Republic and Trade

[chocmushroom]

Ok, it may seem like a strange question, but WHY do we get negative mods for Not being something. It's very strange that in a world where there are so many different religions and races, that all people would want the same type of govenment.
Why would my demon worshipping followers be suffering just as i'm not a republic.
Now, I think that in a diverse world, which FFH is (& a great one at that) you may have negative effects for govenment traits, but these should not be so powerfull that if you don't change you can't opperate.
Now, if when you change to republic, it could be that all other civ's without repulic get , or you could get for having republic. It's like slavery, if you believe in slavery, then why do you wish a republic and suffer so much from not having it. The same argument goes with trade.
So, what i'm saying is, it's OK to suffer negative effects from not having or being something, but these should not be communative.

Let's take Orcs. Maybe Orcs are so used to their warlord type culture, with the strongest allways leading, taking what you have as they want it, destroying cities and the like, why do they suffer so much when they Don't have republic. Why would they also want foreign trade so much. They think that if they want something so bad, they will go and take it, not lobby and complain that they can't trade for it. Yes they will trade when they can, if it's to much effort or they don't have the skills, but why suffer twice for not having something?

So, what I want, is a re-balancing of some traits and not suffer so much from not having something, no more when religious fanatical Demon worshippers say they want the vote, as it does not seem to fit well with a true fantasy setting.

 

[marioflag]

Yes I totally agree.With different races, demons, angels and so on it makes a little sense to have republic which give unhappiness to demons.Anyway the mod is under construction there is time to change something in the mod which isn't flavourful like it (while i think that with all these civs in the mod very well diferentiated it would be a huge job for kael and others FfH2 modders)

 

[BCalchet]

The republic-running civilizations bombard the poor religious fanatical demon worshippers with propaganda fliers, causing great unhappiness.

 

[chocmushroom]

The republic-running civilizations bombard the poor religious fanatical demon worshippers with propaganda fliers, causing great unhappiness.

True, they may do that, but consider what happens next, you either believe the things written on the bit of paper, or the fire-breathing 8foot demon walking around

 

[marioflag]

The republic-running civilizations bombard the poor religious fanatical demon worshippers with propaganda fliers, causing great unhappiness.

LOL.
Funny but hard to believe

 

[Endovior]

It's not that you get unhappiness just becuase you aren't a Republic... you get unhappines because other people are. One of the advantages of Republic is that it causes Unhappiness in all civs that aren't Republics... and the more Republics there are, the greater unhappiness to those who aren't.

 

[Gamestation]

If the faces are really so bothersome and you are using Veil or OO, just sacrifice those people. Less people in a city equals less unhappiness from the others being republic. That is how you exert your force on your people.

I think it also makes sense that your people would be getting mad because the more people you have getting together in a city, the higher the probability that someone in the crowd is going to realize that there is a better way to live and cause trouble in your cities. That is when the whip comes out and gets rid of that person and his/her followers.

 

[Nero's fire]

Unhappyness should only come about if you have trade routes with a republic civilization with republic. This way you can make your civ xenophobic and the little peons won't hear about other peons getting together for a common vote.

It also doesn't make as much sense for the evil civs as it does for the good ones so perhaps there could be a scaling factor for that.

 

[Endovior]

The from non-Republic is not a matter of simply non-Republic... it's a direct effect of the Republics out there. It says, right in the description of Republic " Penalty for Civs Without Republic". This means that the more Civs adopt Republic, the greater penalty for those that don't. It's another form of cultural warfare.

The way to stop it? Destroy all Republics. It's probably population-based, so hit the biggest cities first. And if you can't beat them, join them.

 

[marioflag]

I think that he means how republic can ever make some demons unhappy because they don't have it?From a flavourful POV certainly having demons which are unhappy because they don't have republic isn't so good.
Perhaps demons and mercurians shouldn't get unhappy faces when other races adopt it.Same thing for clan of embers they are barbarian why the heck they should be unhappy because others have republic?
A bit more distinction between races about civics would be IMO better for flavour.

 

[thealien_83]

No no. They aren't angry because they don't have it, they are angry because others do. They want to smash those puny freedom-loving little wussbags so bad that their citizens get mad about not being allowed to do it, see?

On a more serious note, it might be good for flavor, but probably bad for game-balance, if certain civ's be exempt from something that affects everyone else. If all the evil civs are immune to penalties for that, what'll you give the good ones to balance it? Or the neutrals, or do they just get shafted for being neutral?

And as someone said, higher populations will likely entail higher odds of someone being a bit "wrong-thinking". The Infernals may very well have citizens that are humans (or do we assume their cities contain thousands on thousands on thousands of daemons only? Matter of perspective I guess, but since it's outside of Hell, I'm leaning towards assuming they enslave mortals as well) and if there are enough of them, over time, a few are going to want things better. Problem? Kill them. Kill the Republic civs. Enforce more martial law. Load up on civics that make your people happy (read: oppressed).

