Research Request(s)

[raxo2222]

Having a tech require a building is already available in v37. Currently it is only used in one place for a dead end tech. The building represents Volcanic Ash and the tech allows access to waterproof cement. Which is one of those techs that the Romans had but the West lost until rediscovering it in the age of Colonization (I think).

There are two such techs:
Classical has Waterproof Cement in later part of era, as you mentioned.
Renaissance has Lead Glass close to beginning of era.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There are two such techs:
Classical has Waterproof Cement in later part of era, as you mentioned.
Renaissance has Lead Glass close to beginning of era.

I did both, so I am getting forgetful. Lead Glass is currently in an optional mod that is being obsoleted by something Thunderbrd is going to do, so it will need to be separated from that mod.

 

[Noriad2]

All this talk over volumetric resources worries me. In Civ 5 there were a few volumetric resources, like metal and horses, to limit the number of some types of units . And with the Civ 5 one-unit-per-tile system with its traffic jams later in the game, that's probably a good thing. Also, all the volumetric resources had map-based limits.

The way you talk about volumetric resources you talk about making ALL resources volumetric, including building-produced resources. That would not only massively increase micromanagement, I suspect it would also require that you are allowed to build the same building more than once in the same city.
A volumetric system as discussed here could potentially make C2C much less fun.

 

[tmv]

In Civ 5 there were a few volumetric resources, like metal and horses, to limit the number of some types of units .

In Civ 5 those limits were very low. That would certainly not fit here (I think it didn't really fit Civ 5, but that's another matter). And if I read correctly, it's more like factories giving more resources than workshops, which would be a very good way to get people to build these buildings other than "planned obsolescence" of buildings. After all, it's the (main) reason we transitioned to factories in the real world.

And even volumetric resources won't transform this mod into a Settlers / Serf City-adaptation (not that there is anything wrong with the first few games of that series).

 

[Thunderbrd]

What do you mean by strategic?

In that reference, only that it has a meaningful inclusion in game play. That you may need to sacrifice something else to have it (an interesting decision must be made - thus a strategic choice) or trade for it or at least have it be a part of a collection of elements that must be managed. In this use of the term strategic, I mean that it adds choices to the game.

Good summary. In the UK and European countries in the starting medieval era "Forester" became a profession. Perhaps we need review our forest improvement lines. I can't remember exactly what we have now but I think it is "lumber jack" -> "lumber mill" and then a "forest preserve". Perhaps there should be a "forester" equivalent for the "Lumber mill". It would be economically similar perhaps -1"hammers" and "gold" but would reduce pollution and increase health a bit.

One part of the plan of limiting Goods Producing source buildings by category is to have the city track how many Zones (building slots of a given category type) are available. To construct many building types, Goods Producing buildings especially, you'll have to have an available Zone of that type in the city.

It forms a prerequisite to have an available zone. Plots in your active city radius (not necessarily worked but claimed at least) will add a Zone type to the city depending on what kind of improvement is there. Thus, Wood Industry would be a type of Zone, as well as category for this and other bonuses, and one that you get an extra Zone of in your city when you have a Lumber Jack/Lumber Mill etc... improvement on a plot within active claimed radius.

Since the buildings that create charcoal would require such a zone, you probably aren't going to want to have every city have one. We'll need other Wood Industry zone building and resources to make this balance act work. But so far, we've identified this category and how to make a bonus that comes from it useful.

BTW I have always wanted to include "Lime" as a resource but you can't model it in BtS as it provides a health bonus through whitewash and plaster but pollution when being manufactured.

Hold that thought for the moment but I'm sure we can find a way to effectively model it through this developing methodology.

All this talk over volumetric resources worries me. In Civ 5 there were a few volumetric resources, like metal and horses, to limit the number of some types of units . And with the Civ 5 one-unit-per-tile system with its traffic jams later in the game, that's probably a good thing. Also, all the volumetric resources had map-based limits.

The way you talk about volumetric resources you talk about making ALL resources volumetric, including building-produced resources. That would not only massively increase micromanagement, I suspect it would also require that you are allowed to build the same building more than once in the same city.
A volumetric system as discussed here could potentially make C2C much less fun.

