THANK YOU! Wow i have been trying very hard to make my point that Ottomans are overpowered, but people keep having an impression that if the Ottomans dont steamroll Constantinople and conquer the eastern half of the map they are underpowered. Lol.
RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread
- Thread starter st.lucifer
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THANK YOU! Wow i have been trying very hard to make my point that Ottomans are overpowered, but people keep having an impression that if the Ottomans dont steamroll Constantinople and conquer the eastern half of the map they are underpowered. Lol.
kochman
Deity
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- Jun 8, 2009
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This is a good point.
In history, the Ottomans did well, but they could have done poorly too... there should be some element of randomness to it.
Someone, can't remember who, was posting the ottoman results from each game they played, and they generally were always crushing... always...
Wessel V1
Emperor
The big problem is Constantinople I think. The city is on hills, and has a standard +200% defence bonus. Maybe the building that causes this insane bonus should be obsolete at some point.
merijn_v1
Black Belt
I'm playing the Ottomans right now. All things seems fine. (It just took some time to conquer Constantinople.) The main reason for this post, is that some Keshiks appeared in my territory. In 1380ish. At that time no Mongols should spawn anymore. Certainly not in Anatolia.
I'm not sure where this thread really fits.. but anyway
Someone had mentioned some 'softening' of settlermaps or so. (AI more likely to build on decent spots, i.e. on a river etc.)
Currently the Ventian AI and the Portuguese AI somewhat cripple themselves from the beginning.
Venice almost always builds Fiume as 2. city 3 tiles east of Venice. Fiume takes away the 3 hills which are pretty much the production base of Venice. I was exiled to Venice in a recent Dutch game aftre somewhat giving up and saw first hand how much the city sucked
in 1600 something only having built barracks, a granary, a harbor and maybe a church.
Portugal would be much better off building Lisboa 1N of starting position and Porto 1N of the apples. But instead they build Lisboa on starting pos. (as all AI do) and the bad part would be building Leira on the pig NW of Lisboa. Due to this Lisboa has hardly any food surplus. Only the crab which brings 4 food without a harbor. And thats not really enough to get things started especially concidering the bad health situation in the early game. Lisboa hardly reaches over size 5 in such a case. Building Lisboa 1N of starting pos. however could offer Pig, Crab, Fish, Iron, Horse, Timber, Wine & Sulphur making it a very nice Capitol.
In most cases England is at war with France from the start. Due to this they don't get any additional troops when Calais and Caen flip. Is this intentional? Read something about a fix in the latest patch for regular rfc regarding this issue with the american spawn.
Someone had mentioned some 'softening' of settlermaps or so. (AI more likely to build on decent spots, i.e. on a river etc.)
Currently the Ventian AI and the Portuguese AI somewhat cripple themselves from the beginning.
Venice almost always builds Fiume as 2. city 3 tiles east of Venice. Fiume takes away the 3 hills which are pretty much the production base of Venice. I was exiled to Venice in a recent Dutch game aftre somewhat giving up and saw first hand how much the city sucked
in 1600 something only having built barracks, a granary, a harbor and maybe a church.Portugal would be much better off building Lisboa 1N of starting position and Porto 1N of the apples. But instead they build Lisboa on starting pos. (as all AI do) and the bad part would be building Leira on the pig NW of Lisboa. Due to this Lisboa has hardly any food surplus. Only the crab which brings 4 food without a harbor. And thats not really enough to get things started especially concidering the bad health situation in the early game. Lisboa hardly reaches over size 5 in such a case. Building Lisboa 1N of starting pos. however could offer Pig, Crab, Fish, Iron, Horse, Timber, Wine & Sulphur making it a very nice Capitol.
In most cases England is at war with France from the start. Due to this they don't get any additional troops when Calais and Caen flip. Is this intentional? Read something about a fix in the latest patch for regular rfc regarding this issue with the american spawn.
kochman
Deity
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I don't think so, there is a reason it took decades for the Turks to destroy it... even when they eventually built a huge cannon for it, it wasn't obsolete in my opinion.
Wessel V1
Emperor
That can be true, but in game this currently isn't represented, because this is a game. I'd say that the Turks should be powerful enough to conquer Constantinople in 80% of the games. Right now they can't. Should Turkey be any stronger? I don't know, they are strong enough to take anything else if they want to. So, the solution would be to weaken Constantinople, which can be done in two ways: increase the intelligence of the Ottoman (or any civ in general) AI, which is the hard solution, or make the building that causes the exorbitant defensive bonus obsolete, which is the easy solution.
Doesnt cannons in the game ignore certain defensive bonuses?
80%?? Thats a bit high dont you think? Historically even when the Ottomans already have a full fledging empire, and even when the Byzantines are reduced to a city-state, the Ottomans still only JUST conquered the city even with a crazy sized cannon. Theres a reason why the Ottomans bypassed Constantinople first to conquer the other cities west of Constantinople before focusing their attention on Constantinople itself.
And this is important, but lets not forget the Ottomans only became so big becos the Byzantines did badly (poor leadership, internal problems, traitors etc.)
Why shouldn't Mongols appear in Anatolia in 1380? Timurids? (or something)
EDIT: To summarize this post, the game currently lacks a lot of historical accuracy, and it would be nice to see that changed.
Aren't Theodosian Walls obsolete with Gunpowder troops? And if they aren't, then why not have them be not resistant to Canon fire, because as Kochman just said it took them a long time to take them down, and they had to create canons for the event, so why not have the Theodosian Walls break under Turkish canon fire.
