Rep Hit when attacking 'unknown' civ?

[Stapel]

Do you get a Rep Hit when breaking a deal (or attacking during the 20 turn peace) with a civ that is NOT known to any other civ?

IMHO there shouldn't be.

 

[Renata]

Not if you kill them off before they meet anyone else. But if you let them live long enough to make contact, everyone will find out how evil you are.

Renata

 

[Globetrotter]

Interesting question.
Can't wait to see the answers.

 

[Stapel]

Originally posted by Renata
Not if you kill them off before they meet anyone else. But if you let them live long enough to make contact, everyone will find out how evil you are.

Renata

Renata, do you have proof? I know this sounds a bit louzy, but there are good arguments, though not convincing, of the opposit:

The advisor will tell the human that the AI is bad, when an AI did something wrong to another AI, while the human could not possibly know.

 

[Padma]

Renata is right: if no one else knows them, and you kill them off before they meet anyone else, then no one else knows of your perfidy. However, if they meet anyone else before they are dead, then you will be known forever as "The Evil One".

We had this happen in a SG I was in a while back. One player sneak-attacked the Babs, and we wiped them out. But the Zulu, who shared our continent, knew about this. So we were forced to wipe out the Zulu before any contact was made with the other civs across the ocean. Once we met the other civs, our reputation was spotless - who was left to rat us out?

 

[Stapel]

Thanks Padma and Renata! I am convinced.

The question is up right now in SG K8.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

I will create a test map for this

 

[Chieftess]

Originally posted by Padma
Renata is right: if no one else knows them, and you kill them off before they meet anyone else, then no one else knows of your perfidy. However, if they meet anyone else before they are dead, then you will be known forever as "The Evil One".

We had this happen in a SG I was in a while back. One player sneak-attacked the Babs, and we wiped them out. But the Zulu, who shared our continent, knew about this. So we were forced to wipe out the Zulu before any contact was made with the other civs across the ocean. Once we met the other civs, our reputation was spotless - who was left to rat us out?

Yes, I remember that SG. Those Zulus tried to escape from under our grasp!

 

[Gainy]

apart from just looking at other civ's opinion of you(furious annoyed and so on) how can you tell that you have suffered a reputation hit?

 

[Padma]

Actually, attitude and reputation do NOT go hand in hand. You may have a perfect rep, and have everyone furious with you, or, conversly, have the rep of a blackguard, but everyone is polite or even gracious.


You can identify a reputation hit by the way the AI trades with you. If you can only get straight-cash deals, and never one in which you pay per-turn money, you can be guaranteed your reputation is down the tubes. And since trade is vital in the game, if you can't afford to trade, you will be left behind.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

1st test: I killed them breaking a peace, then later the others were met and would NOT take 50 Gold per, but take 100 flat for a luxury. The WOULD take 2 lux for their 1.

doing the other test: playing fair.

 

[farting bob]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
I will create a test map for this

only you killer would do that......
i know a friend like you, he will spend days on one thing that he himself has never thought about, just because they have nothing else to do.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

I killed the civ near me without breaking any treaty, and money per turn for lux is OK, even AFTER that civ was known to the others.



Result: The AIs know about you breaking treaties even if they did not know the civ you broke the treaty with

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

added to the FAQ, too.



I think the important point is NOT being the aggressor and NOT breaking any deals, then genocide is OK. If you break a treaty, it will be known....

 

[Ayatollah So]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
I think the important point is NOT being the aggressor and NOT breaking any deals, then genocide is OK. If you break a treaty, it will be known....

Genocide is OK, meaning it's OK to take over the last city of a civ as long as you didn't break a treaty? Or genocide is OK, meaning you can raze their cities with no reputation hit? (Only the latter strikes me as fitting the definition of "genocide" within Civ3.)

 

[tao]

In GOTM17, I broke peace deals with Egypt twice, but since I removed them from the earth before contact was made with the other civs, everybody loved me.

 

[Stapel]

Thank you Killer!

As posted by Padma: you can have a louzy rep AND everybody loving you......

But now comes the following. Now thay we know that mistreating a civ that is and stays unknown causes a rep hit, should we report it as a bug?

IMHO: YES!

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
Result: The AIs know about you breaking treaties even if they did not know the civ you broke the treaty with

Killer, is it possible that you overlooked something in your tests (such as not having 50 gpt income -- or something else)? I spend more time at Apolyton, and over there this technique of wiping civs away before any outside contact has come to be known as the "Arrian Deception" after a poster named Arrian (who was probably not the first to employ it, but often extolled its virtues -- helping it gain a wide following). Arrian also posts here at CFC sometimes.

I usually pay very careful attention to my reputation -- I like to be able to enter into per-turn deals in the late game should it be necessary -- and I have employed the Arrian Decpetion on many, many occasions without fail. So long as the destruction of a civ is complete before contact with others, I have never encountered a blackened reputation with respect to the "new world." I just recently employed the Arrian Deception under PTW 1.14 (but also did it repeatedly with prior PTW versions and vanilla versions -- haven't done it under PTW 1.21 just because I haven't had much play time lately).

 

[TheNiceOne]

I agree with Catt, as it is my experience as well, that whatever I do to a civ is between me and it as long as noone else gets contact with that civ.

Killer, in your first test, are you absolutely sure that the civ was totally eliminated (and didn't respawn) before it had got contact with any of the other civs?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Catt, TNO: I made sure I had the money in question (I.e. I kept trying lower amounts, too, I never got anything but the flat no).

I do think the rep hit is small, after all the Ai was willing to trust me on lux for lux.

I *think* the hit is less than if they know the other civ, whether or not they have deals going. I suspect the strong hits are due to ROPs that you end.

On reporting: if you look at any civ that killed off another, they tend to have hero tales. So the others will learn once you meet them