[NFP] Medieval Era Policy Elimination Thread

[fy00sh]

Naval Infrastructure should be on 8 I believe.

yeah, and Retinues should be on 19

 

[hhhhhh]

Use the following for further voting.

Chivalry (2)
Craftsmen (17)
Gothic Architecture (9)
Merchant Confederation (29)
Naval Infrastructure (8)
Professional Army (31)
Retinues (19)
Serfdom (36)

 

[kaspergm]

Chivalry (ELIMINATED) (2-3) - It’s not a bad card, but it’s more niche than anything else that remains IMO.
Craftsmen (17)
Gothic Architecture (9)
Merchant Confederation (30) (29+1) - not sure where to put my vote, but don’t think I have upvotes this before, and the combination of a strong card (generally gives you more GPT than other gold cards at this stage) that goes into a low priority green card slot makes it one of the top cards on this list IMO.
Naval Infrastructure (8)
Professional Army (31)
Retinues (19)
Serfdom (36)

 

[Archon_Wing]

Craftsmen (17)
Gothic Architecture (9)
Merchant Confederation (30)
Naval Infrastructure (5) 8-3 Good, but comes on a leaf civic and requires a specific setup. And while harbors are easy enough to get, you have little control over where the seafood spawns and sometimes you just don't get enough good sites.
Professional Army (31)
Retinues (20) 19+1 This is most useful when it comes to upgrading any kind of bombard push, but muskets to a lesser degree. It may be the only way to take down high level walls at all.
Serfdom (36)

 

[Drivingrevilo]

Craftsmen (14) (17-3)
Gothic Architecture (9)
Merchant Confederation (31)(30+1)
Naval Infrastructure (5)
Professional Army (31)
Retinues (20)
Serfdom (36)

Craftsmen (14) (17-3) Spreading out downvotes a bit. I always liked Craftsmen, even more now that it's a red card. But in some games, I just don't build that many IZs until the late game, by which point Craftsmen has been replaced by Five-Year Plan.

Merchant Confederation (31)(30+1) This is my personal preference for 2nd place. Someone said 'you don't get much gold' from it, but I completely disagree. With the Better Reports Mod, you can see exactly how much it gives — and it's regularly in the region of 40, 50, or 60 gpt.

 

[Leucarum]

Craftsmen (15)
Gothic Architecture (9)
Merchant Confederation (28)
Naval Infrastructure (5)
Professional Army (31)
Retinues (20)
Serfdom (36)

I never like it when this happens but I think my vote is the opposite of the previous. I upvoted Merchant Confederation (31-3) before but I'm not convinced this elimination thread has a runaway choice for 2nd place. It's Serfdom and everyone else. I'll probably also downvote professional army at some point...

Craftsmen (14+1) has become a lot more valuable since becoming a red card. Those are the slots which get shuffled in and out most frequently, so having a card you'd be happy to have permanently occupy that slot is a big deal. IZ adjacencies can easily go through tbe roof too with a small amount of careful planning. I'd put it on a par with the confederation and professional armies.

 

[AntSou]

Craftsmen (16)
Gothic Architecture (9)
Merchant Confederation (28)
Naval Infrastructure (5)
Professional Army (31)
Retinues (17)
Serfdom (36)

Craftsmen (15 + 1)
Retinues (20 - 3)

______________________
I'm posting my entire reasoning for the remaining cards in a single post because I've trouble memorising which card does what, and also so that it saves me time in future posts (so I don't have to think it through all over again):

