Research Request(s)

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I think grass here means very long grass, which is not everywhere. In fact, quite a few times I couldn't build the Basketweaver Hut for quite some time, because I had no resource available (before Bark Working) that this hut could work with.

As important as the fire pit was historically, it should give something that you really need. Another option would be to give several boni (like with cooking) only to the fire pit and similar "buildings".

There is a disconnect here somewhere. I remember it occurring. Grass required for basket weaving goods is any grass ie from grassland or plains in game. Very Long Grass is a terrain feature that was intended for large scale construction like thatch. I complained a lot when the change was made to no avail.

Regarding long lists of resources, it would be nice to have a button in the trade screen "hide all the untradeable (red) items". That would save a lot of scrolling time in later eras. Also remove the cultures as tradeables.

Not possible in the Diplomacy as that is part of the exe. Unless we can control the input to it and remove them there. Would need investigation into how the Diplomacy screen is called.

So should ash be assumed to be possessed by any sedentary community? Should it 'obsolete' as a factor in the game at Sedentary Lifestyle for this reason? If it does, then wherever it is being applied in the game for adjustment should perhaps also then have the assumption of existence be applied as well I think. So is this a new 'kind' of obsoletion? Assumed possession? It's not that it's not useful anymore or banned - just considered always present. From there, we would not continue to attempt to find ways to make it useful in the game. Thus the Lye buildings that come into play in the Ancient era would no longer be modified by Ash.

It seems there would be no benefit to amass ash. Collecting more and more of it isn't really the point right?

I like this idea as it would work well with some of the other resources we have now as far as game play goes. It basically removes the need for some buildings in later starts for example.

However the current design has lots of buildings that really should only produce a bonus also producing , , or just so that the AI will value them enough to build them. Are we looking to change these buildings? Personally I think it would be a good idea to get rid of these artificial ways of making the AI competitive if possible.

We started talking about grass and bones and the question in my mind is if they are ever something you might not be able to have access to. I suppose if you are in some regions you might have trouble with one or the other. And as always we're talking the higher quality variety of these things, grass for basketry and animal consumption (without defining alfalfa which I know is purposefully farmed in huge amounts for livestock, which could count as 'grass'.)

I still say it would be a Byproduct category and we may end up with more in that category. And yeah, it could be removed but I'm not looking at reasons to remove bonuses as much as ways to include them in the game. If there aren't compelling enough reasons, then we probably should remove the bonus.

Things other than grass can be used as fibers and for making baskets and the like but we don't have them in game and they would only make Culturally important differences. For example if you have Lacquer Wares you should not be inclined to ever make glass and so all glass related techs should not be open to you. eg Optics.

 

[raxo2222]

I screenshoted all Ash producers and consumers in pedia.

Spoiler :

Lye is needed to make Soap.

 

[Noriad2]

As it is very easy to turn wood into ash, I suggest to remove ash and replace it with wood/prime timber for buildings that require ash, like the Lye maker.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

In the case of Ash, do you see where this would apply? Obviously, something good to keep in mind for other bonuses as we go of course.

There may have been plans at the time. Don't forget Mr Azure and Hydro had huge plans for yet more buildings.

If Ash is going to be a considered present resource at Sedentary Lifestyle I can see no need for it to remain in game. I would suggest though that it only be commented out in the bonus infos file with comments to this affect. That way when someone decides that they need to know why it was removed we have the documentation.

I screenshoted all Ash producers and consumers in pedia.

Lye is needed to make Soap.

I don't think this research is quite complete as you also need to look at the resource pedia section to see what techs and buildings are affected by the resource. Mind you I think I only did as much research as you did before I posted the same comment above

As it is very easy to turn wood into ash, I suggest to remove ash and replace it with wood/prime timber for buildings that require ash, like the Lye maker.

A good alternative to the "assumed resource" in this case. It would not require any programming at least.

 

[raxo2222]

I don't think this research is quite complete as you also need to look at the resource pedia section to see what techs and buildings are affected by the resource. Mind you I think I only did as much research as you did before I posted the same comment above

I was on ASH resource page
I mouseovered over all buildings and merged these popups into one screenshot.
With Toffer Pedia you get all information on what resource does, when you are on resource page.
There is no "buildings effected" for ash - that is having additional bonus, if this resource is present.

By the way we have 338 manufactured resources in game as seen in top of pedia page.

 

[JosEPh_II]

There may have been plans at the time. Don't forget Mr Azure and Hydro had huge plans for yet more buildings.

