Revisiting the Combat Promotion

[slobberinbear]

It's boring, the little star emblem. It gives just a tiny 10% strength boost. It is generic and therefore inferior to all other promotions at their respective specialities ... but stacked, it starts to become very interesting, particularly with units that are already tough.

A combat III unit is 30% stronger than an unpromoted unit. This applies universally to both attack and defense. When applied to a unit with a high base strength for its era (for instance, War Elephants), it is devastating. A combat III elephant has a strength of 10.4. While on the attack, the other promotions apply to the defender; not so Combat.

Some level of Combat is, of course, also required to take many of the specialist promotions. Some of the less common but very effective promotions (Amphibious and Blitz, for instance) open up after Combat II and III.

There is always a place for specialist troops -- the city garrison defender, the city raider, and the medic all come to mind. But don't overlook the power of having some of your top-end units get even more powerful, in all situations, by taking Combat. In many instances, the effect of CR is actually fairly watered down after your siege units have pounded the bad guys to mush. Remember that CR promotions reduce defender strengths -- which are already crunched down hard from your siege. In that example, a 10% bonus to your full-health assault units is greater than a 20% strength reduction to a weakened defender with a lower base strength to begin with.*

At the high end, with Combat VI (only available with a GG/warlord), your unit will have a +75% base strength all the time, on offense or defense. Applied to a top-flight melee or mounted unit, this is awesome.

Lastly, don't take multiple specialist promotions (i.e., cover AND shock). Just take more Combat to pair up with your chosen specialty. A combat III unit is more useful overall than a Combat I, Shock, Cover unit -- and the Combat III unit has access to more promotions at the high end.

* I am not arguing that CR sucks. I am simply saying that it may be overrated after siege comes into play and doesn't help at all in field battles and defense. CR is, however, wonderful for pre-construction rushes.

 

[JujuLautre]

A combat III unit is 30% stronger than an unpromoted unit. This applies universally to both attack and defense.

Unfortunately not; combat is much more effective on offense than on defense.

That said, I agree with lots of things you said

 

[Phatkarp]

Please explain.

 

[madscientist]

I agree on the power of the Combat promotions.

There are also other benefits at Combat IV and V which I cannot remember offhand.

Combat I is greta at defense since the popular CR promotions are impotent in defense. Combat I also opens up shock/pinch which IS a powerful defensive promotion.

Another item on Combat promotions, I find them very strong on gunpowder units IF the Ai has not gotten there yet. Pinch/shield/shock are inefficient overall and even if the enemy has muskets, the longbow pop up to defend if you have sheild. Both longbows and muskets get smacked equally with combat II.

 

[r_rolo1]

There is a Achiles heal in your arguement: luck.

It is very rare that a big part of your army will get to the 4 ( or god forbid ,5 )promos due to 2 facts, death and taxes ( read promo money ). Combat is a strong option if you plan to get all those marvellous high promos, but that needs money for the upgrades and some luck for the unit to survive that long ( unless you splash GG XP on it or have a insane number of settled GG ). This means that above combat III ( that you can get with some ease in case of mounted or naval units ), Combat promos units became niche units, made mostly to protect SoDs on field .

And you must concur that cover, shock, CR, Drill...... are all far better at their jobs than combat

 

[madscientist]

There is a Achiles heal in your arguement: luck.

It is very rare that a big part of your army will get to the 4 ( or god forbid ,5 )promos due to 2 facts, death and taxes ( read promo money ). Combat is a strong option if you plan to get all those marvellous high promos, but that needs money for the upgrades and some luck for the unit to survive that long ( unless you splash GG XP on it or have a insane number of settled GG ). This means that above combat III ( that you can get with some ease in case of mounted or naval units ), Combat promos units became niche units, made mostly to protect SoDs on field .

And you must concur that cover, shock, CR, Drill...... are all far better at their jobs than combat

And one counter argument. Charisma counter luck quite a bit! Especially the lovely Boudica who can spam out combat IV units with a barracks/theocracy/vassalage/1 settled GG!

Also Agressive AIs get combat I for free, so getting combat IV and V are not that hard. Of course you need to bloddy them, up a bit, but that's what an aggresiive AI is suppoed to do.

As far as costs, do you not upgrade CRIII maces to rifles or grenaders also???

 

[r_rolo1]

Mad, I was refering to the bulk of the army. you can't upgrade all your army unless you stockpile a lot of dooze, that is not normally easy to do without consequences in the science output.

