Resourceless UU strategic advantage?

[Martin79]

How important is the strategic advantage to have a unique unit who doesn’t need the usual resources (Holkan, Camel Archer, etc)?

I understand that you can start to build your UU faster, as you don’t need to connect your city to a specific resource. And obviously you can build your UU even if you don’t have the precious copper, iron or horses. But have you ever win a game without those resources anyways?

 

[madscientist]

How important is the strategic advantage to have a unique unit who doesn’t need the usual resources (Holkan, Camel Archer, etc)?

I understand that you can start to build your UU faster, as you don’t need to connect your city to a specific resource. And obviously you can build your UU even if you don’t have the precious copper, iron or horses. But have you ever win a game without those resources anyways?

Yes, I played the RPC HOLY SAL game and never got horses. The camel archers were sufficient for when I needed them.

MONTY's Jag were valuable in another RPC as I could immediately take out close Ragnar even though I had iron. By the time iron was kooked up for axes, Ragnar was a dead snake. It was irrelevent at the time of the Jags whether I had iron.

 

[AmazonQueen]

They are mostly early UUs so they can help you get those resources when somebody else gets to them first.

 

[VirusMonster]

Hmm, the resourceless UUs are only useful in the early ages, because your city network is usually not large enough to bring the UU-required resource to the network. Even if you locate the resource in a far corner of the map, if the AI beat you to it, then you need to build the army first, capture the resource and connect it to the rest of your empire to make your UU. Well, the whole point of strategic resources is to have them before the war starts and if you are fighting for the resource, you might be fighting not the smartest war out there.

In later eras, being resourceless loses its importance, because with increased trade routes and increased number of AI trading partners, you will most likely somehow get the resource you need. Also, your workers might connect the resource faster and you might have more techs available that further make connecting the resource easier.

 

[Gooblah]

The Holkan, Dog Soldier, Camel Archer and Jaguar (am I forgetting any? Also, they are all UUs of American Civs) join the pantheon of non-resource-requiring units;
All Gunpowder, Archery, and Siege (for the most part) Units don't need special resources, but all are of utmost importance. Not needing resources lets you build these units the turn you research their given technology. Also, do the Maya have Hunting as a starting tech? If so, I would call them overpowered; they can start building their UU from Turn 1.

 

[oyzar]

Holkans need bw and hunting to be built actually.

 

[AmazonQueen]

The Holkan, Dog Soldier, Camel Archer and Jaguar (am I forgetting any? Also, they are all UUs of American Civs) join the pantheon of non-resource-requiring units;

You're forgetting that Arabs aren't an American civ

 

[Molybdeus]

It depends upon the unit. A resourceless axeman with the same stats as the regular axe would be ridiculously good, as would a resourceless chariot. A resourceless knight is significantly worse because by the time you research guilds you should have both iron and horses.

 

[vicawoo]

Actually, it's not that unlikely to lack horses or iron.

For certain techs, particularly iron working, you don't want to tech it and find you have no iron. Defensively it's quite nice since you don't have to road some out of the way production city to whip some defensive units.

The other big advantage is that it allows you better city placement. You can build more optimal cities, block off better, and avoid early monuments.

There's slight advantages of being able to gift your resources and keep building warriors for hereditary rule.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

I think it's a little situational, since I usually end up with it, the metals at least, regardless if I require it or not. I try to control as many resources as I can, for trade if nothing else. Now, it does come in handy when you have no access to the resources, but it doesn't happen to me all that often, and that can be fun.

I have fond memories of a game as the Dutch where there was only 1-2 sources of Iron and the wars of the continent were conducted mainly with Elephants. It was great!

 

[kniteowl]

I Reckon the Camel Archer is the weakest resourceless UU, because you should be able to get those resources by the time of Guilds most of the time so the resourceless part of that UU is basically useless.

The other resourcelss UU fair better as you get them early therefore you can easily leverage that advantage against your opponent who have to take your time to hook up the resource leaving them with only archers to defend themselves.

I reckon the Camel Archer should either get another minor boost maybe something like Free Drill 1, they are technically Archers (The name being "Camel Archer")

OR

They should be pulled back to the early part of the tech tree and replace Horse archers... It makes more sense since their both mounted archery units, the difference being the animal you ride. Although I don't know how historically accurate that would be allowing to be available earlier in the game.