Boy Howdy was that ever True!

If you can play a Non Conquest/Non Domination game there are still all kinds of "Farming" paths you can still take.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I was on ASH resource page
I mouseovered over all buildings and merged these popups into one screenshot.
With Toffer Pedia you get all information on what resource does, when you are on resource page.
There is no "buildings effected" for ash - that is having additional bonus, if this resource is present.

By the way we have 338 manufactured resources in game as seen in top of pedia page.

Dosen't look like it even has an area for "buildings affected by". Nor techs for that matter - not that we have any of those at the moment.

 

[raxo2222]

Dosen't look like it even has an area for "buildings affected by". Nor techs for that matter - not that we have any of those at the moment.

That section isn't displayed, if there are no such buildings/techs.
Do you have Toffers pedia?
This is how resource screens look:

Spoiler :

 

[Septentrion]

A good alternative to the "assumed resource" in this case. It would not require any programming at least.

Ash seems like the quintessential assumed resource. Making fires is something civilization will continue doing after discovering fire. Removing prerequisites isn't hard.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Ash seems like the quintessential assumed resource. Making fires is something civilization will continue doing after discovering fire. Removing prerequisites isn't hard.

But removing a prerequisite and replacing it with a complex set of building AND and OR requirements is not straight forward. Replacing Ash with Wood OR Prime Timber is easier than the prerequisite building option. Having it as an assumed resource would require coding in the dll, since "assumed resources" are more than what we are discussing with ash. It being a trivial case.

 

[Thunderbrd]

There is a disconnect here somewhere. I remember it occurring. Grass required for basket weaving goods is any grass ie from grassland or plains in game. Very Long Grass is a terrain feature that was intended for large scale construction like thatch. I complained a lot when the change was made to no avail.

We're trying to have a more focused discussion so these things can get sorted out and no longer ignored. Glad you brought this up. So you're saying, if I'm following you correctly, that Grass should be a separate resource from Long Grass (or Thatch)?

Not possible in the Diplomacy as that is part of the exe. Unless we can control the input to it and remove them there. Would need investigation into how the Diplomacy screen is called.

If you could set up the python side of a BUG option, I could take care of the DLL end. Would it be sufficient enough to make this a BUG option rather than off a button in the trade screen? The DLL controls whether items are red or not so surely it can control whether they show up at all or not.

I like this idea as it would work well with some of the other resources we have now as far as game play goes. It basically removes the need for some buildings in later starts for example.

So regardless, I'll need to make a tag for bonuses: TechAssumed. At this tech, we 'obsolete the bonus' but wherever it is asked if the bonus is possessed, it always responds true. Not too hard I don't think. This is whether we keep Ash or not as it would be useful on other bonuses.

Things other than grass can be used as fibers and for making baskets and the like but we don't have them in game and they would only make Culturally important differences.

Or as alternatives. You can't make a basket maker's hut without grass right now but if we did include those other 'fibers' that apply somehow, you could have a different basket maker type building that requires that OR you could have an alternative prerequisite for the basket maker's hut. Your point about culturally important differences could be a valuable way to enhance trading in the early game. I'll illuminate how later.

For example if you have Lacquer Wares you should not be inclined to ever make glass and so all glass related techs should not be open to you. eg Optics.

That doesn't really make full sense, only partial imo. You might be able to get around needing glass longer but that doesn't mean you wouldn't eventually learn to make glass as it is another good that grants different benefits that don't completely overlap with Lacquered Wares. As you even point out. Perhaps we should add a means to make the ownership of a bonus (probably in the capital) influence the cost of a tech so that you could reflect this effect in that way. Lacquer Wares could be a lucrative thing to get but makes the Glassblowing tech harder to research?

I screenshoted all Ash producers and consumers in pedia.

The image isn't working for me for some reason.

As it is very easy to turn wood into ash, I suggest to remove ash and replace it with wood/prime timber for buildings that require ash, like the Lye maker.

There are other things that burn and leave ash behind. Perhaps what we need is a 'Fire Source' resource, or as an automatic building so as to track by local and not national level, instead, for the simplicity of prerequisites.

If Ash is going to be a considered present resource at Sedentary Lifestyle I can see no need for it to remain in game. I would suggest though that it only be commented out in the bonus infos file with comments to this affect. That way when someone decides that they need to know why it was removed we have the documentation.

Good idea. And if we ever found reason to re-introduce it we could quickly do so.

Whisperr brought up a good point about a pro to remove resources though... our limited space for resource icons could be conserved that way.

