Requesting following features

[Baldyr]

Have you considered allowing drafting units with any of the ancient civics in the scenario? Because we could use the rebellion units setup for this also - I just realized there is a getConscriptUnit callback in CvGameUtils... So drafting units wouldn't cause any Explorers to appear in a pre-gunpowder era.

Or we could have archery units as the conscript units instead of the default (pre-gunpowder) melee units. On a whole I think drafting would give the scenario a whole new dynamic; the potential for bigger armies - and more wars.

 

[j_mie6]

Imperial Service civic replaces Nationhood and comes with monarchy... It was already there!

did you see my last post?

 

[Baldyr]

in anycase will you be carrying on with this for when I need a new version of the rebels and powers etc for Jamie's Medieval Mod (JMM) and Jamie's Fall of Rome (JFoR)?

Without promising anything - for sure!

But if you're hell-bent on learning Python you will be able to take charge of these follow-up projects yourself. I could just advice and explain how the stuff I've written should be used. Now I also realize I need to keep documenting everything. (Look at the CivPlayer module for instance. Does the documentation strings make any sense to you yet?) So I think I'll give the Rebellion module a work-over once I got the time.

 

[Baldyr]

Imperial Service civic replaces Nationhood and comes with monarchy... It was already there!

Ok, so we probably don't want the default conscript unit types in your mod then. What about using the Rebellion setup of units? Or reverting to a archery lineup of conscripts?

This can actually be an opportunity to simplify the Rebellion module by using the CyCity.getConscriptUnit() from the original Rebels module for determining the unit type.

 

[j_mie6]

I just remember there is a version 2 series for JRM we wil need to deal with that at some point (I better make some flags for those). Quick question: in the version 2 series there is the seleucid empire (which is greece's identical twin) and I would want them to use the Hellenic rebels and the Greek Power... Is it possible to link 1 rebel to 2 civs?


Edit: In fact the parthians (who replace those evil picts) can use a renamed pictish rebels and I think they live in the pict's slot, so only one new power will need to be made


about the conscripts, sure that may work but if we want to include archers which we do... should that be allows for rebellions, and what if the civ doesn't have monarchy how will it work then? can I have a hypothetical senario please?

 

[Baldyr]

Quick question: in the version 2 series there is the seleucid empire (which is greece's identical twin) and I would want them to use the Hellenic rebels and the Greek Power... Is it possible to link 1 rebel to 2 civs?

Well, then we might as well put all the rebels in a data structure from the start:

rebelCivDict = {
eRome: eLatinRebels,
eGreece: eHellenicRebels,
eSeleucids: eHellenicRebels,
...
}

Because then it would be possible to have whatever setup imaginable. But I'm not sure how to read the data backwards - if we need to figure out who is the parent Civ of a rebel... Because there would be two in the case of the Hellenic Rebels. So this would probably require some rewrites - but better to get those in now than later.

 

[j_mie6]

well it's not need for the 1.3 version but for 2.1... did you see the edits for the previous post?

 

[Baldyr]

about the conscripts, sure that may work but if we want to include archers which we do... should that be allows for rebellions, and what if the civ doesn't have monarchy how will it work then? can I have a hypothetical senario please?

The getConscriptUnit callback basically lets you setup the unit types any way you like. So its basically a design issue. The question is: what do you need?

And we don't have to use the scenario specific conscript units for the Rebellion spawns at all - if you don't want to. It just occurred to me that we made the whole rebel unit types setup up because the default conscript units we're what you needed. But perhaps we went about it in a backwards manner?

 

[Baldyr]

well it's not need for the 1.3 version but for 2.1... did you see the edits for the previous post?

Yeah, but I'd like to be able to reuse the Rebellion module as intact as possible for future scenario work. So it sorta makes sense to plan ahead.