Part of the discussion intent here is to determine a system that doesn't require volumetric resources but can be optionally able to utilize such a system. It's not easy to create a core that makes such a concept optional but I understand it MUST be optional because it could do exactly as you say and make things a lot less enjoyable. So I'm looking to first perfect the boolean resource system before moving into that project at all. It might be we won't want volumetric at all after such a system has been designed anyhow. Just understand that I'm not looking to make it a required gameplay feature and that it's only in preparation for it's potential that it gets brought up in discussion for now.

There's been some interesting backroom discussions between DH, Toffer, Joe and I on that subject so there's some general ideas floating about as to how to manifest such a volumetric system. And the method employed that you are pointing at are entirely not the method I have in mind at all. But lets not jump the rails to discuss that here yet. I'd rather first figure out how to make the game work awesome without it. Nothing is decided quite yet on how that will manifest and if.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm still not on SVN,

What is the hold up Man!!??? Get with the program!

Seriously though you would be sooo much happier with the Mod if you did.

 

[JosEPh_II]

BTW I have always wanted to include "Lime" as a resource but you can't model it in BtS as it provides a health bonus through whitewash and plaster but pollution when being manufactured.

And is an important fertilizer element for farming today. And a hundred years ago in waste management as well. The outhouse needed to be "limed" on a regular basis for health reasons and as a means to speed up the process of turning "waste" into usable compost. I'm old enough to remember having to use the "outdoor john" when I was a youngster. And also helping grandpa move outhouse to a new location and cover the "hole" left behind with lime and then dirt. And that was just 50+ years ago. We are not that far removed from that time in today's world if at all.

 

[JosEPh_II]

These items imho need to be removed from the mod, dealing with salt and obsoleting it's sources :

       <BuildingInfo>
           <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_SALT_EVAPORATION_PONT</BuildingClass>
           <Type>BUILDING_SALT_EVAPORATION_PONT</Type>
           <ObsoleteTech>TECH_SEISMOLOGY</ObsoleteTech>
       </BuildingInfo>
       <BuildingInfo>
           <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_SALT_EVAPORATION_WORKS</BuildingClass>
           <Type>BUILDING_SALT_EVAPORATION_WORKS</Type>
           <ObsoleteTech>TECH_SEISMOLOGY</ObsoleteTech>
       </BuildingInfo>
       <BuildingInfo>
           <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_SALT_FLAT_QUARRY</BuildingClass>
           <Type>BUILDING_SALT_FLAT_QUARRY</Type>
           <ObsoleteTech>TECH_SEISMOLOGY</ObsoleteTech>
       </BuildingInfo>
       <BuildingInfo>
           <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_SALT_QUARRY</BuildingClass>
           <Type>BUILDING_SALT_QUARRY</Type>
           <ObsoleteTech>TECH_REFRIGERATION</ObsoleteTech>
       </BuildingInfo>

Salt processing will not go obsolete. Nor will the use of salt.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Why do you want to remove those buildings though?

 

[Raven Destroyer]

There's a Civ4 mod that gives more bonuses based on you getting more of that resource, Can't recall exactly what it was seeing I last played it like 5+ years ago,

for a fire source alternative in absence of wood, the people of the Sahara use dried Camel dung, and I believe Blubber is a fire source used in the Arctic though don't quote me on this

 

[Thunderbrd]

for a fire source alternative in absence of wood, the people of the Sahara use dried Camel dung, and I believe Blubber is a fire source used in the Arctic though don't quote me on this

Right... we always find something for fire but fire doesn't always lead to charcoal.

 

[Faustmouse]

IMO with these Salt producing buildings, Salt as a resource loses its significance.
It is just too easy to get! Maybe by increasing the cost of these (or limiting them in other ways) would be an alternative to remove them.

 

[Thunderbrd]

or limiting them in other ways

One part of the plan of limiting Goods Producing source buildings by category is to have the city track how many Zones (building slots of a given category type) are available. To construct many building types, Goods Producing buildings especially, you'll have to have an available Zone of that type in the city.