It sounds like we are agreed to remove ash but let's talk more about whether we still need to have a fire source as a resource or wood would suffice or if we could simply us a 'fire source' free building that comes from any of many building types that could then satisfy prerequisite needs.

 

[Septentrion]

But removing a prerequisite and replacing it with a complex set of building AND and OR requirements is not straight forward. Replacing Ash with Wood OR Prime Timber is easier than the prerequisite building option. Having it as an assumed resource would require coding in the dll, since "assumed resources" are more than what we are discussing with ash. It being a trivial case.

I thought an assumed resource was something ubiquitous in the civilization. It really shouldn't have to be simulated within the system. It would make the game less complex by making requirement less stringent.

You seem to be thinking about replacing the Ash resource prerequisites with the several building that used to produce it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

We're trying to have a more focused discussion so these things can get sorted out and no longer ignored. Glad you brought this up. So you're saying, if I'm following you correctly, that Grass should be a separate resource from Long Grass (or Thatch)?

Yes and no, but let us leave that for the discussions on that resource.

If you could set up the python side of a BUG option, I could take care of the DLL end. Would it be sufficient enough to make this a BUG option rather than off a button in the trade screen? The DLL controls whether items are red or not so surely it can control whether they show up at all or not.

We can't change the Diplomacy screen at all. It is all done in the exe. Therefore we would need to make it a BUG option and hope that the dll can control the display.

In my opinion I would not have it as an option at all and hope that the way the dll controls what is displayed allows it to not pass those things at all

The Trade Advisor Screen is another matter entirely.

That doesn't really make full sense, only partial imo. You might be able to get around needing glass longer but that doesn't mean you wouldn't eventually learn to make glass as it is another good that grants different benefits that don't completely overlap with Lacquered Wares. As you even point out. Perhaps we should add a means to make the ownership of a bonus (probably in the capital) influence the cost of a tech so that you could reflect this effect in that way. Lacquer Wares could be a lucrative thing to get but makes the Glassblowing tech harder to research?

Maybe not but it is historically accurate for major empires in world history. I like the idea that having Lacquer Wares makes it harder to do the Glass techs but we would need to make sure that you can get as far as Modern Chemistry with out those techs to accurately simulate reality.

I already have a mod that allows you to adjust the research rate on a tech by resource. It needs a new list tag on the Tech, my current implementation used the event style XML used by Platyping (and others) to make it easy top mod.

There are other things that burn and leave ash behind. Perhaps what we need is a 'Fire Source' resource, or as an automatic building so as to track by local and not national level, instead, for the simplicity of prerequisites.

Which is worse than having a bonus ash because those buildings are checked every turn to see if they need to be turned on/off where as the bonus is only lost or added if a building is added or destroyed.

Whisperr brought up a good point about a pro to remove resources though... our limited space for resource icons could be conserved that way.

Unfortunately not really if we want to be able to reinstate it quickly. I think we are 200-500 off the limit at the moment and I think we can extend that by 1000 or so easily. There is a problem in the city screen but I think it is a code issue.
BTW if anyone wants to provide icons for the resources that reuse other icons they need to be 16x16 pixels and in a format that can be converted to TGA.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I thought an assumed resource was something ubiquitous in the civilization. It really shouldn't have to be simulated within the system. It would make the game less complex by making requirement less stringent.

You seem to be thinking about replacing the Ash resource prerequisites with the several building that used to produce it.

At cross purposes with what an "assumed resource" is I suspect. That plus we are talking about the first era. A resource that is assumed in one era may still be a significant resource in all preceding eras and need to be there.
Trying to find a really good example but will go with "sandals" instead. These could be a luxury item in the Ancient/Classical eras required for the better housing levels once you get get to the Medieval\Renaissance they are no longer luxuries but necessities and are required for middle housing upwards but from the Modern era on it is assumed.

 

[Thunderbrd]

In my opinion I would not have it as an option at all and hope that the way the dll controls what is displayed allows it to not pass those things at all

The downside of this is that you aren't, if you prefer it, being given an indication of what could possibly be made to be tradeable if you improve relations or if you lose your own access to the resource.

I already have a mod that allows you to adjust the research rate on a tech by resource. It needs a new list tag on the Tech, my current implementation used the event style XML used by Platyping (and others) to make it easy top mod.

Ugh. Never all that pretty when python tries to get around the need for a tag in the dll. This is a simple one. I've just added TechResearchModifier to the task list.

