Resource/Improvement inconsistency

[raxo2222]

Following resources doesn't have yield from vertical farm/wild life sanctuary:
No vertical farm: papyrus, resin, camel, donkey, horse, llama, cotton, opium, peyote, tobaccco, henna, indigo, coca, incease and rubber.
No wildlife sanctuary: deer, guinea pigs and kangooro.

Silk farm should have advanced silk farm and mushroom gatherer should have some middle step between ancient mushroom gatherer and futuristic vertical farm.
Water animals (clam, crab, fish, lobster, murex, shrimp, whale and pearls could have aquaculture improvement as futuristic version of fishing boats.

Also why natron is getting obsolete?
If resource producers and consumers are all obsolete, then resource is effectively obsoleted.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Man... raxo... you REALLY need to develop out the modding skills and join the team and get these loose ends taken care of! lol Thanks for the report. I agree in most cases that these need addressed at some point.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Natron goes obsolete because there are better and cheaper chemicals you can use from the late Classical era on.

Deer and Kangaroo are still eaten and farmed now. If you want to have a wildlife sanctuary then it needs to be post-transhiman era. Do rabbits get one? They are an introduced pest here so I have a bias there.

Papyrus goes obsolete but its plot improvement does not. Which is a problem.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Deer and Kangaroo are still eaten and farmed now. If you want to have a wildlife sanctuary then it needs to be post-transhiman era.

Regardless, you still have sanctuaries for them... at least for Deer there are. North Idaho's deer wildlife sanctuary is pretty cool to visit. The deer are very plentiful and they let you get pretty close.

Good question about rabbits and guinnea pigs... they'd spawn too fast to need one ever and unless during transhuman we all go vegan for whatever proven health reason to do so or some other reason, there's no reason I'd see for us to stop hunting them. That said, the land might be more useful as something other than food collection anyhow and factory farming of these animals would replace plot raising of them.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Deer we don't, they are also an introduced pest but we have farms and "hunting" farms.

If we all go vegan then all food animals go extinct. Unless they can survive in conditions where crops can't grow. There is not enough room and farmers wont keep animals if they can't sell them.

 

[raxo2222]

Well I sorted them here and there based on improvement upgrade lines.
1. Scavenging Camp -> Nomandic Herd -> Pasture -> Vertical Farm
2. Scavenging Camp -> Hunting Camp -> Hunting Preserve -> Wildlife Sanctuary
3. Plant Gathering Camp -> Plant Picking Camp -> Plantition -> Vertical Farm
4. Plant Gathering Camp -> Plant Picking Camp -> Lumberjack -> Lumbermill -> Tree Farm -> Hybrid Forest
5. Fruit Gathering Camp -> Fruit Picking Camp -> Orchad -> Vertical Farm
6. Fruit Gathering Camp -> Fruit Picking Camp -> Lumberjack -> Lumbermill -> Tree Farm -> Hybrid Forest
7. Seed Camp -> Farm -> Verical Farm

Mushrooms, Grapes and Silk are special snowflakes by having unique improvement lines:
Mushroom Gatherer -> Verical Farm - middle step would be nice like mushroom picker and later some mushroom specialized improvement to be similiar with grape improvement line.
Grape Gathering Camp -> Grape Picking Camp -> Winery -> Vertical Farm - its like fruit improvement line
Silk Farm - advanced silk farm could be nice in later eras.

Heres last valid improvements for map resources that are stuck in past:
Deers, Guinea Pigs and Kangaroo have Hunting Preserve as last valid improvement.
Papyrus, Cotton, Opium, Peyote, Tobacco, Henna, Indigo, Coca, Incease, Rubber - Plantition
Resin - All way to Hybrid Forest or stuck at Plantition
Camel, Donkey, Horse, Llama - Pasture

So this is why I wanted, that either vertical farm or wilkdlife sanctuary was last tier improvement for these resources.

 

[raxo2222]

So what about Wildlife Sanctuary for Deers, Guinea Pigs and Kangooros? Hunting preserve upgrades into wildlife sanctuary.
Papyrus, Cotton, Opium, Peyote, Tobacco, Henna, Indigo, Coca, Incease, Resin (when not going trough lumberjack route) and Rubber use Plantition, so they all should be able to be used with Vertical Farm.
Camel, Donkey, Horse and Llama are Pasture animals, so next upgrade would be Vertical Farm.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Nobody is working on this side of the mod at the moment.

 

[raxo2222]

Nobody is working on this side of the mod at the moment.

Are my three inconsistency reports marked in your bug tracker?
This one, and these two:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/world-national-wonder-icon-incosistency.621502/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/taxonomy-myth-story-stories-incosistency.621500/

These would fall under polishing game.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I've added it again if they weren't before.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

So what about Wildlife Sanctuary for Deers, Guinea Pigs and Kangooros? Hunting preserve upgrades into wildlife sanctuary.
Papyrus, Cotton, Opium, Peyote, Tobacco, Henna, Indigo, Coca, Incease, Resin (when not going trough lumberjack route) and Rubber use Plantition, so they all should be able to be used with Vertical Farm.
Camel, Donkey, Horse and Llama are Pasture animals, so next upgrade would be Vertical Farm.

