RFC Europe: Events

micbic

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As RFCE is approaching beta, it may be time for more ''specialized'' threads to be created. This one scopes to dealing with the new events to be created for this modmod, as well as a new idea (taken from Europa Universalis): Nation specific events. These could have a specific timeframe and be historically okay with the nation.
For example: Title: The Mongol threat
Nations available: Kievan Rus, Muscowy
Year appearance: 1200-1250 AD
Text: Rumors have spread from the far Asian lands that raging hordes of barbarians, self-called the Mongols, are marching towards our lands!!!
Options: Rumors. Who ever believed them?? (none)
Increase our army size (free arbalest at each city, -200 :gold:)
Prepare our troops for the invasion (-300 :gold:, all units get a +25% percent against mounted units.

What do you think about that?
 
Does that equal to Formation promotion to each military unit? Furthermore, what about the units that do have a Formation promotion to begin with? Just ignore them? (Not a big issue, though.)
 
If this event went on I think they should ignore them. Note though that it is just a random example showing a general formula of how these events should be ;)
 
As I said in the Papal States thread, I'd like a Reconquista event separated from the Crusades one, several national revolts event, religious prosecutions events, corporation-related events...

The possibilities are endless.
 
As I said in the Papal States thread, I'd like a Reconquista event separated from the Crusades one, several national revolts event, religious prosecutions events, corporation-related events...

The possibilities are endless.

Devising all kinds of events to replicate historical reality are all very colourful and interesting of course, but aren't we moving much closer to sim-type gaming and away from playable strategy gaming? Personally, I'd rather retain a fairly level playing field for all civs with attainable UHV goals. The way some people seem to be heading is a situation where some civs are designed to be automatically obsolete halfway through the mod but a select few battle it out until the end. If that's the intention then I completely disagree.
 
Devising all kinds of events to replicate historical reality are all very colourful and interesting of course, but aren't we moving much closer to sim-type gaming and away from playable strategy gaming? Personally, I'd rather retain a fairly level playing field for all civs with attainable UHV goals. The way some people seem to be heading is a situation where some civs are designed to be automatically obsolete halfway through the mod but a select few battle it out until the end. If that's the intention then I completely disagree.

It's just talk about events.

The events I propose have nothing to do with making civs disappear, and can be pretty generic (Reconquista no less than the Crusades), though I understand your concern.

BTW, isn't Byzantium supposed to be "obsolete" by the 1400s or so?
 
I think the point of having UHVs is to create a fun (i.e. challenging) game for all players without requiring equality. It's fun to play as the naturally weak Mayans in RFC for instance. You know there are limits to what you can achieve, but you also know that you can (with effort) do better than history, and that's rewarding.

We don't want to make the mod overly deterministic, I agree, but I really believe we don't want a mod in which almost every time you play Cordoba is controlling half of Iberia into the 19th century, or Poland is always the strongest player, etc. That ruins all the historical feel we're attempting to create.

Bit of a derail from events perhaps. I haven't taken a look at how to mod events yet, so I don't know off the bat what is easy/hard, but I know there's a nice tutorial around somewhere. Obviously ideas which are substantially similar to base-game events will be easy to implement.
 
It's just talk about events.

The events I propose have nothing to do with making civs disappear, and can be pretty generic (Reconquista no less than the Crusades), though I understand your concern.

BTW, isn't Byzantium supposed to be "obsolete" by the 1400s or so?

I'm not really arguing against more events at all but I think we need to fine-tune our existing events a lot better if they are going to be have accurate timescales and give a more realistic feel to the mod.
One example is the barb swarm in Anatolia about 1040 (the Seljuk Turks?) which seems to drag on for over a hundred years in our game but really should end in the early 1100s. In history the Seljuks established the Sultanate of Rum which lasted right to the Mongol invasions of the early 1200s.
So there should be two barb spawns in Anatolia. One from 1070-1100 and another from 1240-1270 to represent the Mongol invasions. Another event which is portrayed wrongly is the Black Death which lasted from about 1340-1380. But in our mod I've seen 3 separate plagues, in 1350, 1400 and 1500, all in the same game.
 
As for respawns now, I believe that they should be an event, and both the player and the AI should have the possibilities to either let it, or disallow that (war).
More specifically, I have this in mind:
Title: National Revolt
Script: The (civ which has died and you occupy all of its core) wants independence! What should we do?
Possibilities: They can be no free! We should bring them in our realm whatever the price (war, civ breaks free )
OK, but they will accept our superiority (civ becomes a vassal, -25:gold: per city revolting)
Try to negotiate with them, as to remain part of our kingdom (-50:gold: per city revolting, civ remains ours, no revolt from this civ for 50 turns)

Good idea, or a bad one?
 