Anyhew. I wouldn't mind if they changed it either, just so long as it's done fairly and not purely for the sake of flavor, if doing so will be unfair in the long run.

Toodles.

 

[chocmushroom]

The from non-Republic is not a matter of simply non-Republic... it's a direct effect of the Republics out there. It says, right in the description of Republic " Penalty for Civs Without Republic". This means that the more Civs adopt Republic, the greater penalty for those that don't. It's another form of cultural warfare.

The way to stop it? Destroy all Republics. It's probably population-based, so hit the biggest cities first. And if you can't beat them, join them.

Fine, fine, I don't mind having a small negative penalty for not having a republic, but I don't want them to be so large that you find the game unplayable due to the amount of you have. One or two seems ok, but not five or six.
I want to play the orcs like orcs, not like humans or elves as they can't opperate like orcs. A flat for not being republic seems ok, but if you want a civ set-up like a fantasty game you can't have Republic as the goal, with no real alternative. If you don't have a republic then you will loose out in other way, and gain in other ways, it's all about balance, the way republic is right now is not balanced.
When I choose between sacrifice the weak or public healers, it's a choice. I have to way-up pros & cons, they both have benifits and drawback with cost and abilities.
Republic does not seem to have this. If you choose it you have pros, if you don't then the pros you get from what other civ you choose are outwayed by the cons inposed buy republic.

 

[Maniac]

You may be right when playing another race, but for the humans you should make a distinction between the elite and the mass. If you don't have Republic, it's the mass that's unhappy, not the high priests of the demon cult.

 

[chocmushroom]

You may be right when playing another race, but for the humans you should make a distinction between the elite and the mass. If you don't have Republic, it's the mass that's unhappy, not the high priests of the demon cult.

Prove it. Ask the people of Bruni who have one of the highest standards of living in the world as a whole. Ask the poor people in Cuba or poor in America which health system they prefer. Ask the more religious countries if they want to fight for a republic. There are still a lot of Kingdoms out there, even in this world which has had republics for over 2000 years. Infact some civilisations which have had votes and representation of all, have been destroyed by others which did not.
Empires are built by strong leaders who did not always have to ask the public what they should do.

 

[Endovior]

Fine, fine, I don't mind having a small negative penalty for not having a republic, but I don't want them to be so large that you find the game unplayable due to the amount of you have. One or two seems ok, but not five or six.
I want to play the orcs like orcs, not like humans or elves as they can't opperate like orcs. A flat for not being republic seems ok, but if you want a civ set-up like a fantasty game you can't have Republic as the goal, with no real alternative. If you don't have a republic then you will loose out in other way, and gain in other ways, it's all about balance, the way republic is right now is not balanced.
When I choose between sacrifice the weak or public healers, it's a choice. I have to way-up pros & cons, they both have benifits and drawback with cost and abilities.
Republic does not seem to have this. If you choose it you have pros, if you don't then the pros you get from what other civ you choose are outwayed by the cons inposed buy republic.

If you're getting five or six , it's probably because you're just about the only non-republic out there. In the world of the free, the despot has his hands full. Of course, the rampant unhappiness stick swings both ways... it also hits Republics at war, for example. The consensus seems to be that the best civic for dealing with mass unhappiness is Aristocracy (Martial Law)... but your results may vary.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I think making real world comparisons to the anger caused by being under dictatorship or anything else besides republic for that matter is somewhat invalid... it's a fantasy world with fantasy races some of which think very differently from the way we do. And not even just culturally... in both the realms of nature and nurture, they're formed to think differently from humans.

 

[Mesix]

I agree that the unhappiness caused by republic is a bit unrealistic for orcs, barbarian, deamons, and the like. Perhaps the mechanic could be worked on in the next build to have happiness/unhappiness modifiers that are more unique to each civ. That would add both flavor and balance to the game. Warlike civs should become unhappy when there is peace instead of war. Uncivilized races should become less happy when civics are implemented that change their barbaric ways (which could be a penalty for gaining some of the bonuses, but at the same time not being affected by not having republic and similar "elite" civics).

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Adopting a republic could be seen as a refutation of the "divine right" of Kings. Maybe the Orcs don't really think that they should now be voting or electing representitives, but rather feel more free to voice their disagreements about their rulers or disobey, etc.

 

[formless blob]

Irregardless of the flavor (although that is of very high priority), I think the mechanics of getting a penalty for not comforming is bad for the game. You have all theese nice options, but you can not select them, because of the penalty if a lot of other civs are running that civic.

 

[Nimbus]

I have always been a little disappointed that in a mod that prides itself on its flexibility and diversity of choices in how you play, has any civic or function that tries to force you into playing a certain way or taking big penalties to the game you are playing, ala Republic. I was even more disappointed when one of the counters for this, the +1 happiness per military unit, was removed from the game.