RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[civ_king]

Honestly as the Ottomans I found Constantinople a little too easy, I used only the initial stack, not later stacks (What was with those?) I simply bombarded it down to minimum, waited a turn threw all bombards against Constantinople and then hit it with every unit non-bombard unit in the same turn.

What I realized is that for the Ottomans, Orthodoxy>Islam because do they really need faster units? So that killed half the bonus, but Orthodoxy gives stability and cheapens empire upkeep (by reducing civic costs), so as long as you spread Orthodoxy and construct buildings there really is no limit to empire size (I in a wild panic overestimated when I had to control Vienna and I burned down Hungary and most of Austria (settling in the dust with imperialism) I had enough stability from Orthodoxy that I absorbed burning down 20+ cities

 

[FakeShady]

Okay without having read the other posts after this one, I must say that you are seriously trolling now. It is not the Turk who wants this, it is all of us, and you obvioulsly are using arguments mainly against the Turk because he is the Turk. Please hold off your Christian bias and let us evolve the game. Although sometimes things are flavoured in a certain direction, this is a non-religious debate and so you should drop your Christian bias. Nobody has anything against you.

So, to continue, I think the walls should be obsolete against ALL units when Byzantium discovers gunpowder. I believe there won't be so much gain otherwise, although it could be tested.

Now, I'm going to read the other posts. And please, stop using RELIGIOUS BIAS! (for God's sake ^^).

I'm sorry, how is that religious bias?? Or troll? I am actually gonna second kochman's post, simply because i agree that Ottomans shouldn't be able to defeat Constantinople on spawn. They should actually have to work for it if they want Constantinople/Istanbul, shouldn't they??

@ The Turk: i am actually okay with all your suggestions about making the walls obsolete, removing the hill in Constantinople blahblah... except for the one where you wanna 2-3 more cannons. No, just please, no. Turkey starts with ridiculously lots of units already, and you know that.

In fact, i'm actually gonna recommend that Turkey be given LESS units on spawn, now that you guys seem to have agreed upon taking away the walls and hills and what not...

 

[Issos]

I'm sorry, but you saying that Constantinople was well defended in 1453, is quite a big laugh. The only thing that separated Emperor Constantine XI and the town police force and Mehmed II and his thousands of elite Ghazi warriors was the Theodosian Walls. Once the large cannons were delivered to the Ottomans though, they were able to render the Theodosian Walls obsolete, and quickly overcame the city.

Don't believe me, please listen to Lars Brownworth's Podcast, "12 Byzantine Rulers", listen to the last podcast on Constantine XI, it'll explain to you the dire situation the Empire was already in.

I do belive, also i agree . But reason of that "dire situation" were, mostly, disasters that weakened Bizantine Empire, along with turkish invasion.

If i remember correctly, sameone said that Turkish AI took Constantinopole when it was hit by both crusades and plague few turns earlier. This is how it should work, we should only make it happen more often

In shorter form: Don't make Constantinopole easier to capture! Make Turks want it more!

It's just my opinion, though

 

[kochman]

Be careful Issos, soon you too will be accused of being biased... don't worry, the Turk's clear bias is totally acceptable, but if you are biased toward anything that resembles the idea of a "christian" perspective, you will have several people jump down your throat (and the Turk is not one of those people, to his credit).

 

[FakeShady]

I'm sorry, but you saying that Constantinople was well defended in 1453, is quite a big laugh. The only thing that separated Emperor Constantine XI and the town police force and Mehmed II and his thousands of elite Ghazi warriors was the Theodosian Walls. Once the large cannons were delivered to the Ottomans though, they were able to render the Theodosian Walls obsolete, and quickly overcame the city.

Don't believe me, please listen to Lars Brownworth's Podcast, "12 Byzantine Rulers", listen to the last podcast on Constantine XI, it'll explain to you the dire situation the Empire was already in.

And really guys, I think that once the Ottomans have pretty much conquered all of Greece and Anatolia, Constantinople should just collapse anyways, (unless they are the human player), in the sense that the Ottomans should be able to capture Constantinople pretty much EVERY time, rather than only 3/4 times it should be 9/10 times at the very least.

