RFC Classical World

[srpt]

@ thrash4ever: my current game version cannot open your save. could you make it into a WB save instead?

 

[Swarbs]

Ostrogothic 1st UHV is pretty brutal: palace and royal mausoleum by 520. It can take me around 500 AD to get my palace done, which leaves little time for the national wonder. Note that my strategy is to immediately build the palace in rome upon capture (very shortly after my spawn), and send every slave I can get my hands on in Rome to rush the buildings.

With the new buff to barbarians, the territory UHV is now reasonably difficult and fun. Haven't tried getting to friendly with 3 christian civs without declaring a religion, but it seems possible by allying with the Byzzies and the Franks, but I don't see any other christian civ to ally with...

I do it by razing and enslaving Neapolis and rebuilding it one square to the right. Gives around ten slaves, a better port for access to west and east, and allows an extra cottage in southern Italy, which is useful now workshops are gone. You have a spare settler at the start, so you don't really lose anything by razing. I also flipped some Gadhrauts just outside Ratisbon in Germania, so razed that for a couple more slaves too.

Getting friendly with 3 Christian civs, or any civ in general, usually comes down to adopting their favourite civic as early as possible. That can give a massive boost to diplo, which allows you to open borders, spread Christianity, and ask them to switch religion. Only problem there is that so many late civs (particularly Visigoths and Axum) don't have favourite civics, so you can't use that tactic.

Maybe that's something srpt should look into, as favourite civics are an important diplomatic tool for civs with a goal to have friendly relations with a leader.

 

[CrossRFC]

I do it by razing and enslaving Neapolis and rebuilding it one square to the right. Gives around ten slaves, a better port for access to west and east, and allows an extra cottage in southern Italy, which is useful now workshops are gone. You have a spare settler at the start, so you don't really lose anything by razing. I also flipped some Gadhrauts just outside Ratisbon in Germania, so razed that for a couple more slaves too.

Getting friendly with 3 Christian civs, or any civ in general, usually comes down to adopting their favourite civic as early as possible. That can give a massive boost to diplo, which allows you to open borders, spread Christianity, and ask them to switch religion. Only problem there is that so many late civs (particularly Visigoths and Axum) don't have favourite civics, so you can't use that tactic.

Maybe that's something srpt should look into, as favourite civics are an important diplomatic tool for civs with a goal to have friendly relations with a leader.

Good point on the city razing.

My main issue is not with the difficulty of getting civs to friendly. That's doable. My main gripe is the lack of Christian civs. Often some of the "barbarian successors" don't take a state religion, so I could be left with only 2 christian civs (Byzzies & Franks). This lack tempts me to suggest the inclusion of some kind of all-encompassing "christian heresy" religion for Arianism, Monophysitism, Miaphysitism, Nestorianism etc... This heretic religion could be useful in helping Egypt and the Levant fall into Muslim hands in a more naturalistic fashion than currently (Byzantines had a weaker hold on those regions due to religious controversy).

Interesting cultural aspect of the Lombards, perhaps to inspire UB/UP:

Some of the late Lombard structures of the 9th and 10th centuries have been found to contain elements of style associated with Romanesque architecture and have been so dubbed "first Romanesque". These edifices are considered, along with some similar buildings in southern France and Catalonia, to mark a transitory phase between the Pre-Romanesque and full-fledged Romanesque.

BUG:

Chalukyan "3 cathedral by 700 AD" UHV does not fail in 700 AD if the cathedrals are not built. It seems to fire a turn or two after.

 

[Sorindafabico]

Playing the last regular version (May 30th), some bugs:

- Often I read messages like "Kingdom of Axum has declared war on Kingdom of Axum" or "Tocharian Kingdom is now a vassal of Tocharian Kingdom".

- As you can see in the print screen, workers (and all units but spies) can't reach forest/jungle (turning resources like that charcoal and lumbermills useless).

I don't know if it has been intended or if it's already fixed in last svn revisions.


