Resource Yield Balance
- Thread starter Kolaris
- Start date
phantomaxl1207
King
Well considering you could have things like +3 of a Yield instead of 3 Happiness, 3 Happiness would probably not be someone's first choice for a monopoly.
PurpleMentat
Videographer
I agree that 3 happiness is the weakest monopoly. If it's my primary resource I usually reroll. Same goes for +3 gold, but I sometimes keep those. Depends on map and civ.
I don't think the mod has done enough to make poor luxuries competitive. Instead of accepting I'm at a disadvantage unless I have a salt heavy start, the list has expanded somewhat. Tea, olives, citrus, cocoa, sugar, salt, jade, crabs, and whales make up my list. Most of those depend on other factors to be acceptable as well. These, in my experience, are the luxuries that are going to either provide me the early yields I need to snowball, the late powerhouse tiles to capitalize on that snowball, or global benefits powerful enough to ignore the first two factors.
I don't think the mod has done enough to make poor luxuries competitive. Instead of accepting I'm at a disadvantage unless I have a salt heavy start, the list has expanded somewhat. Tea, olives, citrus, cocoa, sugar, salt, jade, crabs, and whales make up my list. Most of those depend on other factors to be acceptable as well. These, in my experience, are the luxuries that are going to either provide me the early yields I need to snowball, the late powerhouse tiles to capitalize on that snowball, or global benefits powerful enough to ignore the first two factors.
Some of the +3 happiness monopolies are okay, truffles, cloves and pepper comes to mind, mostly because they all have great tile-yields. Truffles always spawning in forest and benefiting from both the forest-boosts and the camp-boosts (and the camp pantheon) makes it attractive, furs are okay as well for the same reason, but it has worse yields than truffle.
The +3 gold monopolies are clearly the second worst, but I'm nowhere near as sad about them. Getting a heavy cotton start is going to help you early on, as well as pretty much negate all poverty in cities.
I'm not really that picky, but I do re-roll on Tobacco Coffee Incense or perfume start every time, no need to shoot yourself in the foot.
A tier-list would be beneficial for me, for the sake of organization.
List organization:
List organization:
- Resource Name
- Resource rank (out of all luxuries)
- Suggested improvement yield buff (if any)
- Suggested Monopoly buff (if any)
- Suggested tech yield buff (if any)
Again this is all well and nice, but the first problem that needs to be solved is the +3 happiness monopoly and to some lesser degree the +3 gold monopoly, you have to give us some alternatives before we can give you suggestions.
Gold monopoly is fine, IMO. Poverty is the biggest unhappiness factor, and the gold offsets it really well.
Happiness can be changes in two ways:
1: increase it to +5
2: make it scale (i.e. +1 happiness per improved luxury tile)
We can also shift a few of the happiness ones over to other yields and/or add the happiness to the gold monopoly (if it is truly reviled) and simply increase the # of gold/happiness monopolies.
G
I'm just repeating what others have said. Also anyone can tell you that 3 gold is worse than 3 food/production/culture. This does however not mean that the current gold monopoly can't work.
I'm not a believer of alternative 2. sounds like it could get out of hand too quickly.
That was my earlier suggestion
I still think my other solution of adding different amount of happiness to different monopolies would work out even better. For example +3 happiness to the gold monopoly and +0 to the food monopoly.
Anyways I've got to sleep, if you guys finish this by the time I wake up I'll do some checking and commenting. Otherwise I'll write something up myself when I wake up.
Please do finish balancing the monopolies before you start on the specific luxuries and their yields, way better to finish one thing before starting another.
Just for reference, the luxury monopoly bonuses:
+3 Food (Crab, Citrus, Olives)
+3 Production (Tea, Nutmeg)
+3 Science (Amber)
+3 Gold (Coral, Cotton)
+3 Culture (Jade, Pearls, Silver)
+20% Growth (Salt, Sugar)
+10% Production (Copper)
+10% Science (Whales)
+10% Gold (Dyes, Silk)
+10% Culture (Cocoa, Marble)
+25% GA Length (Gems, Gold, Ivory, Lapis Lazuli, Spices)
+3 Happiness (Cloves, Coffee, Fur, Incense, Pepper, Perfume, Tobacco, Truffles, Wine)
+3 Food (Crab, Citrus, Olives)
+3 Production (Tea, Nutmeg)
+3 Science (Amber)
+3 Gold (Coral, Cotton)
+3 Culture (Jade, Pearls, Silver)
+20% Growth (Salt, Sugar)
+10% Production (Copper)
+10% Science (Whales)
+10% Gold (Dyes, Silk)
+10% Culture (Cocoa, Marble)
+25% GA Length (Gems, Gold, Ivory, Lapis Lazuli, Spices)
+3 Happiness (Cloves, Coffee, Fur, Incense, Pepper, Perfume, Tobacco, Truffles, Wine)
phantomaxl1207
King
Reworking Purchasing costs sounds like another thread.
