RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[FakeShady]

I'm getting really sick of all this "Constantinople-Ottoman" thing. I have posted gazillion posts about how to solve the "oh constantinople is too strong because IT ACTUALLY FIGHTS BACK" problem, but there are always people out there expecting Byzantium to surrender their capital once the year 1453 reaches. Its ridiculous.

The thing now is that Constantinople is very well defended, which should be the case. Turkish great bombards have an advantage in bringing down Constantinople's walls, which also should be the case. Turks spawn with ridiculously high number of troops (YES FACE IT), which should not be the case, but its still understandable.

The problem is, the Turkish AI doesnt want to risk taking Constantinople. Even with a lot of units already. So adding more units wouldn't help. What adding more units WILL do, however is make the game even easier for a Turkish human player. And lets admit it, Turks are so overpowered even now that a human Turkish player have a really good time conquering pretty much half of the map.

So the only way to solve this, is to code the Turkish AI to be more aggresive about taking Constantinople, if that can be done. If it couldn't, then adding more Turkish units wouldn't help anyway. I rest my case (how many times have i said that already lol)

 

[AOS9001]

(how many times have i said that already lol)

Not enough times. I agree though, if we can't give the Turks a giant cannon, make them more aggressive in this matter. I concern here is that the AI doesn't take Constantinople enough, and people want to remedy that. Turkey definitely has the ability to take the city, they just don't do it a lot.

 

[wolfigor]

I'm getting really sick of all this "Constantinople-Ottoman" thing. I have posted gazillion posts about how to solve the "oh constantinople is too strong because IT ACTUALLY FIGHTS BACK" problem, but there are always people out there expecting Byzantium to surrender their capital once the year 1453 reaches. Its ridiculous.

The thing now is that Constantinople is very well defended, which should be the case. Turkish great bombards have an advantage in bringing down Constantinople's walls, which also should be the case. Turks spawn with ridiculously high number of troops (YES FACE IT), which should not be the case, but its still understandable.

The problem is, the Turkish AI doesnt want to risk taking Constantinople. Even with a lot of units already. So adding more units wouldn't help. What adding more units WILL do, however is make the game even easier for a Turkish human player. And lets admit it, Turks are so overpowered even now that a human Turkish player have a really good time conquering pretty much half of the map.

So the only way to solve this, is to code the Turkish AI to be more aggresive about taking Constantinople, if that can be done. If it couldn't, then adding more Turkish units wouldn't help anyway. I rest my case (how many times have i said that already lol)

I perfectly agree with FakeShady: this topic has been discussed far too many times and many variations have been implemented.
Just giving more troops to the Ottomans does not solve anything and they already have far too many to start with and far too much production bonuses.

For extra information about my "spawning canons" idea, you need to understand, that the cannons that were used to destroy the walls of Constatinople, were actually Hungarian/German made cannons, that were specially made for the event, paid with Ottoman gold

Again too much scripting and too much determinism.
The idea behind RFC and RFC-E is to build a mechanism that given the right starting conditions will generate, most of the time, a almost historically accurate scenario.
The working word is "most of the times", the mod should not be completely deterministic else where is the fun.
For this reason too much scripted events are bad for the game itself.

If you want to try something, instead of adding arbitrary troops, why don't you try to change something in the Ottoman's leader attitude?

Edit the file "CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml" and search for the Ottoman's leader and modify the attributes:
<iBaseAttackOddsChange>2</iBaseAttackOddsChange>
<iAttackOddsChangeRand>8</iAttackOddsChangeRand>

iBaseAttackOddsChange
Modifies the Attack odd chance, to make an AI think that a battle is more likely to be won, thus having him more likely to attack (without any real effect on the battle). The total modifier is: iBaseAttackOddsChange + rand(0, iAttackOddsChangeRand) + rand(0, iAttackOddsChangeRand): (0 (most leaders); 6 (Ragnar, Napoleon))

iAttackOddsChangeRand
Modifies the Attack odd chance, to make an AI think that a battle is more likely to be won, thus having him more likely to attack (without any real effect on the battle). The total modifier is: iBaseAttackOddsChange + rand(0, iAttackOddsChangeRand) + rand(0, iAttackOddsChangeRand) : (16 for barbarians; 8 for everyone else)


Probably in this way the Ottoman's will be more aggressive (or better "daring") during a war.
They may even use the huge number of units they have to conquer Constantinople.

The best way to test the result is to change the XML and generate as many games as possible (no less than 10) to see what happens: Generate a game with the Swedish, once the game start open world builder, take a screenshot, repeat.

It will be interesting to see what results we may get.

 

[JediClemente]

I insist, it might be better to just make Hadrian's Wall obsolete and remove the hill...

 

[AdrienIer]

I thought it was the Theodisian wall that was in Constantinople, and that Hadrian's wall was in Scotland ?

 

[The Turk]

I think we can combine everyone's ideas, and I love the talk coming from wolfigor, FakeShady and JediClemente, these are all excellent ideas, so why not we do this:

We can keep the hill (or remove it, doesn't really matter), but make the Theodosian Walls obsolete versus gunpowder units (which would mean they wouldn't work against canons). I never said anything about adding TOO many extra units, all I said was that at 1453 or at the Ottoman spawn date, 2-3 more canons should be added to their spawn, to help them. Then we would go and use Wolfigor's scripting idea, and make the Ottomans more aggressive against Constantinople, just like they are in RFC (The Ottomans ALWAYS conquer Constantinople), that way the Ottoman AI does have a chance at conquering Constantinople, which should be the case the majority of the times.