And not all leaders are cha

Like I said, for me High combat promo is a niche unit, used mainly to protect the other specialists in field of battle. Combined arms

 

[TacNuke]

Mad, I was refering to the bulk of the army. you can't upgrade all your army unless you stockpile a lot of dooze, that is not normally easy to do without consequences in the science output.

And not all leaders are cha

Like I said, for me High combat promo is a niche unit, used mainly to protect the other specialists in field of battle. Combined arms

Yes, but how do you know thats going to be the defender in the stack?

 

[TacNuke]

Mad, I was refering to the bulk of the army. you can't upgrade all your army unless you stockpile a lot of dooze, that is not normally easy to do without consequences in the science output.

And not all leaders are cha

Like I said, for me High combat promo is a niche unit, used mainly to protect the other specialists in field of battle. Combined arms

Sorry double post

 

[r_rolo1]

Higher strength. Not fool proof, but if you have 2-3 high Combat units, the others will see fight far less times.

This is especially true in the infantry age.

 

[Everest]

Because high strength unit with strict combat has the highest strength on the plain battlefield. Sure, you can argue about an attacker wo is promoted against it, like formation pikes versus knights. But there will always be the Shock mace in your stack, so in most cases having a strict combat unit for plain field stack defense is a good idea.

IMHO we're going into civilopedia mode here - arguing advantages and disadvantages of strength versus other promos is too generic. A concrete problem and different approaches to solve it are another case.

 

[JujuLautre]

Please explain.

I assume you are familiar with how combat exactly works

Sword with combat 1 and cover against crossbow; both on flatland, no river, no forest, no city, no specific bonus on any side except the promos and the unit's inherent abilities.

Now, let's take a look at the most important variable determining the odds for the combat: the ratio R = (attacker's modified strength)/(defender's modified strength).

If the combat promo is as effective in defense as it is in offense, the odds should be the same wether the crossbow attacks the sword or the opposite (to be precise, they should be reverse). This also means that the ratio calculated should be opposite one-another. I will show they are not.

Sword attacks crossbow: Rsc = (6*(1+0,1))/(6*(1+0,5-0,25)) = 1,1/1,25
Crossbow attacks sword: Rcs = (6)/(6/(1-(0,1+0,25-0,5))) = 1,15

But 1/Rsc (1,25/1,1) is not equal to Rcs (1,15). The difference is small here, but can be much more important in other circumstances.

It's basically due to the fact that combat promos are applied to the attacker's strength for the attacker, but mixed with other modifiers for the defender, making combat promos multiplicative on offense but additive on defense.

 

[slobberinbear]

IMHO we're going into civilopedia mode here - arguing advantages and disadvantages of strength versus other promos is too generic. A concrete problem and different approaches to solve it are another case.

This is a fair point, up to a point. I was merely raising the issue because, frankly, City Raider gets all the glory on the forums.

A concrete "problem" is not necessary to show the math involved -- that against weakened defenders, combat promotions given to a high-strength unit are equal or superior to CR, and the combat promotions apply to all battles, not just city assaults.

--

Rolo's point seems to be that it's hard to get units above level 3 -- that they're fairly unusual because of attrition, and this is a fair point. But by mid-game, a warmonger could very easily train level 3-4 units right out of the gate with a barracks, theocracy, vassalage, and a settled great general or two.

This, to me, is the main argument in favor of settling your first 2-3 great generals. If you can crank out level 3 units at will, you can field fresh troops with whatever specialization you prefer: medic, formation, shock, CR.

All of which makes me want to play Cyrus, who as Imperialistic / Charismatic could rack up a ton of Great Generals and settle them to get cheaply-promoted units.

 

[catman51325]

I agree on the power of the Combat promotions.

There are also other benefits at Combat IV and V which I cannot remember offhand.

Combat I is greta at defense since the popular CR promotions are impotent in defense. Combat I also opens up shock/pinch which IS a powerful defensive promotion.

Another item on Combat promotions, I find them very strong on gunpowder units IF the Ai has not gotten there yet. Pinch/shield/shock are inefficient overall and even if the enemy has muskets, the longbow pop up to defend if you have sheild. Both longbows and muskets get smacked equally with combat II.

about the other benefits at combat IV and V, IV heals 10% faster in netural land and V heals 10% faster in enemy land

 

[r_rolo1]

@ Mr bear

I never said that it was hard to get Combat III troops ( it is fairly easy to get Combat III phants, for a example ) and that is not what I was refering to when I spoke out of "high Combat units". What I meant with High combat units is combat IV -VI units, and those need to have some real fight in hands to get there unless you have a huge load of GG in hand ( even cha will not push it there ). Those units make a HUGE diference in field ( they are extremely hard to crack and they are pretty strong in open field ), but they are necessarily few.

