[NFP] Renaissance Era Policy Card Elimination Thread.

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Duke William of Normandy

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This time about the (regular) Renaissance policy cards.

In this post, you will find more information on the elimination thread, so if you are looking for the policy list, do proceed to the next post.

I reckon that the considerations listed in the previous thread are just as relevant as earlier, so I would recommend thinking about the following questions before voting:
  • When/where in the Civics tree is the policy unlocked?
  • How frequently and for how long do you use the policy?
  • Is the policy an auto-include in your government or is it situational?
  • How long does the policy last before it becomes obsolete?
  • How good is the policy relative to its competition? (Military to Military, Economic to Economic, etc.)
  • Is the policy a universal solution or geared towards a specific victory type?
The rules are as usual:
  • Each post should contain one downvote (-3 points) and one upvote (+1 point).
  • Votes must have a corresponding explanation.
  • You may vote once every 24 hours.
  • When a Policy reaches 0 or fewer points it is eliminated and should be removed by the next poster.
  • No particular victory type or civilization is assumed.
  • Game and map settings are left at default, NFP games modes are disabled.
  • Continous up/downvoting of a given policy by the same user should be avoided.
  • Please do not add non-voting posts to the thread as they are subject to removal.
A quick list of recent elimination threads can be found below:

NFP Elimination Threads
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ancient-and-classical-buildings-elimination-thread.668208/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/medieval-era-policy-elimination-thread.668481/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/classical-era-policy-elimination-thread.668068
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ancient-era-policy-elimination-thread.667807/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...mination-victories-elimination-thread.664641/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/sneak-peek-at-composite-victory-type-rankings-so-far.661225/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/cultural-victory-elimination-thread-no-ss.661203/page-16
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/city-states-elimination-thread.660516/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/religious-victory-elimination-thread.659828/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/domination-victory-elimination-thread.658838/

Previous Gathering Storm Elimination Threads
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...he-hands-of-the-ai-elimination-thread.656981/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/music-theme-elimination-thread.651945/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/diplomatic-victory-elimination-thread.650579/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-unique-ability-elimination-thread.648643/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gathering-storm-leader-ability-elimination-thread.649233/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/unique-unit-elimination-thread.647892/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/science-victory-gs-elimination-thread.654506/

Before GS Elimination Threads
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civilization-ability-elimination-thread.639612/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/leader-ability-elimination-thread.637762/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/unique-unit-elimination-thread.631713/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/unique-infrastructure-elimination-thread.638688/
 
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To start, use this list:

Native Conquest (20)
Colonial Offices (20)
Invention (20)
Frescoes (20)
Machiavellianism (20)
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (20)
Triangular Trade (20)
Drill Manuals (20)
Rationalism (20)
Free Market (20)
Liberalism (20)
Wisselbanken (20)

As a reminder, here is what they do:

  • Native Conquest: Combat victories over units from earlier eras provide Gold equal to 50% of the Combat Strength of the defeated unit.
  • Colonial Offices: +15% faster growth and 3 Loyalty per turn for cities not on your original Capital's continent.
  • Invention: +4 Great Engineer points per turn. +2 additional Great Engineer points for every Workshop.
  • Frescoes: +2 Great Artist points per turn. +2 additional Great Artist points for every Art Museum.
  • Machiavellianism: +50% Production towards Spies. Spy operations take 25% less time.
  • Wars of Religion: +4 Combat Strength when fighting civilizations that follow other religions.
  • Simultaneum: Extra Faith from buildings in Holy Sites: +50% if city population is 15 or higher, +50% if district has at least +4 adjacency bonus.
  • Religious Orders: All religious units gain +5 Religious Strength in theological combat.
  • Logistics: +1 Movement if starting turn in friendly territory.
  • Triangular Trade: +4 Gold and +1 Faith from all Trade Routes.
  • Drill Manuals: All improved Niter and Coal resources yield 1 additional resource per turn.
  • Rationalism: Extra Science from buildings in Campuses: +50% if city population is 15 or higher, +50% if district has at least +4 adjacency bonus.
  • Free Market: Extra Gold from buildings in Commercial Hubs: +50% if city population is 15 or higher, +50% if district has at least +4 adjacency bonus.
  • Liberalism: +1 Amenity to all cities with at least 2 specialty districts.
  • Wisselbanken: Your Trade Routes to an Ally's city or a city-state you are the Suzerain of provide +2 Food and +2 Production for both cities. Alliance Points with each ally grow 25% faster.
Here is a list of all the Policy Cards eliminated:


1: Wisselbanken
2: Logisitics
3: Machiavellianism (Post #138): A good Diplomatic Card that can be used to speed up your Spies and allow you to sabotage your Enemies and bring more Gold to you more efficiently than you would without this Card, but in the end, it's beaten out by both Wisselbanken and Logistics in terms of usefulness.
4: Triangular Trade (Post #135): Quoting @DogeEnricoDandolo, it's not very useful if you have very few Trade Routes, but once you have more Trade Routes, the Yields can be extraordinary.
5: Invention (Post #127): One of the more useful Great People Cards, given the ease of building Workshops. However, as most Great People Card tend to be, it still has less use than other Policy Cards.
6: Drill Manuals (Post #100): Most certainly useful whenever you get bad spawn RNG with no nearby Coal and Niter, when you're rolling in these Resources, what's the use?
7: Wars of Religion (Post #99): Not very many times that you're going to be using this Card, which, while it has its benefits, doesn't really make much of a difference.
8: Rationalism (Post #84): Like Simultaneum and Free Market: the Yields, while they can be more rewarding, just have a hard-to-reach height that wide players can't take advantage of.
9: Religious Orders (Post #82): Pretty much only useful for a Religious Victory, which while it can be useful, is not a huge priority and takes up a Military Policy Card.
10: Liberalism (Post #66): Like Retainers, but less reliable and less efficient.
11: Simultaneum: (Post #59): The same thing with Free Market, except with Faith.
12: Colonial Offices (Post #47): Relies too much on Map RNG and not enough Yields to justify this.
13: Frescoes: (Post #40): You will already get more than enough Great Artists without this Card, and you'll get too many you can't use if you do use this.
14: Native Conquest (Post #30): Like Free Market, there are better ways of getting Gold than plugging this card.
15: Free Market (Post #23): Provides lackluster Yields, requires far too much effort to get its bonuses from, and there are better, more efficient ways of getting Gold.
 
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Compared to the medieval cards, this seems like a really strong list, though not quite as top-heavy. Depending on the circumstances, I think I could use almost any of these cards in any given game.

Native Conquest (17) (20-3)
Colonial Offices (20)
Invention (20)
Frescoes (20)
Machiavellianism (20)
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (20)
Triangular Trade (21) (20+1)
Drill Manuals (20)
Rationalism (20)
Free Market (20)
Liberalism (20)
Wisselbanken (20)

Triangular Trade (21) - Renaissance is when my economy starts to really take off, and this card is a big reason why. It's not unusual to be up to 8-10 trade routes at this point (more if playing SS mode, England, Mali, etc.), and this cards adds a solid chunk of gold and a nice little bit of faith to all of them. It's also particularly nice to get added gold on top of your domestic routes.

Native Conquest (17) - One of the few cards on the list I don't think I've ever used. In theory if your opponents have a large army and you have technological superiority I guess you could get a decent amount of gold, but I don't see it ever being too significant, and in those circumstances I would usually just take their cities anyway.
 
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Native Conquest (14) (17-3)
Colonial Offices (20)
Invention (20)
Frescoes (20)
Machiavellianism (20)
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (20)
Triangular Trade (21)
Drill Manuals (20)
Rationalism (20)
Free Market (20)
Liberalism (20)
Wisselbanken (21) + (20+1)

Native Conquest - Echoing the above I've never used this card.

Wisselbanken - Playable in any game as long you have at least one suzerainty and money, food, and production are always useful.
 
Native Conquest (14)
Colonial Offices (20)
Invention (20)
Frescoes (20)
Machiavellianism (20)
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (20)
Triangular Trade (21)
Drill Manuals (21)(20+1)
Rationalism (20)
Free Market (17)(20-3)
Liberalism (20)
Wisselbanken (21)

Free Market (17)(20-3) I've never used this. Don't even know when it gets unlocked. At this point in the game, you should be earning lots of gold anyway, most of it from trade routes. Using up an economic slot on this card is not a good plan.