Papyrus goes obsolete so should not be used by the Vertical Farm. Need to check the others

 

[raxo2222]

Papyrus goes obsolete so should not be used by the Vertical Farm. Need to check the others

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus
It seems like its still used marginally in poorer countries.
I guess it could yield one gold after heavy yield reductions in Medieval eral
This income would come from selling to poor countries and/or as tourist attraction.

And if we are obsoleting both map and manufactured resources, then good luck obsoleting hundreds of resources

 

[raxo2222]

Silk, Mushroom and Grapes have unique upgrade chain.
Mushroom Gatherer -> Vertical Farm - middle step would be nice like mushroom picker and later some mushroom specialized improvement to be similar with grape improvement line.
Silk Farm - advanced silk farm could be nice in later eras.

Deer, Guinea Pigs and Kangaroo have Hunting Preserve as last valid improvement. Wildlife Sanctuary will be final step.
Papyrus, Cotton, Opium, Peyote, Tobacco, Henna, Indigo, Coca, Incense, Rubber - Plantation. Vertical Farm will be final step.
Resin, Hemp - All way to Hybrid Forest or stuck at Plantation. Vertical Farm will be alternative final step.
Camel, Donkey, Horse, Llama - Pasture. Vertical Farm will be final step.

Papyrus will have only 1 Commerce as to represent it as resource with marginal uses.

I'll fix some small mistakes for example Amber can be mined in Early Quarry but not in later Quarry line improvements.
Or parrots having 1 gold less on last improvement type than on previous one.

It appears Vertical Farm adds 15 and 3 by itself....

Can I change <iDiscoverRand>25000</iDiscoverRand> to <iDiscoverRand>1000</iDiscoverRand>?

If it is scaled by game speed, then on 1000th turn around 63% of plots with valid improvements would have discovered resource.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Papyrus will have only 1 Commerce as to represent it as resource with marginal uses.

Don't all resources have a total equal amount of yield given to the plot, both before and after improvement? It would be nice to keep that consistent if we already are at the moment. I might be remembering wrong. Been a few years since I worked on some streamlining here.

What's the motive to enhance the speed of resource discovery? I'm not sure I'm in favor because it would diminish the role of the Great Farmer and other units of a similar nature to come.

Camel, Donkey, Horse, Llama - Pasture. Vertical Farm will be final step.

Perhaps we need a breeding facility. I'm not sure Vertical Farm hits the right tone with these. It infers consumption.

 

[raxo2222]

Don't all resources have a total equal amount of yield given to the plot, both before and after improvement? It would be nice to keep that consistent if we already are at the moment. I might be remembering wrong. Been a few years since I worked on some streamlining here.

Yes, but DH said that papyrus should completely obsolete somewhere before midgame and shouldn't give any yield to plot by itself.
There were few mistakes too like Amber having quarry as valid improvement.

What's the motive to enhance the speed of resource discovery? I'm not sure I'm in favor because it would diminish the role of the Great Farmer and other units of a similar nature to come.

To make it exist.
For now chances are so low, that you will fill all plots with resources by time new resource appears.
Also there is no other way to make non animal/plant resource appear.
1000 tries (1000 turns on Blitz or 1000 plots with valid improvements in single turn) with chance of 1/25000 of resource appearing on given plot means resource has chance of 4% to appear on single plot during entire game or to appear on one of thousand improved plots in single turn without resources and with valid improvement.

Perhaps we need a breeding facility. I'm not sure Vertical Farm hits the right tone with these. It infers consumption.

Well it is to cover any dead ends.
Mushroom would need something in middle, Silk and all sea food resources need futuristic improvement.

Main upgrade lines:
1. Scavenging Camp -> Nomadic Herd -> Pasture -> Vertical Farm
Camel, Cow, Donkey, Horse, Llama, Pig, Poultry, Sheep

2. Scavenging Camp -> Hunting Camp -> Hunting Preserve -> Wildlife Sanctuary
Beavers, Bison, Deer, Elephant, Guinea Pigs, Kangaroo, Mammoth, Parrots, Rabbit, Sea Lion & Seal, Walrus

3. Plant Gathering Camp -> Plant Picking Camp -> Plantation -> Vertical Farm
Coca, Cocoa, Coffee, Cotton, Flax, Hemp, Henna, Incense, Indigo, Kava, Opium, Papyrus, Peyote, Resin, Rubber (No first two steps), Sugar, Tea, Tobacco, Vanilla

4. Plant Gathering Camp -> Plant Picking Camp -> Lumberjack -> Lumbermill -> Tree Farm -> Hybrid Forest
Hemp, Resin

5. Fruit Gathering Camp -> Fruit Picking Camp -> Orchard -> Vertical Farm
Almonds, Apple, Banana, Coconut, Dates, Fig, Guavas, Lemons, Mango, Olives, Papaya, Pistachio, Pomegranate, Prickly Pear, Spices