Now on to the problem of ACTUALLY fixing this problem. Since the human player is already able to conquer Constantinople, we should just give the extra spawning cannons to the Ottomans when they are being played by the AI, and they can spawn in 1400 or 1444, really whatever, but what should also happen is that gunpowder units should render the Theodosian walls useless (just like in real life), just like they do for normal walls and castles.

i dont know how to reply to you since thats your version of history, but i think you need to know that the siege of 1453 is anything but a walkover. Honestly i think thats just biased dude. Constantinople is even till that point a fortress, and like it or not Constantinople at 1453 had every chance of protecting their city.

Though i call myself the official "biased" Byzantium man, i try to keep it fair to the other civs, occasionally testing out Venice and Germany and what not, and the only reason i'm rooting for Byzantium is because i saw how pathetic they were in Alpha 7 or 8. But even with all those plagues, decreased city growth rate, pathetic numbers of armies per city, horrible stability, mad Seljuk invasion, Mongols, Arabs taking jerusalem on spawn, crusades, and a untimely plague that just nice affects Byzantium in 1300 but not Turkey, and Turkey spawning so near to Constantinople all of a sudden, i remained silent at times because i realize some things need to be there to ensure gameplay balance, or Byzantium may run riot. Now i understand that you're The Turk, but i try to assume that you're fair at all times to all parties. Still i dont wish to call you anything... but really. There weren't "large cannons", only "large cannon" that took like forever to reload. And it was anything but "quickly overcame the city". Yes the empire was in a screwed up mess in 1453, thats why theres only a city left. But that doesnt make that city any less of a fortress. I think you should face the fact that a main factor in Ottomans not taking Constantinople is because its well defended, and the Ottomans feared huge casualties in taking it. But look how much they love the city once they took it. It was never a walkover. They wanted Constantinople right at the start. And they rightly deserved it in the end.

I really wish i can stop commenting on this matter in the future.

 

[Barak]

In a game a Bulgaria, I have a GP, discovered Plate Armor, have access to Iron yet cannot found Knights Hospitaller (hasn't been founded)

Thoughts?

 

[The Turk]

@FakeShady , kochman and Issos (my favourite critics )

First off, @FakeShady, there were more than ONE big canons constructed by Urban a Hungarian engineer (ironic?). There were several, and yes at first, before Urban approached Mehmed II, it looked like the battle was going to draw in a stalemate, the Theodosian walls were too strong, and could not be brought down that easily by the Ottomans. But when Urban approached the Ottomans, he made for them the largest cannons at the time, and with those cannons, unrelenting days of constant bombardment took place, which finally brought the walls tumbling down. After the walls were rendered obsolete, Mehmed II called forth his Ghazis to storm the breach in the wall, the Police force of Constantinople and a few Genoan volunteers, valiantly held the breach for as long as they could, but in the end, the power of Mehmed II warriors was too strong, and they quickly overran the remaining defenders and (quite sadly ) sacked the city (but not touching the Hagia Sophia, as they had plans for that).

I personally find it probably one of the most beautiful battles in history, especially looking at the Byzantine side of it. But overall, since no one seems to have listened to Lars Brownworth's podcast, on Constatine XI (the last Byzantine Ruler), I decided to give you guys the website which will direct you to the download instead, here it is:
http://12byzantinerulers.com/

Now onto the game dynamics. The reason I said we should add more cannons or spawn them as I suggested, (but JUST for the AI), was in representation of Urban's creation of the mega canons, which he constructed for the Ottomans. Because after the creation of the cannons, Mehmed II was able to blast his way into Constantinople, and after that his massive army was able to make short work out of the small contingent of forces which Constantine XI was able to scrap together. So if spawning the canons for the AI is such a sin, I would at least implore you guys to have the Theodosian Walls become obsolete against Gunpowder units, (just like walls and castles are normally), and I also think it would be a good idea to remove the hill from Constantinople.

The reason I say this is because, it becomes quite ridiculous for the AI Ottomans not to be able to capture Constantinople. In the original RFC game I have never ONCE seen an independent Constantinople after the Ottomans have spawned. The same should be the case here, the Ottomans should be able to capture Constantinople at LEAST 9/10 times, and perhaps the odd rarity that it either takes longer to capture Constantinople, or the Ottomans are just not able to, which is fine as well from time to time. And overall I am not saying this because I am Turkish, I am saying this as a universal citizen (you could say), just because I am Turkish, does not mean everything I say is in favour of the Ottomans becoming the largest superpower in the game, I respect balance and historical accuracy, those are my main attractions to a good mod like this one.