Drill Manuals (21)(20+1) Can't imagine this card will do too well, so I'll give it some early love now. I frequently run out of coal—either because the game has screwed me with resource generation, or because I'm using it all on my coal plants.
 
Native Conquest (14)
Colonial Offices (20)
Invention (20)
Frescoes (20)
Machiavellianism (20)
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (21) (20+1) Mobility in general is pretty awesome, and even if you're playing completely peacefully this can really help your builders, military engineers, and late-game settlers. Being able to move a builder onto a hill or forest and improve the tile on the same turn is pretty handy.
Triangular Trade (21)
Drill Manuals (21)
Rationalism (20)
Free Market (14) (17-3) Even if I managed to actually get a bunch of CHs with high enough adjacency to take advantaged I probably still wouldn't bother with this. There's plenty of other ways to get gold.
Liberalism (20)
Wisselbanken (21)
 
Native Conquest (11) = 14 - 3 ➔ Too niche; not to mention I don't war enough that this would help me under optimal circumstances.
Colonial Offices (20)
Invention (20)
Frescoes (20)
Machiavellianism (20)
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (21)
Triangular Trade (21)
Drill Manuals (22) = 21+1 ➔ I also run out of coal a lot so this is one of the more useful military policies for me.
Rationalism (20)
Free Market (14)
Liberalism (20)
Wisselbanken (21)
 
Native Conquest (11)
Colonial Offices (20)
Invention (20)
Frescoes (20)
Machiavellianism (20)
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (21)
Triangular Trade (21)
Drill Manuals (22)
Rationalism (21)
Free Market (11)

Liberalism (20)
Wisselbanken (21)

Rationalism (20+1) is a game changing card. Harder to use than it used to be but with some planning or the right civ it can amount to a lot of extra yield. Free Market (14-3) I usually find that trade routes are more than enough and that the extra cash is usually less valuable than other things I could slot...
 
Native Conquest (11)
Colonial Offices (20)
Invention (20)
Frescoes (20)
Machiavellianism (21) (20+1)
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (21)
Triangular Trade (21)
Drill Manuals (22)
Rationalism (21)
Free Market (8) (11-3)
Liberalism (20)
Wisselbanken (21)

Well, Renaissance list looks much more interesting than Medieval:)

Machiavellianism (21) (20+1) - I like this card a lot and give it my early upvote. Spies are expensive and their operations take time, but this card is considerable help in the spying game - spies get out of the academy faster, so they start earlier and steal more frequently. Real profit.

Free Market (8) (11-3) - The requirements are draconian, and the rewards - nothing to write home about. Triangular Trade will beat this card most of time.
 
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Native Conquest (11)
Colonial Offices (20)
Invention (20)
Frescoes (20)
Machiavellianism (20)
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (21)
Triangular Trade (21)
Drill Manuals (22)
Rationalism (22) (21+1)
Free Market (8) (11-3)

Liberalism (20)
Wisselbanken (21)

Free Market: Let's see if this goes before Native Conquest. Also, never really use this when Rationalism is involved, and I have a steady flow of gold that makes me not need this.

Rationalism: See above: Science is king. Just really helps, even in the mid-game.
 
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Interesting selection of cards, but no clear favourite like the last round.

Native Conquest (9)
Colonial Offices (20)
Invention (20)
Frescoes (17)
Machiavellianism (20)
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (21)
Triangular Trade (21)
Drill Manuals (22)
Rationalism (22)
Free Market (8)
Liberalism (20)
Wisselbanken (21)

Native Conquest 9 (8+1): Going to give this one an upvote before it disappears just to talk about when it might be used. IIRC this is an OG card from back in the day when the game was much simpler. I played on lower levels then (Prince/King) and could by comfortably ahead by the time this card came around. With few cards to compete with it, I would occasionally plug it in if I was ROFLstomping the AI. But if you're that far ahead, you probably don't need the gold.
The other occasions I have used it is when you come across Barbarian Island and it's infested with Swordsmen and Archers and you've got Musketmen and Frigates. Then it can net you a tidy little sum of gold in a short period.