 

[j_mie6]

will it still be possible to do the civilized/uncivilized paths? I guess if we use conscripts we will draw all units from techs...

warrior/chariot
archer
spear/axe
archer (it depends on order of teching)
sword
cavalry
advanced archer
advanced spear
advanced archer (once again; order of teching)
advanced sword
advanced cavalry (be VERY afraid! These are very dangerous units if lead by the right person)

of course some of these would appear in different orders as personally I research advanced archery before advanced bronzeworking. but some will always follow each other (spear -> sword)

 

[j_mie6]

wow I'm lucky... I knew there was a reason I wanted 25 civ DLL, in JMM there are 9 playable civs, 6 minor civs and 10 rebel civs = 25 maybee asaf should do 26 just to be safe

I now have to make up 9/15 powers for that mod

 

[Baldyr]

Ok, firstly: This scenario is your design - I only work here.

With that said, I really think that conscription shouldn't include any kind of professional/elite type units. They should rather be of the lower-rate levy/militia/auxiliary type. Cheap units. Cannon fodder. Stop-gap units.

I'm guessing that conscription is really a feature for the Roman player, right? So you might as well add new unit types for conscripts. The basic ones could be Levy and Militia, depending on what Labor civic is currently used. The distinction would be whether or not the conscripts are drawn from the city itself or the countryside. (Slavery could well be the deciding factor here.)

Also, conscripting in a Roman city would result in the formation of Roman type units. Conscription in conquered cities would result in auxiliary units - units native to the city's founder. Like Gallic Swordman units drawn from a Gallic population, Axeman units from a Germanic population and Hoplite units from a Greek population. These would basically always be the same type.

Later in the game drafting units wouldn't be as interesting, as the really powerful units would be available to build by then. But I guess this also makes sense historically?

Another idea would be to add a Conscript unit that is really weak on-build. But it would be upgradeable (with gold) to virtually any unit type. So you basically draft a barely trained pool of recruits, and then you spend money on giving them specialized training and equipment.

 

[TheLadiesOgre]

Ok, firstly: This scenario is your design - I only work here.

With that said, I really think that conscription shouldn't include any kind of professional/elite type units. They should rather be of the lower-rate levy/militia/auxiliary type. Cheap units. Cannon fodder. Stop-gap units.

I'm guessing that conscription is really a feature for the Roman player, right? So you might as well add new unit types for conscripts. The basic ones could be Levy and Militia, depending on what Labor civic is currently used. The distinction would be whether or not the conscripts are drawn from the city itself or the countryside. (Slavery could well be the deciding factor here.)

Also, conscripting in a Roman city would result in the formation of Roman type units. Conscription in conquered cities would result in auxiliary units - units native to the city's founder. Like Gallic Swordman units drawn from a Gallic population, Axeman units from a Germanic population and Hoplite units from a Greek population. These would basically always be the same type.

Later in the game drafting units wouldn't be as interesting, as the really powerful units would be available to build by then. But I guess this also makes sense historically?

Another idea would be to add a Conscript unit that is really weak on-build. But it would be upgradeable (with gold) to virtually any unit type. So you basically draft a barely trained pool of recruits, and then you spend money on giving them specialized training and equipment.

Baldyr's got a point...

Conscripts are simple folk who've been handed a weapon, given some basic training and told that they get the privledge of dying for their country (whether they want to or not)

 

[j_mie6]

concription is available to all civs so I'm not sure... it seems like a good idea that you get militia but the rebels themselves should get powerful units. Another idea would be that conscripted units get a promotion which makes them weaker than standard say... Conscripted - -10% str available to the late game conscripts (eg the ones which would be harder to train in real life...archers, spears and swordsman are not that hard to train so don't get this promotion)

maybee cavalry and Advanced cavalry should not be included but I think all civs should get a chance to involve in drafting

but I still like the idea of auxillaries... Isn't there a rule which states drafting can only happen in cities which have a majority of your culture? well if there is a larger majority of greek culture in a city than roman then roman drafting results in spearmen. maybee different civs should be defined a unit?

