RFC Europe map development thread

[st.lucifer]

Ah, I very much understand your points, and furthermore I very much respect them. However, I simply feel that the "uniqueness" of Venice and Ragusa are totally insignificant on this map's scale. I realize that few agree with this, but, I cannot tell a lie , I dislike their unmerited favor. Why shouldn't they be invadable by land? Sure it wasn't historically feasible, but neither were a huge number of things that haven't been included.
In short, do what you will, and I'll support you, but I'll never really approve of it.

As for the maps of the Balkans and of Italy, I'd really love to see a worldbuilder. I know it's dreafully inconvenient, but if you have some free time...

If you're ok with agreeing to disagree, I am too. You make good points.


If you're asking for a WB settler map of the Balkans/Italy, I don't have one - if you're looking for a general map, I'll try to put together an update early next week. Tuesday's probably the earliest I'll have time to sit down and fix the map, so look for it on 6/3 or 6/4.

 

[D. Zavoevatell]

If you're asking for a WB settler map of the Balkans/Italy, I don't have one - if you're looking for a general map, I'll try to put together an update early next week. Tuesday's probably the earliest I'll have time to sit down and fix the map, so look for it on 6/3 or 6/4.

Oh my! I hadn't meant for you to do aforementioned maps. And neither am I really asking anyone. I'm just prodding Mssrs. 3Miro and OneDreamer 'cause I'm a tease and I love to prod! Of course, when the weekend rolls around, I will certainly be able to do them myself if they've not yet been done.

Malgré tout çà, I look forward to seeing what you'll make. And why wouldn't I be? Progress is magnificent!

 

[onedreamer]

Advances in windmill technology are largely responsible for draining the marshes of the Netherlands and England, particularly for reclaiming land in the Netherlands. It may not have been the preferred method everywhere, but it's still dominant in keeping many of those areas dry. It's also a lot more work than having a worker or stack of workers hack away at a tile for a few turns.

But those marshes are different kind of marshes from the most common wetlands. Also, the Netherlands present particular meteorological conditions not present on the mediterranean, IE a lot of wind. I would say that the Netherlands is a particular case of land reclamation, not the contrary.

 

[onedreamer]

Ah, I very much understand your points, and furthermore I very much respect them. However, I simply feel that the "uniqueness" of Venice and Ragusa are totally insignificant on this map's scale. I realize that few agree with this, but, I cannot tell a lie , I dislike their unmerited favor. Why shouldn't they be invadable by land? Sure it wasn't historically feasible, but neither were a huge number of things that haven't been included.
In short, do what you will, and I'll support you, but I'll never really approve of it.

What we should realize here is that the problem is in the game engine. You speak of geography being modified, but you do not take into consideration the fact that cities, geographically, are simply not as large as they will be on the map. Not even one tenth. Because of this imprecision we will have to create further geographical imprecisions in order to make the whole gameplay more precise. If that makes sense.

I'll do the WBS this eve.

 

[SadoMacho]

The Netherlands learned a lot from there early efforts with windmills and other things. The use of dykes was very important in reclaiming the land, you can pump the water out but you need to keep it out too. So tech for this could be usefull. Later on steampower was used to complete the job and reclaim more land. The Dutch exported there know-how even as far as Russia in the period of the MOD.

 

[jessiecat]

The Netherlands learned a lot from there early efforts with windmills and other things. The use of dykes was very important in reclaiming the land, you can pump the water out but you need to keep it out too. So tech for this could be usefull. Later on steampower was used to complete the job and reclaim more land. The Dutch exported there know-how even as far as Russia in the period of the MOD.

In the case of England, Dutch and Flemish engineers and workers were responsible for the draining and reclamation of the Fens in Norfolk and Cambridgeshire. My partner's maiden name apparently is a reflection of this. It is "de Berdt", which she's been told literally means "bog man". Is this right?

 

[SadoMacho]

I don't know, dutch has changed a lot since the Middle ages.Mane names of medieval professions are not used anymore. But it sound Dutch, so it could be. I looked around a bit, but I couldn't find it. If she was on Flemish origin, it would be Meersman (Meers = marsh).

 

[D. Zavoevatell]

What we should realize here is that the problem is in the game engine. You speak of geography being modified, but you do not take into consideration the fact that cities, geographically, are simply not as large as they will be on the map. Not even one tenth. Because of this imprecision we will have to create further geographical imprecisions in order to make the whole gameplay more precise. If that makes sense.

Those are good points. It makes me feel a lot better about it. Thanks

I'll do the WBS this eve.

Bravo!
Not to disparage excel or images, but I adore worldbuilder. It's sooo romantic!

 

[3Miro]

D. Zavoevatell, there was a Balkan WB map and only couple of cities were changed from that version. I can very easily update one (for the Balkans onedreramer would have to start from scratch, I can just update one). Question is: Do you want it with Bulgarian or Byzantine or Modern city names? Some a quite a bit different.

