Research MC, lightbulb Combass?

[lilnev]

I used to always research Alphabet, and trade it to fill out my tech tree. Math and IW, probably some of the Poly/Masonry/Sailing level techs. But then I'd hit a wall: Calendar, Construction, Currency, Code of Laws, Monarchy (4C+M). They all cost about the same and take a long time to research, and I want them all now, please. But I have nothing to trade for them, and by the time I self-research one, there's a fairly good chance the AIs will have gotten it too, and I still have nothing to trade. I can't seem to get over this hump until I pop a GS for Philosophy.

So I've been experimenting with other non-Alphabet tech lines, and last night I think I hit on something interesting (immortal, a peaceful start, 3 tech trading partners):

1. The common preliminaries (BW, probably AH, Pottery, Writing).
2. Research Metal Casting and Sailing while running a couple of scientists off a library.
3. Trade MC to one civ for Math+IW. I'll need to replicate this a few times to make sure that this deal is reliably available.
4. Lightbulb Compass with the first GS.
5. Trade Compass to one civ for Alphabet, to another for Calendar, to a third for Monarchy. Trade MC for Currency and Construction, etc.

I don't know just what you'll get in step 5. In my game, I got Alphabet, Monarchy, Currency, and Construction, plus some gold. The point is that the AI doesn't usually go for either Compass or MC early (though I have seen it sling MC off the Oracle). With both of them, you should be able to trade your way through the 4C+M hump. Your second GS can still pop Philosophy, but now you don't have to trade it away to fix your economy. You can hold it as your lead in the Liberalism race, or you can trade for Feudalism, Machinery, starting wars, etc. From a theoretical standpoint, Compass is the earliest GSable tech that has good trade value (Alphabet can be bulbed if you research Math and avoid Fishing. But that's not always possible, and Alphabet doesn't have much trade value anyway). If lightbulbing and trading are one of your greatest strengths as a human, it makes sense to leverage that as soon as possible.

Anyway, I'm going to try playing with this sequence some more. If you try it, too, post here and let me know how it went.

peace,
lilnev

 

[futurehermit]

Brilliant!

I've been having the EXACT same experience.

The downside is you may lose out on the GL. However, the upside is that you get forges down sooner and you can beeline to optics (see my other thread).

I will have to test this out asap. I think you're dead on.

 

[johnny_rico]

Question with step 3.

How can you trade MC for IW and math if you haven't yet researched alphabet? I presume you're waiting for the AI to come to you.

 

[lilnev]

You can trade techs with an AI that has Alphabet. In my game, I only had to wait a few turns. Meanwhile, you can work on Masonry, cheap religious techs (pre-reqs you'll eventually want), or stockpile gold to support later deficit research. The post-patch AI now values Alphabet more highly than it used to. Still, I suppose it counts as a hazard of the method; it might work better on high levels than on lower ones.

peace,
lilnev

 

[johnny_rico]

On monarch, the alphabet monopoly exists for quite a while. Previously, I used to be able to trade it to each civ but now there is usually at least one who will research it on their own. I'm led to believe, the higher in difficulty, the more a priority Alphabet is for the AI.

 

[futurehermit]

The AI delays MC and Compass for quite awhile so, yeah, you can just start on something else (machinery for optics beeline? or, yeah, cheaper techs) in the meantime.

 

[duezeone]

I did this, but on prince =p. It is going well so far except only one of my opponents had alphabet after I researched MC. I tried to wait for others to research alpha but I just ended up going for it myself. Then once I got it I was limited on what people would trade me because they are playa hatin or something, but that will change because I am about to pwn Peter's face with crossbowmen/catapults.

 

[Mutineer]

It is probably the valid alternative of standard pach, with a difference that
1) You give up GL as posible build.
2) You most lickly give up Taoism, which is often one of reason I want to ligthbulb Philosofy.

So, if one take this in account and shape wander buildings/development to compensate, then it is one of valible pach.

 

[Immaculate]

Compass is relatively inexpensive though (compared to philosophy or machinery or optics, etc); you aren't really getting the full value out of your Great Scientist. Just a thought- not a criticism.

Team CFR (i think) did some really brilliant light-bulbing in SGOTM2 and its worth checking out.

 

[thefais]

I usually just research Compass and use my GS for either Philosophy or Machinery (depending if I have the pre-reqs for Philosophy or not).

 

[lilnev]

I've tried this three more times now (immortal, large shuffle).

Game 1 showed one of the hazards, but was also a screw-up on my part: I had four tech-trading partners, but only one of them went for Alphabet promptly. I filled out all the other cheap techs and even started on CoL before the Alphabet monopoly broke. Then a couple of civs had MC, so I couldn't get full trade value for it -- not IW + Math. What I should have done was research IW at least partially (see game 3) to get the trade. Instead I made some other trades, then hit the lightbulb without realizing I hadn't picked up IW. So I 'bulbed Calendar instead, screwing myself.

Game 2 worked well. I again had four trading partners (and met a fifth before it was completely irrelevent). I made the MC <-> IW+Math trade and 'bulbed Compass with one turn to go on Priesthood. The following turn, I traded Compass for Alphabet, Calendar, and Monarchy. Later I traded MC for CoL, and it still hasn't fully spread so I may yet get more use out of it.