I like this suggestion because it can make Resource Monopolies more versatile while not cutting into the Happiness bonus for Luxuries for Pop.
Awesome work, bro, you're a rock.
So I guess I'll give an alternative on redistributing of things. I'm not in any way fantastic on this kind of things so please do correct historical inaccuracies. I'll start by trying to remove the +3 happiness category later on I'll try to redistribute some happiness back into the monopolies (but that is going to require a tier-list).
- +3 Food (Crab, Citrus, Olives)
- +3 Production (Tea, Nutmeg)
- +3 Science (Amber, Fur(Didn't really want to place everything in a gold category)
- +3 Gold (Coral, Cotton, Perfume(Trade-good?))
- +3 Culture (Jade, Pearls, Silver, Wine(Ritual stuff? Could also go into one of the food categories?))
- +20% Growth (Salt, Sugar, Truffles(Actually edible, and I'm running out of categories)
- +10% Production (Copper, Coffee(Coffee is pretty much tea, but they are too much alike to give them the same monopoly)
- +10% Science (Whales)
- +10% Gold (Dyes, Silk, Tobacco(Trade?)
- +10% Culture (Cocoa, Marble, Incense(Ritual stuff?)
- +25% GA Length (Gems, Gold, Ivory, Lapis Lazuli, Spices)
Still outside the circle: Pepper, Cloves. I literally have no idea where to place these, the Indonesian guaranteed monopolies are quite powerful (but then again it takes up both their UA and their UB so they are probably fine) and I don't know which category to dump them into.
For the second part I would love to present to you a list of monopolies in the order of power (strongest to weakest), this is a really up for debate and I'm mostly acting on instinct so please do correct me.
- +10% Production (The top is really hard for me, but I think with the importance of production in CPP, this one is probably the top)
- +3 Food (I'm probably overly attached to food but I value early growth quite a lot)
- +3 Production (Early production is also powerful
- +3 Culture (Those social policies aren't going to adopt themselves)
- +10% Science (Science is love, science is life)
- +20% Growth (There are a lot of other sources of growth in the game, but growth is still really nice)
- +10% Gold (This effect is powerful, affecting caravans and stuff like that)
- +10% Culture (Not as powerful as one might think, early on culture is so sparse that this wont do much, later on it is quite powerful however)
- +3 Science (Unlike culture there are a lot of flat sources of science, making the percentual monopoly A LOT better than this one)
- +25% GA Length (I'm probably undervaluing this one, but it feels situational at best)
- +3 Gold (There are a lot of sources of gold)
Please note that there isn't a lot of power-difference between the +20% growth and the things below it and as a whole the list is pretty balanced, I mean I would take 10% production over +3 gold every day of the week but +3 gold is still fine.
Anyways if the Idea is to attach happiness to the monopolies (this would probably require a slight adjustment in the current unhappiness situation, we don't really want to flood) starting with higher numbers from the bottom and making lowering them as we go higher is probably a good idea.