 

[jessiecat]

D. Zavoevatell, there was a Balkan WB map and only couple of cities were changed from that version. I can very easily update one (for the Balkans onedreramer would have to start from scratch, I can just update one). Question is: Do you want it with Bulgarian or Byzantine or Modern city names? Some a quite a bit different.

Just to clarify. There was my Bulgarian and Byzantine settler maps including the Balkans, which you have revised and posted. And there is my Ottoman settler excel map including the Balkans which I have posted and can be found in the wiki files. Why does Onedreamer need to make another Balkan map?
For what other civ? I don't understand.

 

[3Miro]

Jessiecat, D. Zavoevatell wanted a Wb version of the maps. No one is making a new map, just porting the old ones that we made into the WB so they are easier to visualize. The question was, when I port them into the WB, should I use Bulgarian or Byzantine names.

 

[jessiecat]

Jessiecat, D. Zavoevatell wanted a Wb version of the maps. No one is making a new map, just porting the old ones that we made into the WB so they are easier to visualize. The question was, when I port them into the WB, should I use Bulgarian or Byzantine names.

I understood that. But I thought each had to be entered into code separately as they are
separate civ settler maps. So if you needed them in WB you'd need one each, using specific
names, wouldn't you? And I thought D.Z. regarded excel maps as just as easy to use
when he converted them to code anyway. What I meant was what did onedreamer mean
about doing a separate Italy and Balkans map? Was it for another civ like Venice or Genoa?
That's all.

 

[onedreamer]

Why does Onedreamer need to make another Balkan map?
For what other civ? I don't understand.

Dalmatia for Venice.

 

[jessiecat]

Dalmatia for Venice.

That's what I figured. Is it the same for Genoa? I would imagine that either civ settled elsewhere in the game they'd use a local name. Which would likely be the Byzantine one, I think. Or would it be an Italian one?

 

[onedreamer]

italian would be more appropriate

 

[3Miro]

A lot of the Byzantine names along the Dalmatian coast are in fact Roman names and hence Latin and hence not much different than Italian (I would think). Onedreamer, use my Balkan map as template, i.e. align the Venice cities on top of mine for consistency among the maps. We can later use those as conquest maps, i.e. Byzantine captures Ragusa, then Bulgaria captures it and it changes to Dobrovnik, then Venice captures it and it changes to whatever.

Due to the high diversity of languages on the Balkans, cities have changed names several times, if cities in Italy have changes names from Middle Ages till today, that should be reflected. So the names should not be necessarily in modern Italian.

The Excel maps should be easy to use for code generation, however, converting all of the existing Excel maps to WB maps would be a lot of work. I have the Balkans (in a mixture of modern and ancient names), but I don't have a WB version of the Byzantine maps for Asia Minor and north Africa.

 

[onedreamer]

The only reason why I would do the Dalmatian map is in case the game has actually a preferential system for settlers of certain civs (I don't know how this stuff works from a programming point of view). If this is not the case, I don't need to do anything right now I think, since as someone told me about french / german names for northern italian cities, that's another part of the project.
Latin names are not always close to italian. Example: Forum Julii > Cividale.
Italian, as a spoke language, is a very modern one (from the past century). You won't find many official italian names of cities outside Italy in the Middle Ages.

 

[jessiecat]

A lot of the Byzantine names along the Dalmatian coast are in fact Roman names and hence Latin and hence not much different than Italian (I would think). Onedreamer, use my Balkan map as template, i.e. align the Venice cities on top of mine for consistency among the maps. We can later use those as conquest maps, i.e. Byzantine captures Ragusa, then Bulgaria captures it and it changes to Dobrovnik, then Venice captures it and it changes to whatever.

Due to the high diversity of languages on the Balkans, cities have changed names several times, if cities in Italy have changes names from Middle Ages till today, that should be reflected. So the names should not be necessarily in modern Italian.

The Excel maps should be easy to use for code generation, however, converting all of the existing Excel maps to WB maps would be a lot of work. I have the Balkans (in a mixture of modern and ancient names), but I don't have a WB version of the Byzantine maps for Asia Minor and north Africa.

Sorry for the earlier confusion/misunderstanding on my part.
BTW Would it be cheeky to point out, as st. lucifer has said, that Ragusa
only was renamed Dubrovnik in 1909?

 

[3Miro]

Sorry for the earlier confusion/misunderstanding on my part.
BTW Would it be cheeky to point out, as st. lucifer has said, that Ragusa
only was renamed Dubrovnik in 1909?

The Slavic population in the region called it Dobrovnik since there were Slavs in the region. It seems from my research that the city was never under Bulgarian rule, however, if it had been conquerer, it would have been renamed. Similar is the case with Thessaloníki, it was never conquered by Bulgaria, however, Bulgarians only call it Solun and had it been conquered, it would have been renamed.

Hadrianopolis, Edirne, Odrin, has held all three names in Greek, Bulgarian and Turkish depending on who had the city at the time.

Was I wrong in my logic?

 

[Úmarth]

I believe we decided to name cities like that Miro when we were discussing Constantinople/Miklagarðr, so yes your logic is fine.