A suggestion: turn Khalid ibn al-Walid's Tomb buildable only by a great general (and only in a muslim city). Seems reasonable to spend a great general to build the tomb of a...great general.

 

[CrossRFC]

Japan: China not nearly as good a trading partner / fast techer as the UHV would have liked, mostly due to failure of Jin to unite China, and even if they unite China, generally poor tech performance.

I managed to get paper in time, but couldn't get any techs relevant to my tech goals from trade, and other civs generally didn't have them before me.

 

[Swarbs]

My main issue is not with the difficulty of getting civs to friendly. That's doable. My main gripe is the lack of Christian civs. Often some of the "barbarian successors" don't take a state religion, so I could be left with only 2 christian civs (Byzzies & Franks).

Have you tried opening borders, converting all their cities, gifting them state religion and then asking / bribing them to adopt SR and waiting for them to turn Christian? That's my strategy - you can switch to SR a few turns before the target without failing the goal, as long as you stick with the no state religion option. If they have Christianity in all their cities they will usually choose Christianity as soon as they adopt SR.

Japan: China not nearly as good a trading partner / fast techer as the UHV would have liked, mostly due to failure of Jin to unite China, and even if they unite China, generally poor tech performance.

I managed to get paper in time, but couldn't get any techs relevant to my tech goals from trade, and other civs generally didn't have them before me.

How close were you to Steel Working? And what difficulty? I still think the Japanese UHV of getting both techs is near impossible, unless you can somehow anticipate the way the AI is going to tech, and go down the opposite route (so if they go towards Paper you go towards SW and vice versa).

 

[CrossRFC]

How close were you to Steel Working? And what difficulty? I still think the Japanese UHV of getting both techs is near impossible, unless you can somehow anticipate the way the AI is going to tech, and go down the opposite route (so if they go towards Paper you go towards SW and vice versa).

I had just discovered Paper before the UHV date, with some two dozen + turns to Steel Working. On Monarch.

Have you tried opening borders, converting all their cities, gifting them state religion and then asking / bribing them to adopt SR and waiting for them to turn Christian? That's my strategy - you can switch to SR a few turns before the target without failing the goal, as long as you stick with the no state religion option. If they have Christianity in all their cities they will usually choose Christianity as soon as they adopt SR.

No, I haven't tried that. Although it's a good strategy, this seems to go against the principles of the civ... if you're not an Orthodox/Catholic (it's the same thing at this point really) Christian, why would you spread that faith to others and have them convert? Maybe the UHV itself needs to be changed. This is where some kind of mechanic for the heresies could come in.

 

[Swarbs]

No, I haven't tried that. Although it's a good strategy, this seems to go against the principles of the civ... if you're not an Orthodox/Catholic (it's the same thing at this point really) Christian, why would you spread that faith to others and have them convert? Maybe the UHV itself needs to be changed. This is where some kind of mechanic for the heresies could come in.

True, but by the same argument if you're not Christian, why would you care if the civs you are friendly with are or not? Tbh that UHV doesn't make much sense either from a historic or a gameplay perspective - Theodoric was friendly with everyone he could be, Christian or not. "...there was no race left in the western realms which Theoderic had not befriended or brought into subjection during his lifetime."

Perhaps the UHV should be changed to state he should be friendly with three European civs (i.e. civs with cities in Europe)?

 

[CrossRFC]

True, but by the same argument if you're not Christian, why would you care if the civs you are friendly with are or not? Tbh that UHV doesn't make much sense either from a historic or a gameplay perspective - Theodoric was friendly with everyone he could be, Christian or not. "...there was no race left in the western realms which Theoderic had not befriended or brought into subjection during his lifetime."

Perhaps the UHV should be changed to state he should be friendly with three European civs (i.e. civs with cities in Europe)?

That already seems like a better idea. I'll think about that quote and say if I can come up with an interesting spin on it.

EDIT:

Maybe collecting tribute from neighbours? Getting the Byzzies, Vandals, Visigoths and others to pay up (Theodoric intimidated the Vandals, ruled the Visigoths, received recognition from the Byz...). Or maybe similar conditions. The point is that Theodoric got 'friends' because he projected military power.

