So I'm starting to get the hang of noble/prince. I've read in several posts here that a good goal is 5-6 cities by 1000 BC. I've also read the strategy of building a library and running 2 scientists in your capital for a good tech rate. The latter strategy I have started using pretty much in all my games and it seems to keep me ahead or at least even in tech rate through the medieval era or sometimes all the way to liberalism if I can land the Great Library and there aren't a lot of tech fiends around. But I've never managed the first goal. Are these 2 strategies such that you can't do both or I am missing something in my REX strategies? The best I've ever done is 4 cities with a fifth settler being built by 1000 AD. My typical game is 3 cities at 1000BC with 6 somewhere between 1AD and 1000 AD. To get 5-6 cities by 1000 AD do you build nothing but settlers and workers after hitting size 3?
REX vs. tech rate
- Thread starter MrKlew
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klonoklown
Civ Junky
One thing I had to learn moving up from noble to monarch (emperor if I'm feeling cocky) is that your capital isn't the only city that helps REXing. I'm not sure if this is your problem but I found it much more efficient if your 2nd and 3rd cities help produce workers/settlers.
Usually my capital is the main worker/settler pump, but learning to use my empire as a whole to help REX was very important. Another thing that helps if your production or food is low in your worker/settler pump city is to chop. Chopping forests (bronze working required) gives production that helps get the units out quicker. Maybe posting a save and playing along with a few players here could help your strategy. Also whenever you have time check out TMIT and AZ's video's on youtube, I learned a lot from watching those two guys play. And most important have fun!
Edit: Don't forget about the Slavery civic. Bronze working unlocks this and can be used to whip settlers/workers.
P.S. Play as Joao!!! He's expansive (quicker workers) and imperialistic (quicker settlers).
Usually my capital is the main worker/settler pump, but learning to use my empire as a whole to help REX was very important. Another thing that helps if your production or food is low in your worker/settler pump city is to chop. Chopping forests (bronze working required) gives production that helps get the units out quicker. Maybe posting a save and playing along with a few players here could help your strategy. Also whenever you have time check out TMIT and AZ's video's on youtube, I learned a lot from watching those two guys play. And most important have fun!
Edit: Don't forget about the Slavery civic. Bronze working unlocks this and can be used to whip settlers/workers.
P.S. Play as Joao!!! He's expansive (quicker workers) and imperialistic (quicker settlers).
Izuul
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The main reason for running 2 scientists is to generate an early great scientist to build an Academy. The 6bpt that they each provide isn't bad, but it comes at the cost of food, production, and commerce (from the tiles that you would otherwise be working.) Typically, you should stop running the scientists in your cap once you get that first great scientist. If you are doing it in another city though, you may want to continue running them for the GPP.
Do you feel that your expansion trouble is due to not having enough production to build workers and settlers in a timely fashion? Or are you just scared to settle more sites and burden your economy?
It's just not having enough production. I think I can usually manage the economy at least up to 6 cities.
Izuul
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You should probably look into doing more whipping. You can 3-pop whip a settler at city size 6 and get the settler + 30-some overflow hammers in about 3 turns if you do things correctly. As mentioned above, forest chops can also be used to speed up settlers.
You are probably correct that I should whip more, I do whip but rarely more than a 1 or maybe 2 pop whip. Alhtough you talk about 3 pop whipping a size 6 city. I think it would be pretty rare for me to have a size six city to whip much before 1000 BC. Unless I've got a seafood start with fishing I go worker first, so you're still at size 1 for 10-15 turns or so. Then it seems to me like you'd have to build warriors or buildings and have a ton of food to get to size six in a reasonable time. And there is the happy cap, although I suppose if you are 3 pop whipping that doesn't matter. Still I usually do second settler or worker around size 3 or 4 after a couple warriors or workboat. Am I missing something?
You could watch some videos, all explained there 
What you are most likely missing...early granaries turn food into big production, esp. when whipping settlers and just growing back. You also most likely build not needed buildings.