Maybe more options? "Let the civ be free" (civ is free, no war, +4\3 diplo relations with the civ?"
Also what if a civ is dead but it's area isn't controlled by another civ? (say kiev taken by mongols, or burgundy takes frankia and then collapse)
 
I think in these cases, the respawn should go as before.
And the comment about the ''let them be free'' case is also right.
 
One of the keys to doing a historical game is finding the balance between real history and potential history. If a game is set to be real history, it's not going to be any fun. But part of the fun is how close it hews to history. So designers need to have two goals:

1. The potential for the real world outcome to exist. For RFCE, this would be a set of roughly equal nation-states as superpowers, with a few others as minor powers. If this never happened, that would be a problem.

2. The feeling that alternate history events could have happened. The best way for this to happen is variety. If Poland is always a superpower, then it feels deterministic that the Poles will succeed. Since that didn't happen, this is a bad result.

Now, with something like Cordoba, the question is: is it necessary that Cordoba collapse? In RFC, it was fairly necessary that Babylon collapse, with pressure from Persia, then Arabia and Turkey. Does Cordoba fit that model? Does Poland?
 
I agree that we should be seeking a balance between real history and potential history. Not just alt. history where anything and everything might have happened by some magical throw of the dice. But history as it could have happened given a series of circumstances and conditions which actually existed. I don't think there is any necessity for any of the civs in our mod to have some automatic date by which they must be automatically obsolete. But I think its within our powers to create conditions whereby some civs, according to their situation, have a greater potential for survival than others. Meanwhile, all the civs in our mod should have realistic and achievable means of gaining victory. A complete rethink on UHV goals is, in my opinion, long overdue.
 
I agree with Arkaeyn that a balance should exist between "normal" outcomes and alternative history.

In my opinion, RFC is great because it is a generally non-deterministic simulation, rather than a scenario (with set times for events).

Currently the _only_ completely deterministic events in RFC are 1) Rise times/locations. Plagues and barbarians (and Crusades, for us) are partially-deterministic in that they happen in pre-established time-frames. For this reason I oppose specific re-spawn times, which would add another element of determinism (I have no problem with the suggestion that a human player get more choice in what happens in the event of a re-spawn in their land).

My preference would be to have some events with appropriate flavor, but not tie them too closely to specific dates/times/or civs.

As an example, let us take the Hussite uprising. The scenario approach would be to have the Hussite uprising occur at a set time and place. The simulation approach would be to have an event (we can call it a Hussite uprising for historical flavor) that will randomly occur with low probability for any civ with a certain set of conditions (i.e. Catholic, a certain tech level, perhaps a certain form of government).
 
wow I just spent 10 minutes writing something out and then accidentally hit the backspace, I sum it up.

Respawns could be linked to techs (such as nationalism in RFC) therefore variable time (techs represent ideas) this would be extremely realistic such as when romanticism influenced the Greek rebellions against the ottomans, or how nationalism allowed for a Prussian unification of Germany

Might be hard to implement, but I think there should be a city surrender event for independents that are heavily under siege, maybe every once in a while an indie will surrender to the opposition if for example there is a large army outside its walls and its in sphere of influence
then again this might make taking down an indie to easy

Different respawn locations at different dates (might be hard) but maybe have the byzantine respawn in Athens later in the game to represent Greek independence, or Germany respawn in Berlin to represent Prussia's rise to power, e.t.c. e.t.c. this of course wouldn't work for many civs but it would be interesting

My main problem with RFCE... Germany
Historically Germany was not a solid unified state for any extended period of time until
Prussia's German unification. for most of history Germany was in reality a collection of independent states, the holy roman empire in itself was a joke in that it only reacted in solidarity for brief periods of time. My solution,
Drastically reduce Germany's stability until the discovery of nationalism, making it nearly impossible for an AI Germany to not succumb to collapse, and then counter that by increasing its respawns, so that u have a German empire popping up every once and a while that becomes a powerhouse for a bit before collapsing itself.
This would create an interesting feature in that, German territories would often be open for short periods of time but the local stability would be extremely high for empire that try to conquer the region.
Alternatively it would be interesting if germany would collapse down into one city every once and a while (if you didnt want it to completely collapse, and at some times rapidly expand through indie Germany (represents HRE under strong rulers/ Prussian unification)
for the human players a UHV could be to not allow Germany to collapse by _____
would be interesting in that you'd really have to work with general instability
Is anyone else who knows the history bothered by a Germany that nearly every game survives from start to finish

Finally maybe some type of royal wedding thing, such as when hapsburgs controlled both Austria and Spain or when (im blanking on the name) had claims to both the English or French throne. this could be represented by maybe a relationship boost when a relative of yours is in power, or if you'd want to go the extreme maybe a country could gain control over an area due to marriage (if a civ collapses other civs with claims to the throne get pieces of the collapsed state)
 
In RFE, usually when I am instable, cities break off one at a time. Like in the Revolution mod. So a portion of what you are suggesting is already done.
 