Game 3 was one of those difficult start positions that cold climate sometimes gives: a horizontal continent, 40% ice, 40% tundra, 20% usable land. Two neighbors. I moved my settler quite a bit to block off room for two additional cities, but the barbs built a city on one of them before I could backfill it. I spent a couple of millenia fighting off barbs from the frozen wastes before I reclaim my starting spot. But the tech trading worked: for MC+Compass, I got Math, most of IW (with just three of us, MC was slightly devalued, so I had to research about 1/4 of IW to bring its value down enough for the trade), Alphabet, Calendar, Monarchy and 220 gold. It has kept me in the game despite a tough start.

Overall I think this is a useful gambit, and I'm going to keep working with it. I have noticed a couple of issues:
1) The Great Library is essentially lost. Lately, I haven't had much success at it anyway, however (large immortal, someone somewhere is going to get to it quickly).
2) No early Construction. This is the only target tech that I've not yet been able to trade for. That means no catapults, so it's either an early axe war or a lot of patience.
3) IW comes late. If I have Copper, or at least Horse, that's not much of an issue. But in game 2 I didn't, and despite popping Archery from a hut, my power was dangerously low. Mehmed eventually declared on me just on principle.

 

[lilnev]

Game 4, not so good. 3 neighbors, but no one seemed interested in Alphabet (Hannibal in 1 AD, Washington in 300 AD, Frederick not 'til 760 AD). Meanwhile a couple of jungle cities stagnated for want of IW, and I wasn't building cats/elephants for expansion. I eventually got some trade value from Compass, and almost caught up tech-wise with Philosophy and Paper, but I had too little land to be competitive.

Game 5, I lost to a bad hut before I even got to try the strategy. My first worker stepped out of cultural boundaries to pop it before an AI scout wandered by. And it ate him. Then it ate all my tile improvements, while I desparately built additional warriors to avoid losing my capital. Not fun. Reboot.

OK, it's clearly a high-risk strategy. The AI is not as reliable at researching Alphabet as I would like. Perhaps I need to learn the leader personalities better, so I can predict who will go for Alphabet and who won't, before sinking infinite turns into Metal Casting.

peace,
lilnev

 

[johnny_rico]

I would think the strategy would be a little more reliable if multiple AI's shared a religion early. If there are multiple AI's with different religions in contact with one another, chances are they're annoyed, and probably not trading. If you can luck out and it's a buddhist or hindu love fest, then I would think the AIs involved would head for alphabet to enable trading.

Perhaps not, maybe it's as simple as learning which AIs prefer and/or prioritize alphabet highly.

 

[lilnev]

Game 6, excellent. Lots of space (I founded 7 cities!), so early war wasn't necessary. 5 neighbors. Alex hit Alphabet really early (700 BC?), Isabella and Wang around 200 BC. Hannibal and Fred not so fast. Traded for IW, Math, Alphabet, Calendar, Monarchy, CoL, and Construction. Researched CS and Machinery while growing my cities up to their new happiness limits, and went on a mace rampage. Only real problem was that the terrain cried out for cottages rather than specialists (lots of grassland, few food resources), so my second GS was rather late.

For now, I'm going to keep collecting data on how quickly different AIs get Alphabet. My hunch is that it's mainly driven by the leaders' preferences, although there may be other factors (Calendar earlier if has plantation resources, Construction for elephants, CoL if Confucianism not yet founded, etc). I don't know if the valuation that the AI places on Alphabet depends on tech-trading opportunities, or not.

peace,
lilnev

 

[Atlas]

Uh, why give up on the Great Library? Go to Code of Laws (either Alphabet trade or research) after Literature (avoiding Math), run merchant specialists in Caste System and lightbulb Metal Casting, then trade that around to clean up the techs you need + Construction. I don't think you have to either-or this if you use Caste System and are careful about your tech path and tech prerequisites.

 

[Landmonitor]

The only problem with trading away compass is that it burns a lead you may have in the circumnavigation race, which on any map apart from pange is IMO just as important as the liberalism race, if not more (lasting benefits as compared to keeping your head above water or at best pushing one AI out of the "tech club")

 

[lilnev]

Any strategy that relies on getting Alphabet by trade is likely to give up the GL, because I can't get Alphabet until at least two of my neighbors have it (exception for Mansa). Meaning probably some AIs elsewhere will have it as well, and they will have gotten it at various times. By the time I can trade for it, someone has probably had it for several hundred years. And the civs that are likely to get Alphabet early, I think, are also likely to go for Lit early. Maybe it's not impossible, but I think it becomes highly unlikely, and certainly out of my control.

I don't worry much about circumnavigation, and I rarely get it. It's useless for space race and cultural victories. Domination victories start at home. By the time I've conquered my continent, if I still want to make war, I'll make do with regular transports and/or airports. I consider Liberalism much more important.

peace,
lilnev

 

[acidsatyr]

One big drawback is you are giving up GL. And GL > slight downtime around period you described.

edit: ok i c some of you mentioned it already...

 

[Snaaty]

@ linev & acidsatyr:

I have played now some games on warlords but still am lacking the "proper" feeling of the timeline a little.

So from your experience, at what time do the AI&#180;s get alphabet in average and would trade it with you (because I still feel that it&#180;s very/too late)?

When I selfresearch, I stick to this timeline:

Alpha: 1000 BC
CoL: 400 BC
CS: 100 AD
Lib: 600 AD (on deity 450 AD, because I normally can trade for metal casting and optics and lightbulb directly)

edit:
GL is vital I think, because of the GS production, but this has been mentioned (several times ) before

 

[cabert]

I did a similar gambit (but lower level ! prince!) by going straight to construction and currency.
I could trade currency for alpha very easily and backfill IW and such things.
Still, no philo lightbulb (i used oracle for construction).