 

[slobberinbear]

Well I ran some numbers (not my strong suit )and I was wrong with one of my theses -- that as the defender gets weaker, CR becomes less powerful. Even against a weakened (50% health) foe, CR's strength-reducing effects continue to be multiplied against that reduced strength. In other words, a weakened city defender is weakened even more by a CR attacker.

That said, at some point CR is overkill against siege-weakened defenders, and you'd be better off with some all-purpose combat-promoted units. The combat-promoted units become your second best troop at everything, which is very nice to have when your first string specialists are out of action.

My conclusion is that CR troops are great pre-siege and useful post-siege up to a point, and that your entire SOD should not consist of CR troops. A typical classical age stack, therefore, might look like this, assuming level 2 units:

4 catapults, barrage I and accuracy -- wall destroyers
4+ catapults, CR II -- collateral damagers
4 swords, CR II -- first wave assaulters
4 axes or swords, combat II -- second wave assaulters and overall good troops -- these are the guys who defend when your stack is attacked by siege units in the field
2 axes, combat I / shock -- stack defenders and melee attackers
4 spears, combat II -- stack defenders against mounted
2 horse archers, flanking II or combat II -- to deal with defensive catapults
1 chariot, combat I / medic I -- the medic
1+ archers -- garrison units for captured cities​

Staying with the combat promtions can pay off in the long run, especially once you get to March, Amphibious, and/or Blitz ...

 

[Artichoker]

My conclusion is that CR troops are great pre-siege and useful post-siege up to a point, and that your entire SOD should not consist of CR troops. A typical classical age stack, therefore, might look like this, assuming level 2 units:

4 catapults, barrage I and accuracy -- wall destroyers
4+ catapults, CR II -- collateral damagers
4 swords, CR II -- first wave assaulters
4 axes or swords, combat II -- second wave assaulters and overall good troops -- these are the guys who defend when your stack is attacked by siege units in the field
2 axes, combat I / shock -- stack defenders and melee attackers
4 spears, combat II -- stack defenders against mounted
2 horse archers, flanking II or combat II -- to deal with defensive catapults
1 chariot, combat I / medic I -- the medic
1+ archers -- garrison units for captured cities​

Staying with the combat promtions can pay off in the long run, especially once you get to March, Amphibious, and/or Blitz ...

You mean level 3 units, right? The units you listed have two promotions, which requires a level 3 unit to have.

 

[Kevie]

So are you suggesting to go COMBAT (+10%) after seige, and CR before seige. If your not much of a war guy in the beginning, stick to combat?
I always end up doing combat, cover (pinch), and extra strike.

Which then I must ask...

Combat 3? Or Combat 2 with Extra first stike?

 

[Everest]

Combat 3? Or Combat 2 with Extra first stike?

Go strict. Either only combat or only drill.

 

[slobberinbear]

So are you suggesting to go COMBAT (+10%) after seige, and CR before seige. If your not much of a war guy in the beginning, stick to combat?
I always end up doing combat, cover (pinch), and extra strike.

Which then I must ask...

Combat 3? Or Combat 2 with Extra first stike?

Once you have siege units, I suggest having a few CR units as your first-wave attackers. Generally speaking, the more siege you have avaialable, the less important CR is. The balancing point here is a fine line; because catapults are more expensive than swordsmen, for instance, you may decide to go with a few more CR units and suicide fewer catapults to save some hammers. Just remember that suicide cats damage multiple units at once. Personally, I like to use siege to get the enemy down to 50% or less strength, then save any remaining siege weapons for the next assault.

My main point is that combat promotions are good over a wide range of uses, and have a place in any stack.

Because CR is not available to gunpowder units (but remains if you upgrade to gunpowder), it's worth trying to save a few CR III units for future upgrades. If you don't fight much in the early years as you say, then you may never be able to have CR rifles, for instance.

The choice between combat and drill really depends on the opponent. Other threads have detailed this, but the short answer is that drill works best when you have a higher adjusted strength than the opponent. Drill rifles, for instance, would be great when you have tech superiority and are facing muskets or cavalry. Drill is less useful against grenadiers (due to their rifle countering) and any unit immune to first strikes. If, on the other hand, you are mainly fighting other rifles, combat and pinch are probably the way to go.

For some extra bonus fun with this, play a game as Churchill and enjoy some Charismatic Protective Redcoats.