As a student of German history, I think this is an excellent idea although it might make playing Germany extremely frustrating for a human player.

wow I just spent 10 minutes writing something out and then accidentally hit the backspace, I sum it up.

Respawns could be linked to techs (such as nationalism in RFC) therefore variable time (techs represent ideas) this would be extremely realistic such as when romanticism influenced the Greek rebellions against the ottomans, or how nationalism allowed for a Prussian unification of Germany

Might be hard to implement, but I think there should be a city surrender event for independents that are heavily under siege, maybe every once in a while an indie will surrender to the opposition if for example there is a large army outside its walls and its in sphere of influence
then again this might make taking down an indie to easy

Different respawn locations at different dates (might be hard) but maybe have the byzantine respawn in Athens later in the game to represent Greek independence, or Germany respawn in Berlin to represent Prussia's rise to power, e.t.c. e.t.c. this of course wouldn't work for many civs but it would be interesting

My main problem with RFCE... Germany
Historically Germany was not a solid unified state for any extended period of time until
Prussia's German unification. for most of history Germany was in reality a collection of independent states, the holy roman empire in itself was a joke in that it only reacted in solidarity for brief periods of time. My solution,
Drastically reduce Germany's stability until the discovery of nationalism, making it nearly impossible for an AI Germany to not succumb to collapse, and then counter that by increasing its respawns, so that u have a German empire popping up every once and a while that becomes a powerhouse for a bit before collapsing itself.
This would create an interesting feature in that, German territories would often be open for short periods of time but the local stability would be extremely high for empire that try to conquer the region.
Alternatively it would be interesting if germany would collapse down into one city every once and a while (if you didnt want it to completely collapse, and at some times rapidly expand through indie Germany (represents HRE under strong rulers/ Prussian unification)
for the human players a UHV could be to not allow Germany to collapse by _____
would be interesting in that you'd really have to work with general instability
Is anyone else who knows the history bothered by a Germany that nearly every game survives from start to finish

Finally maybe some type of royal wedding thing, such as when hapsburgs controlled both Austria and Spain or when (im blanking on the name) had claims to both the English or French throne. this could be represented by maybe a relationship boost when a relative of yours is in power, or if you'd want to go the extreme maybe a country could gain control over an area due to marriage (if a civ collapses other civs with claims to the throne get pieces of the collapsed state)
 
It would be realistic but fairly unplayable. Germany played by the AI would probably collapse too early to unify the area, so some areas remain empty. I'd rather have a strong Germany that has filled up it's modern area with powerful cities, than a Germany like Germany in RFC 1.181.
 
FuzzyRabbitLord: I agree that Germany/Holy Roman Empire doesn't really behave properly. I think we punted on this problem a long time ago when we decided to at least defer writing a whole bunch of special rules for the HRE.

Plain RFC has some civ-specific stability penalties and bonuses, so I'm not unilaterally opposed to make HRE more unstable on average.

One other possibility is to do it with Civics. We currently have an "Electorate" government civic. The stability for this civic could be written to help model the HRE -- large stability penalties for every additional city gained, but some protection against very negative stability so that in general cities split off instead of having the whole empire collapse. We can make the HRE leader prefer this civic, but would have to ensure that most other AIs didn't pick it. The other problem is that they human could just not select this civic (unless it were a requirement for the UHV somehow) and thus miss out on the whole HRE-like experience.
 
Actually, the HRE did never exist as a nation. I would take it more as an ''organization'', where member states voted for the Emperor. Moreover, I think it is wrong to take Germany as HRE, since Austria was a member too. So, we could represent the HRE as something as the UN, accessible in only a region. A nation must be Catholic to get in there, and they will vote for the leader. The leader of the HRE would then act as if having a DP with all civs-members, and 1) Help them out in every defensive war with any non-member 2) In case of internal war, war is declared to the attacker. Elections take place every lets say 100 years. The HRE would be destroyed if an enemy occupies the Emperor's capital.
So, IMO having Germany out there is a bit ahistorical. I suggest replacing them with the two most important German states: Prussia (spawn at Berlin, flips Leipzig), and Bavaria (spawn at Munchen, flips Augsburg). That would create some internal German antagonism as well. Add an indy Mainz and I think it is Ok...

What do you guys think?
 
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