It forms a prerequisite to have an available zone. Plots in your active city radius (not necessarily worked but claimed at least) will add a Zone type to the city depending on what kind of improvement is there. Thus, Wood Industry would be a type of Zone, as well as category for this and other bonuses, and one that you get an extra Zone of in your city when you have a Lumber Jack/Lumber Mill etc... improvement on a plot within active claimed radius.

Since the buildings that create charcoal would require such a zone, you probably aren't going to want to have every city have one. We'll need other Wood Industry zone building and resources to make this balance act work. But so far, we've identified this category and how to make a bonus that comes from it useful.

This concept would help to make it a possible sacrifice to construct a building that generates salt, thus to do so you might be missing out on something else you'd prefer to produce.

It's important for all of us to consider this proposal very deeply. I"m not hearing much feedback on it yet here.

 

[Faustmouse]

I like it; one of the things that makes the Modern Era +/-1 the most annoying for me is the huge building list...

 

[JosEPh_II]

Why do you want to remove those buildings though?

Remove the Obsoleting Tech not the buildings. Are you following me now?

dealing with salt and obsoleting it's sources

 

[JosEPh_II]

IMO with these Salt producing buildings, Salt as a resource loses its significance.
It is just too easy to get!

Totally disagree Faust.

I like it; one of the things that makes the Modern Era +/-1 the most annoying for me is the huge building list...

This is something you can not help. Nor can you reduce much without some major changes to reducing Techs and Eras.

 

[raxo2222]

I like it; one of the things that makes the Modern Era +/-1 the most annoying for me is the huge building list...

Are you salty?
These (Salt related) buildings are dirt cheap for these eras anyway.

Also "annoyingly many buildings to build" for these eras will be changed later.
That is there are going to be zones/auto upgrades or stuff like this.
Focus on production increasing buildings and buildings, that are required to build other buildings/units first.

Some resources/buildings will be under siege in later eras somewhere in future anyway.


Side note: longer game speeds are only things, that influence building cost, but relationship between build cost and research speed isn't linear when changing game speed.
Exaggeration: Normal: one tech researched - one building built in mean time. Eternity: One tech researched - 4 buildings built in mean time. Game is probably something like this.
I wonder if longer speeds actually suffer less from building tide (suddenly a lot of buildings to build) around Modern era.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Remove the Obsoleting Tech not the buildings. Are you following me now?

I see. Yeah, now I'm understanding. I agree with you but I'm curious why @pepper2000 added obsoleting to these buildings in the first place and what his thinking was behind it. I think there was a discussion around here a while back...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I see. Yeah, now I'm understanding. I agree with you but I'm curious why @pepper2000 added obsoleting to these buildings in the first place and what his thinking was behind it. I think there was a discussion around here a while back...

I don't think it was Pepper2000, I think it was me. Salt is a big problem in C2C and needs to be redone. It should be easy to get but it should not be able to get in every city that can get it.

Until the Middle Ages you should only have one. In the Renaissance two and not until Modern Chemistry should you have more. That is to satisfy your all needs. To trade to others you need more.

Modeling this is what was attempted with the resource and buildings as they are now. It is just not very satisfactory as it is and the need to have and on the buildings just makes it worse.

There are prehistoric Regional Wonders that provided salt for trade. IE a wonder that can only be built once in a Cultural Region. I have a need for these to be implemented btw.

Salt comes from:-

• salt flats
• salt mines
• the sea ( we didn't have the ability to test for coastal on fresh water lakes when the last review of it was done)

 

[Faustmouse]

Totally disagree Faust.

May I ask why? Every coastal city can generate salt with these buildings...

This is something you can not help. Nor can you reduce much without some major changes to reducing Techs and Eras.

Yes you can. TB proposed such a system just a few posts ago...

Also "annoyingly many buildings to build" for these eras will be changed later.
That is there are going to be zones/auto upgrades or stuff like this.
Focus on production increasing buildings and buildings, that are required to build other buildings/units first.

Thank you Sherlock... That's what I was referring to.