 

[Swarbs]

That already seems like a better idea. I'll think about that quote and say if I can come up with an interesting spin on it.

EDIT:

Maybe collecting tribute from neighbours? Getting the Byzzies, Vandals, Visigoths and others to pay up (Theodoric intimidated the Vandals, ruled the Visigoths, received recognition from the Byz...). Or maybe similar conditions. The point is that Theodoric got 'friends' because he projected military power.

Have the largest military? Or maybe befriend or vassalise the Vandals, Visigoths and Byzantines?

I think the Lombard UHVs need some work too. Settling a GS in Rome is very easy, as is building the National Epic given that you usually start with improved marble. The only challenge is holding off the barb hordes, and avoiding boredom long enough for one of your cities to have a WLTK day...

 

[CrossRFC]

Have the largest military? Or maybe befriend or vassalise the Vandals, Visigoths and Byzantines?

I think the Lombard UHVs need some work too. Settling a GS in Rome is very easy, as is building the National Epic given that you usually start with improved marble. The only challenge is holding off the barb hordes, and avoiding boredom long enough for one of your cities to have a WLTK day...

Personally as Lombards, depending on the balance of factions at the time I played, I got #rekt by Franks, barbarians and Byzzies, sometimes all at once. I mostly see Lombards as a struggle for survival, although yes, Lombards are definitely not fleshed out.

King Liutprand - (712-744) "was a zealous Catholic, generous and a great founder of monasteries"

... We could extract a UHV or two from that sentence, although I would focus on their missing UP/UB before changing UHVs.

EDIT:

We could use this unit art from http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12499 for the Lombard Militia. That is, if we're not already using that art.

Although I do prefer the idea of Lombard UU being some kind of ultra-spearman or heavy-spearman that one could spam out to defend against the hordes of invaders.


Further edit:

After a few 500+ AD games, it seems the Byz is having trouble keeping at least Constantinople from the Arabs. Considering we could possibly see Bulgaria being implemented in the North, it means rough times for the Byz.

Tang tech goal: gunpowder is not a tech. Do you mean Alchemy?

 

[srpt]

rev 172

fixed the Qin victory screen

Terracotta Army now goes obsolete with Organized Religion

Tang tech goal changed to Printing Press and Alchemy

disabled the pirate bribe feature since it never seemed to work properly

got thrash4ever's 2nd draft open. here it is as a WBS so you can look at it. here are the changes I am planning:

Spoiler :

more forest in Yan province, the coastal area between N China and Manchuria

split the Yellow river below Luoyang

add the Salween River

add the Huai River

marshes in central south China, N of Changsha

peaks near Shu

water behind Gusu

plus more probably

looking back over the forum I found a post suggesting adding Sun Tzu's Art of War as a pre-placed wonder. it seems a bit unfair that the Middle East/East Mediterranean has six wonders in 320BC and India and China have none

as for the Ostrogoths and Lombards, keep the ideas coming, I'm open to any changes

someone mentioned being bored waiting for the "we love the king" day with the lombards. maybe they could have a UP that helps with that

 

[Swarbs]

Also Qin 3rd UHV says you need to have 9 regions, but the counter is out of 8, and checks when you have 8 regions.

 

[srpt]

rev 173

fixed the Qin UHV text

changed the terrain in Libya to enable Antipyrgus and Siwa

changed some terrain in the middle Nile, still thinking about how to enable Aswan

added DC123456789's settler maps for Egypt and Seleucids

 

[Swarbs]

Personally as Lombards, depending on the balance of factions at the time I played, I got #rekt by Franks, barbarians and Byzzies, sometimes all at once. I mostly see Lombards as a struggle for survival, although yes, Lombards are definitely not fleshed out.

Lombards might be one of those civs when Emperor ends up almost being easier than Monarch. In my Lombard games, I've had huge hordes of barbs coming in from Dacia and Ilyria, but no really attacks from the Franks or ERE, probably because they are so busy fighting off the same barbs. It made it quite easy in the end - raze Ravenna, found Aquileia on the hill, walls in the city and militia fortified on the lumber hill stops most of the barbs.