1. Serfdom - Too much value, and if played wisely doesn't even need to occupy a slot for long.
2. Professional Army - Cheap upgrades are essential to retain the hardness of your highly promoted units.
3. Craftsmen - Not as useful as MC when it's first made available, but at its peak the value from extra hammers surpasses that from the extra gold.
4. Merchant Confederation - I feel this is like an n-shaped curve. It's very useful when it comes online, giving you a large boost of gold when other sources are low, but this card loses value as you gain access to other sources of gold. Its usefulness is also somewhat deteriorated by enemy spy missions and conquering/razing of city-states. (Heavily dependent on map size/amount of CS. I tend to prefer < Standard size)
5. Gothic Architecture - Large availability of wonders by the Renaissance Era and the specificity of location they require, makes boosts to wonder production not as essential.
6. Naval Infrastructure - Not as beneficial as the others, in general. Probably surpasses MC at some point when employed by heavily coastal Civs.
7. Retinue - I find myself more often than not in black or white scenarios. I either lack the resources to build certain units in the first place, or I have them in abundance. I rarely feel the need to employ this. When I do need this card, often just waiting until I have enough is sufficient.

 

[bengalryan9]

Craftsmen (16)
Gothic Architecture (6) (9-3) Probably the card remaining on the list that I use the least, TBH. I find it hard to justify slotting this in over a lot of better cards from this era or from previous eras, but then I'm not someone to chase after countless wonders either. Will it help with things like Kilwa? Sure, I guess, but I've never found Kilwa to be that hard to build anyways even on Deity.
Merchant Confederation (28)
Naval Infrastructure (5)
Professional Army (31)
Retinues (18) (17+1) I don't really buy this whole "well if I don't have any strategic resources I wouldn't be able to use this card" argument at all. Trade! Retinues is the difference between being able to trade for 20 niter to upgrade 1 unit or being able to trade for 20 niter to upgrade 2 units (or if you're taking advantage of a UU, *4* units). That strikes me as a pretty big deal.
Serfdom (36)

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Craftsmen (16)
Gothic Architecture (6)
Merchant Confederation (28)
Naval Infrastructure (5)
Professional Army (32)
Retinues (15)
Serfdom (36)

Professional Army 32 (31+1): As I've said before, this card is used for every victory type apart from religious. Upgrading your 3 archers to crossbowmen to get the tech boost costs 750 gold, at a point in the game where 750 gold is a lot. This card will save you a ton of gold and be plugged in and out to mass upgrade units as you require. I'm upvoting this over Merchant Confederation only because I will make sure to go out of my way to get it, whereas MC I'll be like "oh yeah, I got this card now, better plug it in"

Retinues 15 (18-3): The warmongers have made a passionate defence of this card, but I don't understand how it's hung around as long as it has. You will only use this card if you're on the attack and you haven't got enough niter/iron to build yourself a load of bombards/musketmen/knights. Science, Religion, Culture and Diplomatic victories don't need it.

 

[MrRadar]

Craftsmen (13) (16-3)
Gothic Architecture (6)
Merchant Confederation (28)
Naval Infrastructure (6) (5+1)
Professional Army (32)
Retinues (15)
Serfdom (36)

Craftsmen (13) (16-3) This card may sound good, but... how many IZs with high adjacency do you usually build in Medieval? A high adjacency IZ usually takes an eternity to set up, with all those aqueducts, dams and canals. By which time this card becomes obsolete. I did use this card but extremely seldom.

Naval Infrastructure (6) (5+1) I'll upvote this again with the same arguments as in my previous post, and because I'm not in the mood to upvote anything else Also, I believe I build more early harbours on average than I build early IZs. I like production, don't get me wrong, but I build IZs mainly to have a shot at Brunelleschi, Eiffel and Shah Jahan, maybe Imhotep or Isidore, if I'm that lucky.

 

[Vargas1]

Craftsmen (14) (13+1)
Gothic Architecture (3) (6-3)
Merchant Confederation (28)
Naval Infrastructure (6)
Professional Army (32)
Retinues (15)
Serfdom (36)

Craftsmen (14) - It's not that tough to get a decent adjacency on a couple of IZs (one strategic resource, an aqueduct, and a city center give you a +4 right there, not to mention government plaza, a couple of mines, etc.). If you're not constantly warmongering that production is worth doubling most of the time. And the real benefit is when you get to coal power plants, which is at (for me) a priority beeline tech. Then production in your empire takes off dramatically. And if you do beeline Industrialization, you'll often end up there well before the card becomes obsolete.