Maybe you also build too many cottages in places where none should be, hard to tell, but considering that food rich cities can get 2 settlers in no longer than 10 turns with slavery (remember those granaries) and you can also help with chopping, you most likely just spend time on too many unimportant thingies.
What you are most likely missing...early granaries turn food into big production, esp. when whipping settlers and just growing back. You also most likely build not needed buildings.
Maybe you also build too many cottages in places where none should be, hard to tell, but considering that food rich cities can get 2 settlers in no longer than 10 turns with slavery (remember those granaries) and you can also help with chopping, you most likely just spend time on too many unimportant thingies.
TheMeInTeam
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Hmm, while there is a tradeoff between expansion (production and tech rate later) and tech rate now, you should be able to both have more cities and tech considerably faster than that at the same time.
My guess is you're not working enough improved special tiles soon enough, or maybe you're mis-prioritizing earlygame technology choices. In the very early goings you really need some combination of mining/BW (production) and pottery/writing (commerce/research) but you ALSO need whatever techs improve your power tiles as a priority, usually before either of the above. If a start is particularly strong in one or the other you might want to cheat the other way first to balance yourself (IE skip BW for a while if you have lots of unforested hills but not much commerce, or skip pottery/writing to get BW and more if you have a commerce resource like gold or gems).
With an above average start I've had 10-12 cities and a tech lead on immortal by 1 AD, and I'm quite far from being the best micro player here (it's actually a weakness in my play, arguably the only serious one). You definitely need to shore up tile improvements + tech priority.
Also with use of hereditary rule or representation + resource trades + good management you should be able to do things like grow the capitol to pop 10+ before the ADs. Whips are something you do (with a granary) to correct an early imbalance of
to 
when the 
cap is an issue or when a city has great special tiles but not a lot of other quality land to work (pretty common in seafood cities but can be true with plains-filled inland with 2 good foods etc also). Advanced players can also use whips to mitigate/optimize worker turns and save a little production via careful worker micro + building a couple fewer, but save that lesson for when you're trying to reach deity.
My guess is you're not working enough improved special tiles soon enough, or maybe you're mis-prioritizing earlygame technology choices. In the very early goings you really need some combination of mining/BW (production) and pottery/writing (commerce/research) but you ALSO need whatever techs improve your power tiles as a priority, usually before either of the above. If a start is particularly strong in one or the other you might want to cheat the other way first to balance yourself (IE skip BW for a while if you have lots of unforested hills but not much commerce, or skip pottery/writing to get BW and more if you have a commerce resource like gold or gems).
With an above average start I've had 10-12 cities and a tech lead on immortal by 1 AD, and I'm quite far from being the best micro player here (it's actually a weakness in my play, arguably the only serious one). You definitely need to shore up tile improvements + tech priority.
Also with use of hereditary rule or representation + resource trades + good management you should be able to do things like grow the capitol to pop 10+ before the ADs. Whips are something you do (with a granary) to correct an early imbalance of
to when the cap is an issue or when a city has great special tiles but not a lot of other quality land to work (pretty common in seafood cities but can be true with plains-filled inland with 2 good foods etc also). Advanced players can also use whips to mitigate/optimize worker turns and save a little production via careful worker micro + building a couple fewer, but save that lesson for when you're trying to reach deity.
Izuul
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I'm really not sure about the 1000 BC date as i typically don't pay that much attention. What i do know is that most expansion is finished by 1 AD.
I commonly go worker > warrior > something in my cap until it hits size 3 and then build a settler. You can then let it grow on up to size 6 (maybe granary first) and whip a settler as long as you have good food available. If your cap is food poor it's probably better to just leave it at happy cap and build workers and settlers the regular way, and maybe infuse it with a few forest chops.
New cities can often whip a granary and then just grow until they can whip a settler. It all depends on the land and how much food is available though.
I commonly go worker > warrior > something in my cap until it hits size 3 and then build a settler. You can then let it grow on up to size 6 (maybe granary first) and whip a settler as long as you have good food available. If your cap is food poor it's probably better to just leave it at happy cap and build workers and settlers the regular way, and maybe infuse it with a few forest chops.