PS. For the record, I can't say that kochman is biased, he is just trying to offer his opinion, which some of us might disagree with, but at least he is trying to offer different alternatives to our dilemma

PPS. Please don't say that I am "officially biased against Byzantium, because I was the guy that said that Bulgaria should be weakened and that the Byzantines should have the ability to really do harm to them, if they want, rather than having Bulgaria AI becoming a world power every time. (And once again I am talking about the AI)

 

[kochman]

Well, thank you Turk... I, however, can admit to having a bias.
I am sure you can admit to having one, too.

It is a good thing. It is good to have someone like you to make sure the Islamic nations are not too weak... and it is good to have people like me to counter some of your propositions that might make them too strong. We are the ying and the yang, and this brings balance to suggestions. It isn't like we are making things up out of thin air.

What isn't good... the people who want to attack other people for having a bias, which is nothing more than a perspective. For some reason, it bothers some people that other people might have a perspective that makes them feel ____________ (insert appropriate adjective). Not very tolerant

 

[Jusos2108]

While I would really like too see the Ottomans taking Constantinople more often (as I hate to see them vassalising to the Ottomans and surviving forever), I do question the Turk's information about the actual siege.

The siege lasted nearly two months (5.4.1453-29.5.1453, 5th because that's when first Ottomans were actually seen from the Theodisian Walls) and Mehmet's troops made several, not too severe though, attempts (1st 18.4.1453) to take the walls suffering heavy losses. There was only ONE really big cannon, which was first placed against the gate of Kaligar next to Blachernai. The big cannon couldn't do much to the walls there, so it was moved in front the gate of Saint Romanos. The turning point was that the attacking gate of Kerkoporta was left unlocked probably by the Venetians (whose relationships with the Ottomans were at that time very good. Loukas Notaras is another possibility, although his troops fought valiantly against the Ottomans) from which the Ottomans were able break through and into the city. The walls were only breached after this.

I have read a 450 page book about the siege.

 

[kochman]

Weren't there also previous, unsuccessful sieges?

 

[Wessel V1]

I think it is time to clear up my post since it was a little exaggerated, probably. I will not retreat my post however since this is certainly not the first time is happens, and yes I really think religious or geographic bias is playing a role. Which might be my own perspective or not, but please be objective. The reason I quoted your post was that I felt that it was you who started arguing this way this time. Please correct me if I was wrong, I just felt that it had to be said once.

Well, thank you Turk... I, however, can admit to having a bias.
I am sure you can admit to having one, too.

It is a good thing. It is good to have someone like you to make sure the Islamic nations are not too weak... and it is good to have people like me to counter some of your propositions that might make them too strong. We are the ying and the yang, and this brings balance to suggestions. It isn't like we are making things up out of thin air.

What isn't good... the people who want to attack other people for having a bias, which is nothing more than a perspective. For some reason, it bothers some people that other people might have a perspective that makes them feel ____________ (insert appropriate adjective). Not very tolerant

And therefore I agree with this post. You know, perhaps you both are taking this "balancing each other" to a point that nothing will satisfy the other, which is after several months starting to get annoying. We should not be arguing whether Islamic countries were very tolerant or very cruel (which is one of the debates I thought of when writing that post), but what could improve the game. The argument base should be these lines:

- Constantinople never gets conquered by the AI because the Turkish AI is not capable in doing so.
- We would like the Turkish AI to do that in some games.
- To solve this problem, a solution is needed.

The solution is obviously not to improve the Turks. It would slow down the game and make it even harder for the AI to see what is a target and what not. We could, as I suggested, make Constantinople weaker from a certain point. I would like to invite you all to start debating here.

So, why should Constantinople be weakened? In history, Constantinople was one of the best defended cities EVER!

Yes, that is true. On the other hand, we all know that Byzantium could not keep the mighty city. Whether this is because of the powerful Turks, the absolute decline of the empire or some lucky case, it happened. We could also debate on the possibility of Hannibal conquering Rome, which was also a possibility, but that did not happen. There are endless ways where history could follow an alternative path, so the easiest way to overview it, is to take the real path. Conclusion: the Turks should conquer Constantinople, in some / most of the games. I won't be throwing numbers now, since I don't really care, except that it should be within the 20-80% range.

What difference would it make? Well, Byzantium is gone as a diplomatic power. With the few cities they hadn't lost already. The Turks are now more efficient: Greece and Anatolia are connected. As a consequence of a Turkish Istanbul, unit must be more expensive, which is as far as I'm concerned also one of the things that would improve the game.