phantomaxl1207
King
Here's the Buildings that Boost Resources [UBs in Italics]
Ancients:
Stone Works (+2 Prod) and Tabya (+1 Gold): Salt, Marble, Jade
Market and Bazaar (+1 Gold/ Prod ): Spices, Sugar
Classic:
Ampitheatre and Acropolis (+1 Gold/ Culture): Dyes, Lapis Lazuli
Forge (+1 Prod) and Siege Foundry (+2 Prod): Copper
Colosseum and Arena (+1 Gold/ Culture ): Perfumes and Olives
Temple and Basilica (+1 Faith/ Culture ): Incense, Wine, Amber
Caravansary and Burial Tomb (+1 Gold/ Prod ): Cotton, Furs, Truffles
Medieval:
Garden, Baths and Candi [puts another Indonesian Luxury] (+2 Gold): Cocoa, Citrus
Circus (+3 Gold) but not Ceilidh Hall!: Ivory
Renaissance:
Bank (+2 Gold): Gems, Gold, Silver
Grocer, Tea Pavilion and Coffee House (+1 Gold/ Prod ): Coffee, Tea, Tobacco
Opera House (+1 Gold/ Culture ): Silk
Ancients:
Stone Works (+2 Prod) and Tabya (+1 Gold): Salt, Marble, Jade
Market and Bazaar (+1 Gold/ Prod ): Spices, Sugar
Classic:
Ampitheatre and Acropolis (+1 Gold/ Culture): Dyes, Lapis Lazuli
Forge (+1 Prod) and Siege Foundry (+2 Prod): Copper
Colosseum and Arena (+1 Gold/ Culture ): Perfumes and Olives
Temple and Basilica (+1 Faith/ Culture ): Incense, Wine, Amber
Caravansary and Burial Tomb (+1 Gold/ Prod ): Cotton, Furs, Truffles
Medieval:
Garden, Baths and Candi [puts another Indonesian Luxury] (+2 Gold): Cocoa, Citrus
Circus (+3 Gold) but not Ceilidh Hall!: Ivory
Renaissance:
Bank (+2 Gold): Gems, Gold, Silver
Grocer, Tea Pavilion and Coffee House (+1 Gold/ Prod ): Coffee, Tea, Tobacco
Opera House (+1 Gold/ Culture ): Silk
Give Pepper +3 Science and Cloves +3 Culture. Indonesia wants early Bonuses. They'll get another super tile in Medieval with UB. Indonesian Luxuries give +2 Food and +2 Gold when Improved, right?
Again we should stick to the monopolies first, work on tileyields and buildings when we are done.
It's not really about what they want, it's about what you can give them without creating a balance-situation.
Okay, I've waited a few days now and no one seems interested, so I'll just keep going on solo then. If the goal was to assign between 0 and 3 happiness to all monopolies, and I've rated the monopolies in power from strongest to weakest, one solution would be.
3 Happiness
+3 Gold (There are a lot of sources of gold)
2 Happiness
+10% Culture (Not as powerful as one might think, early on culture is so sparse that this wont do much, later on it is quite powerful however)
+3 Science (Unlike culture there are a lot of flat sources of science, making the percentual monopoly A LOT better than this one)
+25% GA Length (I'm probably undervaluing this one, but it feels situational at best)
1 Happiness
+3 Culture (Those social policies aren't going to adopt themselves)
+10% Science (Science is love, science is life)
+20% Growth (There are a lot of other sources of growth in the game, but growth is still really nice)
+10% Gold (This effect is powerful, affecting caravans and stuff like that)
0 Happiness
+10% Production (The top is really hard for me, but I think with the importance of production in CPP, this one is probably the top)
+3 Food (I'm probably overly attached to food but I value early growth quite a lot)
+3 Production (Early production is also powerful
This is once again just a rough draft, and if you have any objections to it, please go ahead and tell me.
The things I'm personally not sure of are if the +3 culture monopoly should be in the "0 happiness category" instead, +3 culture is fairly strong but it doesn't feel anywhere near as powerful as +3 food or +3 production.
3 Happiness
+3 Gold (There are a lot of sources of gold)
2 Happiness
+10% Culture (Not as powerful as one might think, early on culture is so sparse that this wont do much, later on it is quite powerful however)
+3 Science (Unlike culture there are a lot of flat sources of science, making the percentual monopoly A LOT better than this one)
+25% GA Length (I'm probably undervaluing this one, but it feels situational at best)
1 Happiness
+3 Culture (Those social policies aren't going to adopt themselves)
+10% Science (Science is love, science is life)
+20% Growth (There are a lot of other sources of growth in the game, but growth is still really nice)
+10% Gold (This effect is powerful, affecting caravans and stuff like that)
0 Happiness
+10% Production (The top is really hard for me, but I think with the importance of production in CPP, this one is probably the top)
+3 Food (I'm probably overly attached to food but I value early growth quite a lot)
+3 Production (Early production is also powerful
This is once again just a rough draft, and if you have any objections to it, please go ahead and tell me.
The things I'm personally not sure of are if the +3 culture monopoly should be in the "0 happiness category" instead, +3 culture is fairly strong but it doesn't feel anywhere near as powerful as +3 food or +3 production.