6. Fruit Gathering Camp -> Fruit Picking Camp -> Lumberjack -> Lumbermill -> Tree Farm -> Hybrid Forest
Apple

7. Seed Camp -> Farm -> Vertical Farm
Barley, Corn, Melons, Potatoes, Pumpkin, Rice, Squash, Wheat

8. Stone Tools Workshop -> Mine -> Shaft Mine -> Modern Mine -> Core Mine
Amber, Bauxite Ore (no first step), Coal (no first step), Copper Ore, Diamond (no first step), Geode (no first step), Gold Ore, Iron Ore (no first step), Lead Ore (no first step), Platinum Ore (no first step), Rubies (no first step), Sapphires (no first step), Silver Ore, Sulphur, Tin Ore (no first step), Titanium Ore (no first two steps), Uranium (no first step)

9. Stone Tools Workshop -> Early Quarry -> Quarry -> Core Mine
Fine Clay, Jade, Marble, Obsidian, Stone, Turquoise

10.Tide Pools (Man Made, WIP) -> Fishing Boat
Clam, Crab, Fish, Lobster, Murex (no first step), Pearls (no first step), Shrimp, Whale

Stone Tools Workshop line resources can also use Mountain Mine if they are placed on mountain except Amber.

Special:
Ancient Relics - Archeological Site
Carbon Dioxide Ice, Helium3 - Colony Extraction Facility [SPACE]
Fossil Beds - Fossil Dig Site
Geothermal Energy - Geothermal Factory
Geothermal Sea Vent, Manganese, Methane Ice - Extraction Facility
Grapes - Grape Gathering Camp -> Grape Picking Camp -> Vinery -> Vertical Farm
Mushrooms - Mushroom Gathering Camp -> Vertical Farm
Natron (no last step), Salt - Salt Gatherer -> Quarry -> Core Mine
Natural Gas - Hydrocarbon Well or Offshore Platform -> Extraction Facility
Oil - Tar Gatherer -> Hydrocarbon Well or Offshore Platform -> Extraction Facility
Prime Timber - Wood Gatherer -> Lumberjack -> Lumbermill -> Treefarm -> Hybrid Forest
Silk - Silk Farm

 

[Faustmouse]

The "Vertical Farm" for Lifestock would be more of a "Meat cultivation facility", one that grows meat in the lab without any actual animals.
One could argue that you don't need to have an animal resource on that plot for that, but the same is true for vertical farms.

 

[raxo2222]

The "Vertical Farm" for Lifestock would be more of a "Meat cultivation facility", one that grows meat in the lab without any actual animals.
One could argue that you don't need to have an animal resource on that plot for that, but the same is true for vertical farms.

It could be interpreted as what main stuff is this specialized Vertical Farm is producing.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yes, but DH said that papyrus should completely obsolete somewhere before midgame and shouldn't give any yield to plot by itself.

Yeah I remember that discussion. I suppose it could be unique in that way.

There were few mistakes too like Amber having quarry as valid improvement.

I saw that - good catches.

Also there is no other wat to make non animal/plant resource appear.

There isn't currently but I would like to see some developments down those lines of thought. I suppose for non-animal/plant resources, we could improve the chances some but you're suggesting a very dramatic shift. I'd suggest something a lot more conservative.

It could be interpreted as what main stuff is this specialized Vertical Farm is producing.

Tends to be how I see it.

 

[raxo2222]

There isn't currently but I would like to see some developments down those lines of thought. I suppose for non-animal/plant resources, we could improve the chances some but you're suggesting a very dramatic shift. I'd suggest something a lot more conservative.

It could be scaled by amount of land plots and amount of turns.
Maps with more land and games with more turns would see lower individual chance (higher DiscoverRand).

Is <iDiscoverRand> of 10000 good enough?

Following things can discover resource
Listing Earth stuff only - there are some Moon resources that an be extracted with improvement - Bauxite/Iron/Titanium/He3/Co2 (gasses only on Moon).
Core Mine, Desert Camp, Farm, Fossil Dig Site, Hybrid Forest, Hydrocarbon Well, Jungle Camp, Lumberjack, Lumbermill, Mine, Modern Mine, Mountain Mine, Quarry, Salt Gatherer, Shaft Mine, Tar Gatherer, Treefarm, Vertical Farm, Wetlands Camp.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It could be scaled by amount of land plots and amount of turns.
Maps with more land and games with more turns would see lower individual chance (higher DiscoverRand).

Is <iDiscoverRand> of 10000 good enough?

I was thinking more like 15000 to 20000. 10000 is still pretty dramatic. Such scaling may be a good assistance in the future. I'd like to also make units capable of determining best resources to mine for (making them emerge but not so selected as the farmer.) and more.