Revolution Instability Too High On Latest Version

[hotrodlincoln]

I am playing my first game on the latest version, and the revolt instability is piling up way too fast for me to do anything about it. I haven't even been able to reach chiefdom, which gives you the first buildings that reduce revolt instability, and already I am having small revolts every turn, with the threat of losing my city, and thus the game. Either some early game anti-revolution buildings need to be added, or early game revolutions need to be toned down.

Edit: After running 0% research, building meager wealth, and bribing my city three times, I have had my city revolt as of 26000 BC. This is a little much.

 

[teakbois]

I am playing my first game on the latest version, and the revolt instability is piling up way too fast for me to do anything about it. I haven't even been able to reach chiefdom, which gives you the first buildings that reduce revolt instability, and already I am having small revolts every turn, with the threat of losing my city, and thus the game. Either some early game anti-revolution buildings need to be added, or early game revolutions need to be toned down.

Edit: After running 0% research, building meager wealth, and bribing my city three times, I have had my city revolt as of 26000 BC. This is a little much.

If you mean v30, your game must have gotten bugged. I can't speak for the SVN though.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@hotrodlincoln

A few questions ...

1. What game difficulty?

2. What game speed?

3. What map size?

4. How many cities do you have?

5. What are your current civics?

6. Did you build any Crime buildings? (ex. Bandits Hideout) or Crime units (ex Thief)?

7. What are your leaderhead traits?

 

[hotrodlincoln]

1. Monarch

2. Marathon

3. GEM Map

4. 1. Like I said, I haven't even reach tribalism yet, so my ability to counteract revolutions is very limited. All I can do is stockpile money and hope I can last long enough until Chiefdom.

5. Anarchism, Obedience, Strongman, Primitive, Communalism, Banditry, Folklore, Survivalism, Garbage Anywhere, No Borders, Oral Tradition, Native Language, No Agriculture

6. I did not.

7. Traits are Scientific, Humanitarian, and Megalomaniac. Megalomaniac does grant a revolt instability penalty, but I've never had the revolutions run out of control on me like this before. I don't usually start having problems with revolutions until well into the late classical/medieval era, and that's with all sorts of things weighing against me, like war weariness, traits that add to the revolt instability, expansion, etc.

 

[Hydromancerx]

1. Ok so should not be difficulty that's the problem.

2. Hmm not sure how balance is on that speed. Might make rev happen faster.

3. Not sure how a map that large effects rev either.

4. Well you could have taken over a Barbarian city or something before tribalism.

5. Well Anarchism, Obedience, Strongman Primitive, Communalism, Banditry, Survival and No Borders all increase rebelliousness. This seems like its where the bulk of the instability is coming from.

6. Good.

7. Yeah Megalomaniac has it. I don't think its that strong for rev.

Do you recall compared to other games you have played which did not have this problem what setting were different?

 

[hotrodlincoln]

These are my standard settings on every game I play. I also usually pick megalomaniac for my first negative trait (I forgot to mention that I use the developing leaders trait).

Usually the only time I have out of control revolution issues like this is during a long, protracted war. Particularly in recently conquered cities.

I did /barely/ manage to get it under control by the time I researched chiefdom, although I am considerably worried about my ability to expand.

 

[MagnusIlluminus]

I have been noticing a similar trend in a game I've been doing. Admittedly, my big problems didn't start until I founded my second city, partly because I put it a ways away from my capital to hold a couple of resources. I've noticed that any unhappiness adds to rev, as does unhealthiness, crime, distance, and current income (or rather, lack thereof). Actually having science at 0% is probably worse than having it higher as with those first civics (at least one of them) added unhappiness for every 35% of taxes. That unhappiness then added yet more rev, and lowered income even more. It's a vicious cycle when lowering science to add to income, at 70% science the income just isn't enough, one lowers it to 65% and for a second the income rises, but then immediately lowers to below what it was at 70% science because of the added unhappiness. On the other hand, for that game I decided to try the Eons game speed, so stuff adds up over time, which is probably hurting me there.

I'm wondering how that will affect the MP games, but expecting that the effects will be adjusted a bit before we really have to worry about it much.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I had trouble with instability, not crushing or devastating but one of the AI's did. Overgrowth seemed to cause some of the issue. But crime was the main thing... there's a crime building that gives a LOT of instability in all cities. If you have a number of cities with that building, you could be in serious trouble quick. Not sure if that's the issue for you though since it looks like you've done all you can to keep crime in check and don't have runaway crime causing traits.

 

[Nimek]

I play on emperor snail GEM and thik that it is ok. I lost one city in revolt before tribalism what is ok because prevent overexpanding in early game.