rome = praetorian (yes unique unit!)
greece = phalanx
carthage = Punic War Elephants (that is actualy very dangerous...)
egypt = War Chariots
gaul = Gallic Swordsman
germania = Beserker
briton = Woad Warrior
picts = axeman

and if rome is drafting in a roman city normal drafting rules apply? SO, to sum up... if you are drafting in a city without your majority then you gain their unique unit (at a larger pop cost of course) how does that sound?

but the rebels should definatly be strong and not weak little units but more advanced later on... like we previously had in mind

 

[Baldyr]

Don't take into account what the spawning Rebel units will be. Spawning rebels and conscripting your population can be two totally different things. I was just entertaining the idea, but I guess not...

So I still propose that all conscript units are weaker rather than the crack units of that particular empire. I'm not sure if a special (negative) promotion is warranted - nor how exactly that would be granted with some Python code. (It might work however.)

Regarding population points I really feel that its overly extensive to equate one population point to one single unit! (Unless that unit is representing a huge amount of people. Like a special Militia or Levy unit - drawing their strength from numbers rather than training, experience or weaponry.) If anything I would grant several units per population point - or I would simply not take away population points for drafting units. There could be other penalties for doing this, like unhappiness. (Not sure what it would entail implementing changes like these though.)

The final word is yours however, I'm just taking the opportunity to throw my own ideas into the hat before we finalize anything.

Right now it seems like we should focus on the Rebellion module so there is still time for discussion and contemplation regarding the conscription issues. And I'm quite certain at this point that we shouldn't mix these two features as far as the unit types are concerned.

 

[j_mie6]

ok then I'm reading your tutorial at the moment (I have decided for the moment: don't do, READ!) so I'm looking and reading extensivly and I discovered the API link and found a few functions that could be useful for features (I have no ideas though ) and I understand how civ probability works and so... after alot of reading and re-reading... I should be able to start on my little event though where and what it spawns I just don't know yet...

I now also understand why you said ages ago that the 25 I put in as a percent was actually 24% chance... or something like that... you said something that seemed illogical at the time...

 

[Baldyr]

That sounds awesome!

It will all make so much more sense to you very shortly.

But if you wanna be able to work on/with some of the things I've done for your mod then you have yet more to learn... (I basically did these things for my own entertainment and convenience - but also so that you wouldn't have to learn any programming in order to be able to readily tweak and edit the features you designed. I didn't see this coming...)

One thing to consider at this point is also whether or not you wanna use BUG as the basis for this and all your other future mods. Because it makes Python more useful, powerful and available as a scripting language. I barely know any of that stuff myself, yet, but I can already tell that its pretty damn awesome for modding! (BUG uses XML for some of the most complicated things in Python modding, like tapping into the various game events and callbacks that are normally handled by CvEventManager and CvGameUtils. No more adding lines of code into those two...)

 

[Baldyr]

Ok, so I took another look at the getConscriptUnit callback in CvGameUtils and it seems that the only available value is the PlayerType. So we can basically forget about having different unit types conscripted in different cities - because the callback isn't working on a city basis but rather on a player basis.

What we can do, however, is detect what Techs/civics/UUs that player currently has. So we can build from there.

 

[Baldyr]

As for your custom event, try spawning something like a historical person (GP). We can even take it one step further and name it - and add a in-game text message heralding the coming of this great leader. Perhaps someone connected to the Punic Wars? A Great General? Maybe Hannibal himself?

Then we could take it yet one step further and make a Death of Hannibal event of some sort. Or the death of the unit will end some other event - like a reoccurring event spawning free units for the Carthaginians. Or something.

This sort of thing is really what Python scripting with CivIV probably was meant to be used for - not changing the game rules or creating new game features...

 

[j_mie6]

well I think that I will do a small barb event (a small rebelforce has appeared outside of tarrentum and when I know how to do it I can continue with biggere events.

I would like if you still made it simple for me though!