If you disagree with my proposal to be calm and rational in this debate, please let me know by PM. It is already becoming very distractive for people who read the RFCE playtesting feedback thread. It is even because of this that the guys who CAN solve bugs, have no time to read the entire thread, and therefore are not solving problems that should have been solved earlier (like Jusos said).

 

[civ_king]

So they basically used espionage against Constantinople to temporarily eliminate the defense bonus?

 

[micbic]

Uncodable
We can however, remove the hill, or increase the Great Bombard bonus.

 

[kochman]

@ Turk...
OK, I found the area you need to change after much gnashing of teeth.

It is in a file called "RiseAndFall.py", which is located in Civ 4> BTS> Mods> RFCEurope> Assets> Pythons

Scroll down until you hit:

if (iCiv == iTurkey):
                        utils.makeUnit(con.iLongbowman, iCiv, tPlot, 3)
                        utils.makeUnit(con.iSettler, iCiv, tPlot, 3)
                        utils.makeUnit(con.iMaceman, iCiv, tPlot, 2)
                        utils.makeUnit(con.iKnight, iCiv, tPlot, 3)
                        utils.makeUnit(con.iHorseArcher, iCiv, tPlot, 2)
                        utils.makeUnit(con.iTrebuchet, iCiv, tPlot, 2)
                        utils.makeUnit(con.iTurkeyGreatBombard, iCiv, tPlot, 1)
                        utils.makeUnit(con.iIslamicMissionary, iCiv, tPlot, 3)

Change the numbers to correspond with what you want, using a text editor (notepad works fine).

I noticed in the file called "Consts.py", I think, there was also a section about "respawn" dates, you could add one for the Arabs...

Of course, instead of changing the code above, you could always just use world builder to insert the units. If the results are favorable, perhaps let the modders know, and they could add the spawning of the additional cannon.
Perhaps the spawning of the Great Bombard should be taken away from the start and added in the 1400s at some time.

Someone else mentioned spies... is there any reason that wouldn't work? It would get rid of the hill or river crossing defense, but the wall defense would be gone... of course, the AI doesn't really do that from what I have seen, in any versions of Civ4.

 

[TheCzech]

Well I have to say, playing as the byzantines felt quite empty. For the most part I was just expanding and researching until the barbs showed up. It became quite fun, then the game crashed.
Anyways, I had all the goals done. I was in the High middle ages by 800 when everybody was still stuck in early well into the 1100s. That seems about right for the CPUs but not for me. The arbs never attacked. only took the ones that flipped. Not until very late did Bulgaria attacked me. Like I said The world felt very empty. That needs to really be changed.
Oh, the leaders too. I hope you will have leader spawns. that would be alot better. Joan of arc seemed to be way too early, charlemagne(he could also be holy roman) or his father would do just fine.. She is a leader in the 1400's. It seems to really be out of place.
Also, the german and venice leaders look very creepy. almost inhuman.

 

[FakeShady]

@The Turk and @Wessel V1

I understand where you guys are coming from (trust me i do), and i understand the importance of Turkish AI being able to capture Constantinople. So though i am self-admitted biased towards Byzantium, i shall narrow down my points.

@The Turk
-Constantinople is still a fortress even at 1453
-I know you're a nice dude, and i know you try to be fair, but your version of the siege of Constantinople is really... not true. Lol. I'm sure many people out there can agree with me
-I'm not your critic. I just think its fair for Byzantium that Turkey not be made stronger and Byzantium not be made weaker, and for history not to be twisted. (i haven't heard your podcast. i dont trust podcasts.)

@Wessel V1
-Constantinople never gets conquered in games not because Turkey is not capable of it, they just dont want to.
-Yes Turkey AI should be able to conquer Constantinople in some games, but to ask that Turkey beat them on spawn... or The Turk's suggestion that they should do it 9/10, thats unfair now isn't it?
-Yes a solution is needed for the "Turkey AI never gets Constantinople" problem, but a solution is also needed for the "Turkey Human player gets to OWN" problem. Yes THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT in my opinion.

Last but not least, though i'm biased towards Byzantium i wish to say i do not gain anything in seeing Byzantium get stronger/weaker. I just think Byzantium in this game is pretty pathetic already, though credit to the creators it used to be worse lol. I am after all a Singaporean Asian dude with slant eyes HAHA, and this is after all just a game

 

[FakeShady]

While I would really like too see the Ottomans taking Constantinople more often (as I hate to see them vassalising to the Ottomans and surviving forever), I do question the Turk's information about the actual siege.