Which is worse than having a bonus ash because those buildings are checked every turn to see if they need to be turned on/off where as the bonus is only lost or added if a building is added or destroyed.

Then let me at least suggest that access to Wood is all that would be necessary - prime timber almost always means you have wood already and you'd not generally be using it for fires anyhow. What we will need, then, is to ensure that wood, as a resource, is made available much earlier. In fact, I would then assume we should have fire buildings like the fire pit require it. Maybe there are other potential prerequisites? What would you burn in a desert without any forests or shorelines?

Unfortunately not really if we want to be able to reinstate it quickly. I think we are 200-500 off the limit at the moment and I think we can extend that by 1000 or so easily. There is a problem in the city screen but I think it is a code issue.

Point is, it gives us a slot we can cannibalize if we get close to needing it. I also don't see anywhere near that many slots in our targa files - can they be so easily added?

 

[Septentrion]

​

Then let me at least suggest that access to Wood is all that would be necessary - prime timber almost always means you have wood already and you'd not generally be using it for fires anyhow. What we will need, then, is to ensure that wood, as a resource, is made available much earlier. In fact, I would then assume we should have fire buildings like the fire pit require it. Maybe there are other potential prerequisites? What would you burn in a desert without any forests or shorelines?

I guess playing on snowball/sandball planets isn't going to be viable in the future?

Last I checked, we still have dogs and cats resources appearing from the aether. I would like to have the dog resource available earlier than Tribalism from the spawning creatures, even if the benefits aren't as immediate.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Last I checked, we still have dogs and cats resources appearing from the aether. I would like to have the dog resource available earlier than Tribalism from the spawning creatures, even if the benefits aren't as immediate.

Yes, I complained that those buildings should only be built by subdued dogs and cats but was vetoed.

The difficulty is in having one that can be built by a subdued animal OR can be built if you have the resource. I don't think we can define it simply, you need two buildings, I think and some complex replacement

A can only be built by animal and replaces B
B can be built only if you have access to the resource
but then you could still see A and build it but would get no benefit if both are the same. Probably not a problem.
​

Another possible option is to use the Myth buildings as the prerequisites for A and allow it to be built by animal or .

​

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Ash

If we are talking about removing Ash from game then we only need change the two Lye to require one of the current ash producing buildings.

If we are talking about having Wood, Prime Timber or Lumber be stand ins for ash then we only need change the bonus requirements on the two buildings.

I have not checked the Factory but there are no problems for the earlier version.

Either solution is fine.
​

Diplomacy/Trade screens

I just realised we are talking about two different things here.

1) goods that the nation wont trade until you have sufficiently good relations with them
2) goods that make no sense to trade at all
​

Indeed you want to be able to switch the first on and off but the second is also needed and does not need to be turned on and off.​

 

[Septentrion]

Yes, I complained that those buildings should only be built by subdued dogs and cats but was vetoed.

The difficulty is in having one that can be built by a subdued animal OR can be built if you have the resource. I don't think we can define it simply, you need two buildings, I think and some complex replacement
A can only be built by animal and replaces B
B can be built only if you have access to the resource
but then you could still see A and build it but would get no benefit if both are the same. Probably not a problem.

Well, cats aren't as necessary as dogs are(because criminals).They don't need to appear from the aether(although cat breeders might be built from the traded cat resource).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_domestic_dog

I'm not sure what tech would be best for 20,000 BCE or 40,000 BCE. Thinking more on this, dogs can be represented without being a resource.

Wild dogs(maybe include the thylacine) may build a building that greatly increases the build speed of dog breeder, and some have doubling of resources on the scale of of thousands of years. Dog units and buildings would still be far in the future. It'll be a nice legacy building, with archeological benefits.
Although the option for dog units need to disappear without obsoleting the building.

 

[Toffer90]

Point is, it gives us a slot we can cannibalize if we get close to needing it. I also don't see anywhere near that many slots in our targa files - can they be so easily added?

Yes, a new row can easily be added.
When I remade the gamefont file I removed a bunch of the slots that was reserved for religion and corporation icons, 552 icon slot indexes were reserved for them and I reduced it to 200, that means there is space for 50 religions and 50 corporations (each take two slots due to the HolyCity/Headquarter icon variation). It should now be possible to add around 350 more icons after the last resource icon in the file.
This is how I made it so that all the resource icons we currently have works, remember how icons were missing and the bonus name was a different font, that was because the icon was in a higher slot index than the maximum index number the exe will accept.