New cities can often whip a granary and then just grow until they can whip a settler. It all depends on the land and how much food is available though.
TheMeInTeam
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Dates/turns are unreliable benchmarks, but I still pointed out the examples because the potential he has in a typical game vs the results difference is rather drastic. In order to do something you have to understand that it's possible, and then how. When you see Rusten rocking the 200 (stable) beakers/turn with 7+ cities and about to win liberalism, and it's not even 200 AD, as a rookie or even moderately experienced player it takes a lot ot even picture how that can possibly be accomplished.
But it isn't possible on every map. Still, the faster pacing goal is a good one. The best benchmarks are from people playing the same start/map, where your timings are actually comparable to something.
But it isn't possible on every map. Still, the faster pacing goal is a good one. The best benchmarks are from people playing the same start/map, where your timings are actually comparable to something.
Thanks for all the input everyone. Lots to think about and consider.
I definitely think that although I often have slavery early I am probably not using it very efficiently.
I don't think working poor tiles is a problem. I'm usually pretty good about that at least in the first 2 or 3 cities. After that I sometime run short on workers, but that is all part of the production issue.
Tech choice is one I hadn't thought about. I usually do get granaries soon after researching pottery, but that is usually not until after worker techs and bronze working. Usually pottery is the last thing I research before writing. Usually my tech path would be whatever I need to improve the food in my BFC first, then mining (assuming I didn't start with it), then BW, then other BFC techs (maybe masonry if stone/marble) and techs for likely second cities. Then would go wheel and pottery then writing.
I definitely think that although I often have slavery early I am probably not using it very efficiently.
I don't think working poor tiles is a problem. I'm usually pretty good about that at least in the first 2 or 3 cities. After that I sometime run short on workers, but that is all part of the production issue.
Tech choice is one I hadn't thought about. I usually do get granaries soon after researching pottery, but that is usually not until after worker techs and bronze working. Usually pottery is the last thing I research before writing. Usually my tech path would be whatever I need to improve the food in my BFC first, then mining (assuming I didn't start with it), then BW, then other BFC techs (maybe masonry if stone/marble) and techs for likely second cities. Then would go wheel and pottery then writing.
TheMeInTeam
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If you don't have a decent cap yet and you are on all of your good tiles, forget building granaries or any other building and build more workers, settlers, and military to defend them/explore.
Granaries are advised for whipping, but not every city is most efficiently used by building a granary then whipping. Often, your very early production is best served by simply building the workers/settlers immediately, especially if you're already near the cap and working good tiles (where it's less efficient to whip).
Sometimes you can/should delay BW, and sometimes pottery or writing should be very early. The choices you make in this time period are some of the most crucial in the game and a lot of players win or lose almost immediately because of them, especially on higher difficulty level attempts.
You do have to be careful though. If your commerce is really miserable you might want to hold off on extra cities and get writing sooner, in an attempt to quickly tech something that lets you capture better land. Sometimes extra cities don't really have decent returns if the resources/land is bad, so you're better served dumping hammers into things that contribute better (sometimes wonders, sometimes military). Whatever you're investing in, ideally it's your option with the greatest returns. Sometimes, you're making that decision with incomplete information, but you should always at least be making it.
cap yet and you are on all of your good tiles, forget building granaries or any other building and build more workers, settlers, and military to defend them/explore.Granaries are advised for whipping, but not every city is most efficiently used by building a granary then whipping. Often, your very early production is best served by simply building the workers/settlers immediately, especially if you're already near the cap and working good tiles (where it's less efficient to whip).
Sometimes you can/should delay BW, and sometimes pottery or writing should be very early. The choices you make in this time period are some of the most crucial in the game and a lot of players win or lose almost immediately because of them, especially on higher difficulty level attempts.
You do have to be careful though. If your commerce is really miserable you might want to hold off on extra cities and get writing sooner, in an attempt to quickly tech something that lets you capture better land. Sometimes extra cities don't really have decent returns if the resources/land is bad, so you're better served dumping hammers into things that contribute better (sometimes wonders, sometimes military). Whatever you're investing in, ideally it's your option with the greatest returns. Sometimes, you're making that decision with incomplete information, but you should always at least be making it.