Gothic Architecture (3) - I love wonders and I build a lot of them, including from this era (Kilwa, Forbidden City, often Alhambra/Potala). This card helps and is useful, but is not an essential card for any game - you can build most of those wonders just fine without ever using it.

 

[GinandTonic]

All the remaining cards are situationally useful, but...

Craftsmen (15) (14+1) If Craftsmen isn't in a red slot for the vast majority of the game something has gone terribly wrong. IZ adjacencies are by far the easiest in the game. Circa +10% prod in your best cities is huge. Other red cards may be lifesavers for a few turns but for three eras this is probably plugged in.
Gothic Architecture (z's dead baby) (3-3) Wonders in big cities would benefit almost as much from Craftsmen. Occasionally requirements mean you have to build it in a weak city. Rarely worth the cost of the slot.
Merchant Confederation (28)
Naval Infrastructure (6)
Professional Army (32)
Retinues (15)
Serfdom (36)

 

[kryat]

Craftsmen (15)
Merchant Confederation (28)
Naval Infrastructure (7) (6+1)
Professional Army (32)
Retinues (12) (15-3)
Serfdom (36)

Naval Infrastructure - I rarely have harbors that have less than +4 adjacency, thanks to CH triangles. Doubling that and with shipyards gives you an extra 4 production that you do not have to work tiles for. If you were lucky to have a sea resource near by, that’s +5. Let’s say you have 10 coastal cities. This card adds 4-5 production to all of them and nets you another 40-50 gold, giving you around 450 extra gold every 10 turns. That would take a lot of envoys to match in merchant confederation, and that doesn’t give you the production bonus. The production bonus might seem small, but it’s big because it applies to all harbor cities unconditionally of what they’re building, on top of what tiles they are working. 4-5 extra production is a 10-20% boost to small-medium cities at this point in the game. I always have this on once unlocked, until the combined CH+harbor card.

Retinues - I mostly play peaceful. Since gathering storm, I have finished exactly 0 domination games because I find them boring halfway through. Even though I build defensive armies, I am never short on these strategic resources, and often find myself maxed out on inventory. I never play this card.

 

[Vizurok]

Craftsmen (16) (15+1) Anything that adds real benefits and lets me fill up my useless red slots somewhat permanently is very much welcome in my peaceful games.
Merchant Confederation (28)
Naval Infrastructure (4) (7-3) If you are in a situation that @kryat has described, then of course this card will work wonders. Nowadays, however, I don't really get map scripts (all standard Continents is my default setup) that allow for strong naval play, usually I even have to struggle to get two coastal cities for the Navigation boost. Also, while CH-Harbor triangles are nice and all, I can't rationalize going for a semi-useless district when I have much more impactful districts to build in my cities - thus, my adjacencies are not that amazing. Also, it's on a leaf civic that I usually only research when I need to slot in something quickly. Also, it's a brown card and there are only so many better cards competing for my attention. (obviously, not in this round, as this is the second-to-last brown card to get eliminated).
Professional Army (32)
Retinues (12)
Serfdom (36)

 

[Amrunril]

Craftsmen (15)
Naval Infrastructure (4)
Professional Army (32)
Retinues (9)
Serfdom (33)

Retinues (12-3=9) can be a strong card under the right circumstances, but there are also a lot of games where you just don't need it, whether because you have an excess of resources or because you're playing defensively and can rely on resourceless units.

Professional Army (32+1=33) is powerful in basically every game, really to a game warping degree, regarding the balance between building and upgrading units. This ensures that, in addition to being faster than building new units and conserving promotions, upgrading existing ones is just plain more efficient. I'd argue that a bad state of balance, but a card that enables this without even needing to be slotted in most of the time is clearly top tier.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Correcting the scores here since Amrunril accidentally lowered Sefdom's points, didn't raise Professional Army's points, and Vizurok didn't add properly for Craftsmen. No shade meant.