 

[civfan613]

Happens to me too.
I tried playing a max speed "single civ" game (with barb civ(s) as "opponents") on GEM.
I kept losing my only city in about 15 minutes...
I was playing on Deity with Increasing Difficulty - and it showed diff.lvl as one of BAD influences.
I tried a few strategies, but none helped, until I tried on Settler - and even THEN barely survived a few crisis early on.
The problem disappeared with tech progress.
What I GUESS could be a problem - the initial lack of resource bonuses, though with Minors ON, it would happen even on a crowded map...
Dunno, dunno...

 

[JosEPh_II]

I play on emperor snail GEM and thik that it is ok. I lost one city in revolt before tribalism what is ok because prevent overexpanding in early game.

What is over expanding in the early game anyway? 4-5 cities by Sed Life which starts Ancient era?

Even with out REV you can not seriously over expand until you break the early money crunch. With the Civic Caste being 1 of the 1st Civics to allow you to breathe in the Gold and Commerce dept enough so you can expand.

Is 16 cities on a Huge map over expansion by Classical era? Doesn't that depend upon number of AI in the game?

This whole erroneous presumption the expansion is bad has precipitated that now you do not "need to have" REV to control expansion. The Modders have made it so that Expansionist players and AI are handcuffed until mid Ancient era and then a choke collar replaces the handcuffs.

The only thing imho that REV is good for is an added layer of micromanagement.

JosEPh

 

[stoferb]

I kinda like the rev mod and haven't had problems with it but I'm not sure I've got the latest mod. It is a bit over the top though. The establishing of a new civ should be the result of a revolution that hasn't been kept in check or successfully crushed. It really should be so that representing a region getting a bit more autonomy doesn't necessarily mean it breaks away from you, and ofcourse the capitol itself should never break away from you (or you could just get your leader replaced with an alternative leader). One should never have to worry about loosing one's capital.

One could easily implement buildings that would represent different forms of local autonomy that would satisfy the rebels demand. Such buildings wouldn't be completely without benefit - less maintaince (technically they pay most of their maintaince themselves) - but also penalties like expensive to build military units and much less income and spypoints. And ofcourse both a small boost in national stability and a big boost in local stability.

 

[Snofru1]

The only thing imho that REV is good for is an added layer of micromanagement.

I have to agree here, I usually turn REV off.

In the past I always had it turned on but with all these other layers of making the game more challenging (crime, pollution, traits,...) REV has become more of a nuisance than a fun factor.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Also since the REV code has not been updated by the defunct REV team for over 2 years now it's base has probably become more incompatible with C2C with every passing version C2C team makes. Which just compounds the chances for "problems" to crop up.

Maybe the Team should begin to seriously consider removing REV and maybe develop their own concept of City/Empire Revolts? One that fits C2C's scope?

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Also since the REV code has not been updated by the defunct REV team for over 2 years now it's base has probably become more incompatible with C2C with every passing version C2C team makes. Which just compounds the chances for "problems" to crop up.

Maybe the Team should begin to seriously consider removing REV and maybe develop their own concept of City/Empire Revolts? One that fits C2C's scope?

JosEPh

I would prefer to adapt it into the dll before choosing to remove it entirely... we still could have a lot of dependencies relying on it in our coding (though we could switch it off and invisible by default if it becomes a big enough issue.) I've often thought we could come up with something more effective but then again its not a bad platform to begin tweaking IF it can be fully understood. But its fractured between dll and python method is making it hell to grasp fully. Eventually... eventually... then we can tie in a lot of new effects and processes and rebalances once its properly updated.

But that really is a huge project and may require some serious devotion. Eventually I figure a project on the plate will end up requiring we do it and that's when we'll start working on it.

Side note for multi-players: without Rev on we find we get a LOT less OOS errors!

 

[JosEPh_II]

Koshling has stated that the REV code is..."puzzling" to say the least. That in itself speaks volumes to me about the need for removal or rebuilding. And rebuilding as you pointed out would be quite the task.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

True, but rebuilding would be a lot more preferable to recreating I think.

 

[Koshling]

True, but rebuilding would be a lot more preferable to recreating I think.

Actually, I'd be inclined to do a from-scratch implementation inside the DLL, but using the same tags, properties, and UI that already exists. Just simplifying/re-tuning the semantics and DLL-ising it

 

[Thunderbrd]

Would that differ all that greatly from what I'm suggesting we do? I'd think it'd be easier to translate the python entirely into the dll then we know what we're dealing with and can tweak and change at our leisure, perhaps even as we go when we find less optimal methods being employed.

I know I've got some plans that I'd like to have interact with as triggers for specific sorts of effects, the rev mechanism that we won't be able to apply without that mechanism being a whole lot more organized and visible to us as coders. So either way we go about it, I'm all for it.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Actually, I'd be inclined to do a from-scratch implementation inside the DLL, but using the same tags, properties, and UI that already exists. Just simplifying/re-tuning the semantics and DLL-ising it

So would that mean the same civic and building tags that increase or decrease revolutions would still be used?