Maybe the Emperor level barbs need to be changed to spawn near the AI less often, so the late game AI civs remain challenging, rather than just being barb fodder? The Arabs taking Constantinople could be a function of this issue, with the ERE being worn down by barbs from the Balkans.

 

[CrossRFC]

Lombards might be one of those civs when Emperor ends up almost being easier than Monarch. In my Lombard games, I've had huge hordes of barbs coming in from Dacia and Ilyria, but no really attacks from the Franks or ERE, probably because they are so busy fighting off the same barbs. It made it quite easy in the end - raze Ravenna, found Aquileia on the hill, walls in the city and militia fortified on the lumber hill stops most of the barbs.

Maybe the Emperor level barbs need to be changed to spawn near the AI less often, so the late game AI civs remain challenging, rather than just being barb fodder? The Arabs taking Constantinople could be a function of this issue, with the ERE being worn down by barbs from the Balkans.

It's easy once you get set up, but if a 5+ swordsman stack walks into Italy while you're still attacking Roma, the Ostrogoths in Illyria or fighting off the Franks (or all of the above), they'll hurt you pretty bad. I lost Ravenna 2 or 3 times, Milan once and Genoa once, before I was able to keep them out of my borders.

The balance between Byz and Arabia is very delicate and probably needs an in-depth look at the balance of forces each time a major milestone is reached (Egypt, Tarsus, Carthage).

 

[DC123456789]

got thrash4ever's 2nd draft open. here it is as a WBS so you can look at it. here are the changes I am planning:

Spoiler :

more forest in Yan province, the coastal area between N China and Manchuria

split the Yellow river below Luoyang

add the Salween River

add the Huai River

marshes in central south China, N of Changsha

peaks near Shu

water behind Gusu

plus more probably

It would be nice to make Eastern Gansu more settleable as well.

 

[Tigranes]

srpt, I would like to bring to your attention two organizational issues that can save a lot of time for players. First, I don't know what you did with your WB maps but double clicking them does not allow one immediately lunch your mod. One has to start normal BTS, load the mod and them pick up a scenario. All the other RFC mods and most other mods (and yours few months ago for that matter) simply allow users to double click on desired map and start choosing civilizations. Secondly, would you please disable autosave during the autorun.

 

[CrossRFC]

srpt, I would like to bring to your attention two organizational issues that can save a lot of time for players. First, I don't know what you did with your WB maps but double clicking them does not allow one immediately lunch your mod. One has to start normal BTS, load the mod and them pick up a scenario. All the other RFC mods and most other mods (and yours few months ago for that matter) simply allow users to double click on desired map and start choosing civilizations. Secondly, would you please disable autosave during the autorun.

When I click on the WBS of RFCCW, it boots up RFCCW by default. This is NOT true for the Steam version of the game however.

Also, has anyone checked up on plausibility of Bactrian UHV? Bactrians were insanely hard last time I played, when "barbarian invader" civs were still being tested out.

 

[Swarbs]

It's easy once you get set up, but if a 5+ swordsman stack walks into Italy while you're still attacking Roma, the Ostrogoths in Illyria or fighting off the Franks (or all of the above), they'll hurt you pretty bad. I lost Ravenna 2 or 3 times, Milan once and Genoa once, before I was able to keep them out of my borders.

The balance between Byz and Arabia is very delicate and probably needs an in-depth look at the balance of forces each time a major milestone is reached (Egypt, Tarsus, Carthage).

I never attack Illyria - that just seems to be asking for trouble imo, given how strong the barbs are in that region. If you raze Ravenna and found Aquileia on the hill then it becomes much more defensible, particularly as you can use some slaves to rush walls if needed early on.

In general I rush Rome then just get Milan to build militia constantly from the start as Lombards, which usually helps keep the barbs and Franks pacified. The strat does depend quite a lot on how well defended Rome is tho'.