Craftsmen (17)
Naval Infrastructure (4)
Professional Army (33)
Retinues (9)
Serfdom (36)

 

[Francel]

I find it amusing that naval infrastructure is sitting at 4 largely because many people find it "niche" or won't use harbors in every game, and certain favorable conditions need to be met. Retinues is currently sitting at 12. I have never done a bombard or musket timing push. Rarely do I even seek to conquer any cities. I don't know how many bombards people need, but I would think 1-2 are more than enough to break down city walls in conjunction with a supporting army. By the time bombards are available, niter should have already been unlocked and improved, and I'd have enough for as many bombards as I need/want. If i had no niter at all, I don't think buying it would be worthwhile, as I find AI wants a steep price for it. If I wanted to do a niter unit rush, I don't think this card would much help, not that I ever would. As for warriors into swords, again, I feel the timing is off from unit to card unlock, and I don't know if I ever had a situation where this card has been or would have been helpful.

Those persons who feel differently from me, I don't think they are "wrong," but that we play the game quite differently. Therefore, we are both right from our own perspectives. Another example of why these elimination games carry a grain of salt.

However, I do feel that naval infrastructure, as aptly detailed by @kyrat, is both "wider" and "stronger". That is to say it has more universal benefits (more games, more playstyles) and stronger effects (gold, production, science) and is attached to a district that itself has multiple roles (much like holy sites, imo).

(I used to play mainly pangea, but recently have favored continents. On continents, I rarely find myself far from water. Naval gameplay has been surprisingly refreshing as of late.)

Thus, I shall vote exactly the same as Kyrat: Retinue down and naval infrastructure up.

Craftsmen (16)
Naval Infrastructure (5)
Professional Army (33)
Retinues (6) (9-3)
Serfdom (36)

Edit: There was a score correction at the same time I posted. My numbers should be correct now.

 

[hhhhhh]

The last few votes are a mess. Merchant Confederation (28) simply disappeared in #115. Votes for Craftsmen in #114 was not counted. etc. (I count ≥ 4 errors.)

Assuming #113 is correct, use the following for further voting:

Craftsmen (16)
Merchant Confederation (28)
Naval Infrastructure (5)
Professional Army (33)
Retinues (6)
Serfdom (36)

 

[hhhhhh]

Craftsmen (17)
Merchant Confederation (25)
Naval Infrastructure (5)
Professional Army (33)
Retinues (6)
Serfdom (36)

Craftsmen (17) (16+1) Some people upvote Naval Infrastructure for that it boosts shipyard which in a renaissance building and takes time to build, but saying Craftsmen isn't that useful in medieval since one doesn't have that many IZ. Well that's true but later you will have many IZ and Craftsmen can be useful.
Merchant Confederation (25) (28-3) Not saying this is bad. But for me it's not top 3. It comes in handy at a time but its life isn't long enough to be top 3.

 

[walkerjks]

Craftsmen (14)
Merchant Confederation (26)
Naval Infrastructure (5)
Professional Army (33)
Retinues (6)
Serfdom (37)

It was interesting to revisit the list of medieval cards and realize in many games, I only really run 3 of them. And one of those (Professional Army) might only be for a few turns to do a mass upgrade. So serfdom is still the best, but my votes go for:

Merchant Confederation (26) (25+1) I am often cash poor as a result of not prioritizing trade routes and this card solves that. I am also often envoy rich (2x 1st envoy combined with a culture focus which leads to lots of mid-game envoys). Merchant confederation is usually in the mix of cars played.

Craftsmen (14) (17-3) I get that my play style is unusual, but I just never build an IZ (except for Babylon for Eurekas or maybe Gaul or Germany or anyone else with a discounted IZ). Since I don't build IZ's, this one is fairly useless to me.