It's the holidays, man - I know I've been traveling and/or busy a lot lately. It's not a matter of interest. In any case, I think adding happiness to just the +3 gold monopoly, and then reshuffling some things, will be enough to bring it up to snuff.
So, it'll end up looking like this:
3 of each, except where strategic resources come into play.
G
Holidays means more time to work on this
That's a lot less fun
. It also misses a perfectly good opportunity to bring the monopolies closer in balance.How about just 3 tiers then?
+2 Happiness, +1 Happiness and +0 Happiness?
Maybe something like this?
+2 Happiness
+3 Science (Amber, Fur, Lapis Lazuli, Iron)
+3 Gold, +2 Happiness (Coral, Cotton, Incense, Coal)
+1 Happiness
+20% Growth (Salt, Sugar, Wine)
+10% Gold (Dyes, Silk, Cloves)
+10% Culture (Cocoa, Marble, Perfume)
+25% GA Length (Gems, Gold, Ivory, Uranium)
+0 Happiness
+3 Food (Crab, Citrus, Olives, Horses)
+3 Production (Tea, Nutmeg, Spices, Aluminum)
+3 Culture (Jade, Pearls, Silver, Oil)
+10% Production (Copper, Coffee, Tobacco)
+10% Science (Whales, Truffles, Pepper)
By the way I'm no historian so this is not backed by historical facts at all, but I dislike some of the resource-shuffling. I think some resources are too similar to others and should for that reason not be in the same monopoly pool.
Gold/Gems - Maybe one of them could be moved to +3 gold or +10% gold? Even +3 culture or +10% culture makes sense I guess.
Lapis Lazuli - Not really sure why this one was moved, feels like it's overlapping with the amber now.
Tobacco/Coffee - Imho I'd rather get rid of the tobacco, doesn't feel very productive to me, but then again I'm probably biased.
Might have missed something, but whatever.
Holidays means more time to work on this
That's a lot less fun
How about just 3 tiers then?
+2 Happiness, +1 Happiness and +0 Happiness?
Maybe something like this?
+2 Happiness
+3 Science (Amber, Fur, Lapis Lazuli, Iron)
+3 Gold, +2 Happiness (Coral, Cotton, Incense, Coal)
+1 Happiness
+20% Growth (Salt, Sugar, Wine)
+10% Gold (Dyes, Silk, Cloves)
+10% Culture (Cocoa, Marble, Perfume)
+25% GA Length (Gems, Gold, Ivory, Uranium)
+0 Happiness
+3 Food (Crab, Citrus, Olives, Horses)
+3 Production (Tea, Nutmeg, Spices, Aluminum)
+3 Culture (Jade, Pearls, Silver, Oil)
+10% Production (Copper, Coffee, Tobacco)
+10% Science (Whales, Truffles, Pepper)
By the way I'm no historian so this is not backed by historical facts at all, but I dislike some of the resource-shuffling. I think some resources are too similar to others and should for that reason not be in the same monopoly pool.
Gold/Gems - Maybe one of them could be moved to +3 gold or +10% gold? Even +3 culture or +10% culture makes sense I guess.
Lapis Lazuli - Not really sure why this one was moved, feels like it's overlapping with the amber now.
Tobacco/Coffee - Imho I'd rather get rid of the tobacco, doesn't feel very productive to me, but then again I'm probably biased.
Might have missed something, but whatever.
Historicity isn't critical in this case. 'Tiers of happiness' becomes complex quite quickly and takes away from the simplicity of the bonus system. Having happiness on all monopolies also might lead to a glut of mid-game happiness, which I don't want. Having it be on just a few monopolies makes more sense and retains the basic structure of the current model.
Truth be told I don't think that the Gold monopoly even needs a buff. I think a lot of the 'eww +3 gold that's weak' comes from a BNW-experience bias. I'd honestly rather just increase the happiness to +4 or +5 and leave it at that.
G
Finarvi
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2015
- Messages
- 531
I like Funak's ideas (mostly what I feel too) and Gazebo's (very transparent and aesthetic). Anyway, I vote for removing this +3 happiness monopolies. They're totally boring and there are too many of them.
I think that he was thinking about monopolies that reduce happiness needs of certain source. And I think that it's not a bad idea, because it would reward going wide for certain monopoly as going wide makes you vournerable to happiness problems.
I think that he was thinking about monopolies that reduce happiness needs of certain source. And I think that it's not a bad idea, because it would reward going wide for certain monopoly as going wide makes you vournerable to happiness problems.
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