The siege lasted nearly two months (5.4.1453-29.5.1453, 5th because that's when first Ottomans were actually seen from the Theodisian Walls) and Mehmet's troops made several, not too severe though, attempts (1st 18.4.1453) to take the walls suffering heavy losses. There was only ONE really big cannon, which was first placed against the gate of Kaligar next to Blachernai. The big cannon couldn't do much to the walls there, so it was moved in front the gate of Saint Romanos. The turning point was that the attacking gate of Kerkoporta was left unlocked probably by the Venetians (whose relationships with the Ottomans were at that time very good. Loukas Notaras is another possibility, although his troops fought valiantly against the Ottomans) from which the Ottomans were able break through and into the city. The walls were only breached after this.

I have read a 450 page book about the siege.

Thank you! Though i knew quite a bit about the siege too, i never read 450 pages about it lol. But i hope this source lets people out there understand that Constantinople is indeed still a fortress at that point. So please let it remain that way in the game

 

[The Turk]

@Fakeshady

First off, I would like to say that your quite stupid in saying that you "don't trust podcast's", Lars Brownworth is a renowned American Byzantine historian, and by the way, he doesn't only do podcasts, he has also uploaded his Byzantine series on the website I posted, (and he's written a book on the same topic) so please don't give me this crap that you probably think its biased or whatever. Not to mention, I am in favour of strengthening Byzantium against the Bulgarians and I have stated that they should start off with controlling Southern Italy (especially Sicily). So please I am hardly as biased as you are when it comes to this issue, so please instead of trying to have a historical argument with me, please give me one reason why we should allow Byzantium to stay ""uncollapsed", when it ONLY controls ONE city (Constantinople). For game purposes it doesn't make sense, in RFC if a civilization went from having 10 cities to 1, they would surely collapse and be taken over, the same should be here for ANY civilization.

Now back onto more important issues...
To solve this, I will try out Kochman's suggestion (thanks by the way for all your help ). I am quite busy now, but I'll try to test out the cannon spawn idea as soon as possible. But as people have said before, spawning cannons won't help, that's why I think we need to have the Theodosian Walls become obsolete against gunpowder units, @ANY MODDERS:
Is that possible, to have the Theodosian Walls become obsolete after getting gunpowder units?

Thanks for all of your guys help!

PS. Instead of having more useless debates on the seige of Constantinople, please listen to the podcast I posted, as it gives an ubiased and well researched account of the siege, and instead please direct your strengths towards helping us FIX the problem, because any way you look at it, Constantinople needs to collapse to the Ottomans more often.

 

[AOS9001]

A bunch of stuff

I actually went and listened the whole thing, for what it's worth from a sporadic poster in this thread. Very educational, especially Constantine XI's one. That would make a great movie, I bet. Now, onto what I actually have to say:

Constantinople: I agree with previous statements that maybe the AI should be coded to attack the city more often, if possible. And, according to the game, the Theodosian Walls already go obsolete with gunpowder. Whether they do or not, I don't know, because I've crushed the Ottomans every time they spawn. That's just viceroy though. All my monarch games on Byzantium manage at the exact wrong moments.

Bulgaria: On viceroy and monarch, all I've had to do was build a stack of spearman and put them in Adrionople, and there goes Bulgaria. Sometimes I don't conquer them, sometimes I do, but they're really easy to stop, at least on those levels. As long as you avoid that plague which seems to only target you and Rome.

Overall: You can easily fight off those pesky invaders by just spamming a few stacks of units. Yes, this will leave your cities lacking, but that's how I've managed to defeat the Seljuks and Mongols in Anatolia. The manner house+court house stability bonus is very nice with all those cities.

Just my two dollars. Inflation has made cents worthless now.

Edit: If it's the Byzantine AI incapable of fighting of Bulgaria, that's another matter. At least it isn't like the Alpha versions where all you have within a few dozen turns is the core area.

 

[ezzlar]

The Turk: Like JediClement and others have pointed out. Theodosian wall is obsolete against gunpowder. But that doesnt really matter when you think about it. What gunpowder units are strong enough to conquer the city? A fortified city defender longbowman on hills behind river is far stronger than any arqebusier or musketman.

If Constantinopel is made weaker in any way, so does the Ottomans too.

Otherwise I like the islam/christian clash in this game. It should be a challenge!