Frescoes 17 (20-3): Getting GWAM is never a problem if you're playing a culture game. The problem is where to put all your writings, art and music. Plus they're not what really win you culture games - Rock Band, National Parks and Seaside Resorts coupled with tourism multipliers are what win you the game. If this card offered +2 slots per Theatre Square, that might be a card worth having.

Edit: updated with other peoples scores
 
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Two corrections needed:
Machiavellianism (21)
Free Market (5)
 
Native Conquest (9)
Colonial Offices (17) (20-3) - I don't find this particularly helpful. I only settle cities that aren't going to flip due to loyalty pressure. I find that new cities either don't need loyalty help (they are close to my capital and main cities) or they are too far away (-15 to 20) that an extra buff won't much help. An additional requirement is being on a foreign continent, making this even harder to leverage. I'm usually done settling when this card becomes available too.
Invention (20)
Frescoes (17)
Machiavellianism (22) (21+1) - I like spies, and early spies are better, since they take time to earn promotions. This significantly boosts spy production (spies seem quite expensive, although I'm actually not certain what determines their production cost) and shortens the duration of operations. It's also a green card. There is more competition for green cards lately, but maybe still not as much as for orange cards.
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (21)
Triangular Trade (21)
Drill Manuals (22)
Rationalism (22)
Free Market (5)
Liberalism (20)
Wisselbanken (21)
 
Native Conquest (6)
Colonial Offices (17)
Invention (20)
Frescoes (18)
Machiavellianism (22)
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (21)
Triangular Trade (21)
Drill Manuals (22)
Rationalism (22)
Free Market (5)
Liberalism (20)

I have literally never used Native Conquest in my many hours of playing the game. However, when playing a cultural game, I always slot in Frescoes as soon as I unlock them, to make sure I can pick up all those early religious artworks and get great theming bonuses from the get-go.
 
Native Conquest seems to be down 3 points more than it should, looking at posts 13 and 14. Note sure how to vote yet.
My mistake. Oops... Native Conquest should be at 8 instead of 6.

Native Conquest (8)
Colonial Offices (17)
Invention (20)
Frescoes (18)
Machiavellianism (22)
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (21)
Triangular Trade (21)
Drill Manuals (22)
Rationalism (22)
Free Market (5)
Liberalism (20)
 
Native Conquest (8)
Colonial Offices (17)
Invention (20)
Frescoes (18)
Machiavellianism (22)
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (22) (21+1) In my opinion, the main value from this card is moving builders faster. We all know the value of builders, so it should be a no-brainer as to why this is strong.
Triangular Trade (21)
Drill Manuals (22)
Rationalism (22)
Free Market (2) (5-3) You can get gold in many different ways, however this method is not effective nor practical. I don't think I've ever slotted this in anyways, because there are other gold cards such as Triangular Trade or Naval Infrastructure that will provide much more gold than this ever will.
 
So quick for the next elimination thread? That's surprising.

Native Conquest (8)
Colonial Offices (17)
Invention (20)
Frescoes (18)
Machiavellianism (22)
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (23) (22+1) One of the best military card for both peaceful and war time.
Triangular Trade (21)
Drill Manuals (22)
Rationalism (22)
Free Market (ELIMINATED) Never used this. CH buildings are underwhelming. I don't even build banks.
Liberalism (20)
Wisselbanken (21)
 
Native Conquest (5)
Colonial Offices (17)
Invention (20)
Frescoes (18)
Machiavellianism (22)
Wars of Religion (20)
Simultaneum (20)
Religious Orders (20)
Logistics (24)
Triangular Trade (21)
Drill Manuals (22)
Rationalism (22)
Wisselbanken (21)
Liberalism (20)

Logistics: If comparing policy cards, it's worth considering how good they are based on the situations you'll want to use them in: how often they occur, and how many of them there are. Logistics, I'll slot when I have a Military slot I'm not using for something else, because faster builders (and military engineers) are useful - very often!

Native Conquest: I slot this in when I need Gold, but I'm also attacking another civ that is less technologically advanced than me, but I DON'T need other policy cards to boost my invasion or don't, for whatever reason, want to use an Economic card for a more reliable source of gold. So, uh, never. Bad policy card.
 
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