VoiceOfUnreason
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It might be a useful exercise to sketch out a rough timeline, to get a feel for the kind of pace you need to maintain.
For example, at normal speed, 1000 BC is turn 75. To have the cities settled in time, you'll need the settlers trained a little bit earlier than that.
Worker usually arrives at T15. Figure five worker turns per improvement. So you have two improvements done at turn 25. If you start a settler then, it will take about 10 turns to train. So your second city is going to plant in the 35-40 range. Give that city 10 turns to grow to be useful (T50), and it can maybe spit out two more settlers.
If the capital puts out another settler at T50, then you can maybe squeeze one settler out of city #3.
So the count will often be something like the capital, three settlers trained at the capital, two settlers trained away from the capital. That doesn't leave a lot of time for luxuries.
In particular - (1) your early cities don't have time to wait on border pops (2) your workers tasks need to be tightly managed. (One of the reasons that the whip is so nice for rex is that you don't have many improved tiles anyway).
Put another way, you're likely going to have to drop the expectation that your empire will look "nice" or "developed" -- if you aren't thinking "oh God, I have so much to do," you probably weren't expanding hard enough for the map you've been dealt.
For example, at normal speed, 1000 BC is turn 75. To have the cities settled in time, you'll need the settlers trained a little bit earlier than that.
Worker usually arrives at T15. Figure five worker turns per improvement. So you have two improvements done at turn 25. If you start a settler then, it will take about 10 turns to train. So your second city is going to plant in the 35-40 range. Give that city 10 turns to grow to be useful (T50), and it can maybe spit out two more settlers.
If the capital puts out another settler at T50, then you can maybe squeeze one settler out of city #3.
So the count will often be something like the capital, three settlers trained at the capital, two settlers trained away from the capital. That doesn't leave a lot of time for luxuries.
In particular - (1) your early cities don't have time to wait on border pops (2) your workers tasks need to be tightly managed. (One of the reasons that the whip is so nice for rex is that you don't have many improved tiles anyway).
Put another way, you're likely going to have to drop the expectation that your empire will look "nice" or "developed" -- if you aren't thinking "oh God, I have so much to do," you probably weren't expanding hard enough for the map you've been dealt.
And to reiterate some of my past thoughts on this subject, albeit in different threads........
It's important to balance cities with research. I'd much rather have 5 cities at 1000 BC with an empire that looks something like: Capital @ 6 pop working 2 luxury food sources and 4 cottages; 2nd city working 1 food and 3 other good tiles like hills 1 luxury and 2 4H tiles, and my 3rd city working food and running me some scientist and 2 other random cities getting started.
I'd rather have the above than have 8 cities at 700 or 800 BC > and perhaps 10-11 by 200AD working less optimal tiles which translates into far less research and far greater maintenance. I could turn the above scenario into 7-8 cities by 1AD and Lib rifling in the 600-700 AD range and upgrade 25+ CR2 mace.
So shoot for a nice balance. Takes a while to find your own style but once you get it down you'll forget about things like REX and realize strong play is strong play, regardless how you got there.
It's important to balance cities with research. I'd much rather have 5 cities at 1000 BC with an empire that looks something like: Capital @ 6 pop working 2 luxury food sources and 4 cottages; 2nd city working 1 food and 3 other good tiles like hills 1 luxury and 2 4H tiles, and my 3rd city working food and running me some scientist and 2 other random cities getting started.
I'd rather have the above than have 8 cities at 700 or 800 BC > and perhaps 10-11 by 200AD working less optimal tiles which translates into far less research and far greater maintenance. I could turn the above scenario into 7-8 cities by 1AD and Lib rifling in the 600-700 AD range and upgrade 25+ CR2 mace.
So shoot for a nice balance. Takes a while to find your own style but once you get it down you'll forget about things like REX and realize strong play is strong play, regardless how you got there.
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