(This is just from memory as I'm not confident about my history, never studied it) I 'heard' Keshiks comes too early in the game historically and should have been available during the time of Knights, so Historical Accuracy isn't everything.

 

[kazapp]

Holkans need bw and hunting to be built actually.

Yeah, this makes them Holkans kind of lame. Spearmen is mostly a specialist unit that you only need to build to counter mounted units (protect your Axemen from Chariots) and only in limited quantities.

So the only real benefit from this UU is when you
1) lack copper
2) have a neighbour with an early mounted UU (persians, egyptians)

And even then there's nothing special about them - they're about as exciting as regular Spearmen. Sure one or two are handy, but nothing more.

This makes Holkan an unexciting and mediocre UU in my opinion.

Sure you can beeline for BW and rush a backwards Civ, but at strength 4 they're very effectively stopped by Archers, so that only applies against a very close Civ, and only at low difficulty levels at that.

Ignoring FS is not a very glitzy ability, as it is only useful against Archers. Sure, if you don't get any strategic resource, you can survive an AI Archer rush. But on the attack, it's a small consolation when you still die against a defending Archer...

I would have liked it to lose immunity to FS and get Woodsman I or something useful instead.

 

[Bhruic]

I reckon the Camel Archer should either get another minor boost maybe something like Free Drill 1, they are technically Archers (The name being "Camel Archer")

They already get another bonus - a 15% withdrawal chance.

Bh

 

[Iranon]

The Dog Soldier is... strange. It's an inferior city attacker compared to regular Axemen in an era when city defense will consist mostly of archers. It's largely inconsequential for passive defense considering Native American archers are the best in the game.

It's an excellent stack protector though and it means a few pillagers won't prevent you from retaliating... the complete package gives Native America the biggest 'Don't bother rushing me' sign ever to plant in your front yard. For 1 trait, a UU and a UB I'd expect that without taking a hit to my offensive capabilities though.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

The Native Americans seem like an impentrable fortress early on. I'm not a math guy, but I think Dog Warriors can take on Praetorians, can't they? I've never had to deal with the Native Americans early on, yet, and I really don't want too. They seem monstrous and scary.

 

[kniteowl]

They already get another bonus - a 15% withdrawal chance.

Bh

True that But I personally think the secondary bonus seems lacking compared to the other Resourceless UUs.

The Holkan's Immunity to 1st strikes makes them ideal for early rushing against archers... it gives them a small but useful advantage.

The Dog Soldiers has many uses especially in defense.

The Jaguars Free Woodsman 1, gives them access to Woodsman 2 for quick terrain movement and ultimately quicker rushes.

The extra 15% seems meh to me... sure I could leverage it by giving my Camel Archers Flanking 1 & 2 for 45% withdrawal chance but that withdrawal chance is only useful if my unit has loss. Comparing a normal Knight to a Camel archer, the Camel Archer doesn't feel that Unique, but everyone has their own opinion...

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

I have to agree with Kniteowl on the camel archers. It is a pretty lame secondary bonus. I think the Arabs, and a few other civs, could use some help. Every single one of the BTS Civs UUs are pretty stellar, I wouldn't mind a patch that upgrades some of the weaker, older UUs.

 

[ungy]

IMHO the early resourceless units are quite useful as you can delay settling for a resource and claim a better site with your first settler.
The jaguar and camel archer I think are pretty useless--especially the jag as it's worse than the regular unit.

 

[madscientist]

IMHO the early resourceless units are quite useful as you can delay settling for a resource and claim a better site with your first settler.
The jaguar and camel archer I think are pretty useless--especially the jag as it's worse than the regular unit.

An early UU that starts off with 2 free promotions and needs no resource useless???

 

[duende29]

I actually like Holkans. They're not amazing, but:

- They let you skip Archery and delay AH (when you don't have pigs in the BFC, etc.) without sacrificing Barb defense. This makes for a more relaxed placement of your first cities, instead of "place 1st city on copper/horse".
- The immunity to 1st Strike makes them OK rushers: they're cheap, resourceless, negates DrillI and you don't need copper for the rush.

Dog Soldiers... I don't find them particularly useful even for defense because Sitting Bull's Protective archery units seem more solid at the defense.

Camel Archers... I think they should give them a bonus against other Cavalry, like Elephants. Makes more sense than having retreat.

Jags, don't like em, because if I popped Iron I rather have regular Swordsmen.