedly put a stop to that ... and made us "better guys?" :undecide:


All in all, it thought you were going to call out the true crazies in that thread ... users we already knew were crazies, because they were ALWAYS trolls on every topic ... even back before we ever used that term.

Spiff :scan:
 
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