Wessel V1
Emperor
80% Was an estimate of course. I'd rather see 80% than 2% to be honest. I must admit that the AI sometimes CAN conquer the city, I just started a game as the Turks and Genoa bought the crusade and at the same time there was a big plague going on in Constantinople. Chances are not very high though since usually the plague comes much later. Still, it would make a difference for the Turkish AI, because Constantinople is the only land bridge between Europe and Asia. Turkey does a reasonable job against the Levant, especially when Arabia has collapsed, but in Europe they won't expand much further than the flipped city.
Also, the weak Byzantium is the Byzantium we are trying to represent here. If we wouldn't do that, they would be horribly overpowered. Also, we just cannot represent the Visigoth or Ostrogoth empire, because of the game mechanics. There are many wonderful ideas, but we always have to remember that it has to be within the line of how the game works. There are two ways to expand that line: teach the AI how to do that or build a script. The first one is preferable in most cases because it can be used in multiple cases, but the second one is by far the easiest to accomplish.
So wouldn't it be historical if Turkey conquered, for instance, Constantinople?
merijn_v1
Black Belt
It is just an problem for they AI. A great bombard has 50% bombard damage. You start with 1 and 2 Trebs. You will be able to reduce that 200% to 0% in about 5 turns. (If you upgrade your trebs to Great Bombards even faster) We only need to make the AI use them to conquer Constantinople. Then they will conquer Constantinople very easy.
AbsintheRed
Deity
Constantinople is perfectly fine on 200%
I agree with the others, it wasn't a conincidence that the Ottomans couldn't capture it till 1453
fireclaw722
Imperial Guard
The Ottomans are always super-powerful, or at least their army is, as in my current game(Holland, 1700's now) the Ottomans have conquered to Tobruk, all of Greece and the Levant, but haven't even tried at Constantinople(by this point the Byzantines have vassallized[only 4 turns ago]).
So wouldn't it be historical if Turkey conquered, for instance, Constantinople?
Yes, but the odds of that happening should also be historical. 80% is too high to be historically accurate, and i think you guys know that
Wessel V1
Emperor
Indeed, that is my whole point. We shouldn't make Turkey even more powerful to have them have a chance to capture Constantinople, in stead we should weaken both Constantinople AND Turkey. Units are simply way too cheap. With some faith points, ANY city can build a worker in one or two turns. If we weaken Constantinople, then it is also logical to increase the unit costs for Turkey from 40% to 55% or 60%. That would make Turkey weaker in the Levant, but not so much weaker in the Balkans because they have a connected empire then.
And really, don't pin me on 80%. I already said that it was an estimate and could as well be 30%. Again, I don't like it being 2%, the chance that both the plague and a crusade strike just before 1300 AD.
AbsintheRed
Deity
Absolutely agree on weakening the Ottomans
But on Constantinople: Why do you need a plague and crusade just before 1300?
In history, they only managed to occupy Istanbul in 1453, more than 15 decades later
Why do you want them to occupy right on spawn in the game?
But on Constantinople: Why do you need a plague and crusade just before 1300?
In history, they only managed to occupy Istanbul in 1453, more than 15 decades later
Why do you want them to occupy right on spawn in the game?
Why weaken the Ottomans?? Since when have you EVER seen them penetrate Egypt/North Africa let alone take all of the Levant? I mean you NEVER see them take over large parts of the Balkans anyways, its a big disappointment, I say just weaken Constantinople
wolfigor
Emperor
The Ottoman empire was very expansionist until it reached its apogee in 1566, following by a more "calm" time and stagnant, loosing territories to European powers.
If possible in the code it will be good to have dynamic unit costs for the Ottomans: Leave as they are now for the beginning and increase constantly from 1500 onward.
The Ottomans in the game seems very good at conquering independents but strangely "shy" against other powers.
In my last game, Bulgaria collapsed and the conquered almost all Balkans.
In a following war the just rolled over the Venetian territories and completely conquered Hungary and most of the black Sea, including Crimea.
The main reason was just a HUGE army, larger than anybody's else by orders of magnitude.
Their super huge army is a quite common occurrence that makes them pretty much invincible on field.
If possible in the code it will be good to have dynamic unit costs for the Ottomans: Leave as they are now for the beginning and increase constantly from 1500 onward.
In most (but not all) games I did play with the beta version the Ottomans had a huge, powerful, and often misused army.
The Ottomans in the game seems very good at conquering independents but strangely "shy" against other powers.
In my last game, Bulgaria collapsed and the conquered almost all Balkans.
In a following war the just rolled over the Venetian territories and completely conquered Hungary and most of the black Sea, including Crimea.
The main reason was just a HUGE army, larger than anybody's else by orders of magnitude.
Their super huge army is a quite common occurrence that makes them pretty much invincible on field.
Wessel V1
Emperor
This is needed, because that is one of the few setups that can make the AI conquer the city. I'm not talking about the human player, it doesn't matter how strong Turkey is, the human will conquer Constantinople. The AI won't, unless the setup I provided is present. At least a plague must be present, the Ottomans must be aiming for Constantinople (which is more likely in 1300), and if possible a crusade should seriously weaken the city even more. That is the way for the AI to conquer the city. If you have a screenshot of a Turkish Constantinople where this didn't happen, please share it with us.
Yes, I have actually. Also, realize that any unit in the Balkans currently has no effect in Asia, because Constantinople is Byzantine and the AI doesn't ferry it's units effectively. If Constantinople is Turkish, that problem will be gone so there won't be a huge loss of power anyway.
IIRC, in the early Alpha stages we were trying to make the Turks more powerful, get them to capture Constantinople. At first they started around Ankara, but nothing happened. Now, they start on the west coast, 'which is unhistorical', but might also lead to a Turkey that conquers Constantinople. It doesn't so often (understatement, obviously
) however, so, to be clear, I'd say that upon the discovery of Flintlock (a tech that should be discovered around 1450), the defensive bonus of Constantinople should be removed. Walls, castles, the hill and rivers will do their job so even then it won't be clear.