Although I would love to try this new method out for myself, I do not have any modding experience, (except in modding civic bonuses), so if someone could change the files for me, and teach me how to add extra units, I would gladly test it out for everyone.

@AdrienIer
You are correct, the Theodosian Walls correspond to the Walls that we are talking about, which are in modern day Istanbul (Constatinople), and Hadrian's Wall is in Northern England, I have realized that some people have made the mistake, but we are all referring to the same wall

 

[ezzlar]

Well, in that case. REMOVE some troops from the Ottomans so it takes some time for them to build up an army. But also make Theodosian walls obsolete against gunpowder.

That way the Ottomans wont take Constantinopel right away but will eventually as the army grows. And lower their production bonuses.

 

[Jusos2108]

All this could be solved by making the AI as aggressive as in RFC. The lack of AI's aggressiveness is the worst problem of this mod and should be solved before making useless adjustments, like removing the hill beneath Constantinople.

 

[JediClemente]

It's not a question of aggression, the Turkish AI is already capable of conquering a lot of cities. The problem is it thinks taking that city is not worth it. Because it has too many defensive bonuses.

And the Theodosian Wall is already innefective against gunpowder units. That is not the problem...

Really, just remove the hill and make the wonder obsolete (for good, not just against gunpowder) at the discovery of Professional Armies or something like that. And see what happens.

I'd try it if my PC's graphics card wasn't damaged. In the laptop it takes ages to load a late start.

I thought it was the Theodisian wall that was in Constantinople, and that Hadrian's wall was in Scotland ?

Sorry, I don't know how I made that mistake.

 

[FakeShady]

So ok, make the wonder obsolete around 1450, but how you gonna do that?

Anyway, a little history lesson here. Around 1400-1450, Ottomans haave a huge empire that completely surrounds Constantinople, but yet they still chose not to take it (not until 1453, where they got a bit of help), ever wondered why? Yes, because they think taking the city is not worth the risk sounds familiar?

Just a little reminder, the wonder should not be obsolete anytime before 1400. It has to be there to protect it from post-1400 threats, its only historical and fair. Another thing is that there is a river just beside Constantinople that contributes to defensive bonuses as well. It should be kept there too, as its only historical.

Last but not least... may i remind you that with the Turkish spawn size and crazy production bonuses and that untimely 1300 plague, Turkish units easily outnumber Byzantine's 10 to 1 come 1450. Yeah. If you guys dont think thats unfair... then i have nothing else to say LOL

 

[Spooty]

Hi, I'm having some problems getting RFCE started, I've got the latest BTS and I've been sure to unload it in the right spot, but whenever I try to access the game a window pops up saying: "Mods/RFCEurope is an invalid mod directory, ignoring" the game then boots up with the typical BTS backscreen and the option only to play Byzantium or Spain, not that there's much choice as both crash. Any help?

*head-desk* sorry guys, I'm a dumbass and unpacked RFCE into the vanilla Mod section rather than BTS. Working now. Sorry again.

Edit: Okay, it's not working. It works right up to the auto-turn section, except instead of auto turns you get a small box, click OK and the game ends.

 

[Jusos2108]

It's not a question of aggression, the Turkish AI is already capable of conquering a lot of cities. The problem is it thinks taking that city is not worth it. Because it has too many defensive bonuses.

Haven't you read the feedback about this from nearly every player?!? AI has huge stacks of units, but it doesn't use them properly. Turkish AI seems to be the only exception (probably because their production costs are ridiculously low)...

Please read some of the comments before commenting.

 

[The Turk]

So ok, make the wonder obsolete around 1450, but how you gonna do that?

Anyway, a little history lesson here. Around 1400-1450, Ottomans haave a huge empire that completely surrounds Constantinople, but yet they still chose not to take it (not until 1453, where they got a bit of help), ever wondered why? Yes, because they think taking the city is not worth the risk sounds familiar?

Just a little reminder, the wonder should not be obsolete anytime before 1400. It has to be there to protect it from post-1400 threats, its only historical and fair. Another thing is that there is a river just beside Constantinople that contributes to defensive bonuses as well. It should be kept there too, as its only historical.

Last but not least... may i remind you that with the Turkish spawn size and crazy production bonuses and that untimely 1300 plague, Turkish units easily outnumber Byzantine's 10 to 1 come 1450. Yeah. If you guys dont think thats unfair... then i have nothing else to say LOL

Actually....
The reason the Ottomans never took Constantinople until 1453, was because:
1. Their defences were too strong, they needed cannons for that, which they only got later
2. Timur-i-lang (Timur the Lame) invaded Anatolia, capturing and killing the Sultan (actually the story goes, that Timur but the Sultan in a cage for the rest of his life)
3. They feared a reprisal from the West, but once many of the Byzantine ambassador's were dissmissed from European courts, that's when they attacked
4. Why take out one city, when the Ottomans were going on a rampage capturing the Balkans, Constantinople was not the priority for a long time, the capturing of it, was just a symbolic victory.


So back to the problem, I think we should test out everyone's, so why not make the Theodosian Walls obsolete, add 2-3 more canons; we can have them spawn at a later date, and increase AI aggression

I think this will definitely increase the odds, of all of us seeing a Ottoman Istanbul

 

[Wessel V1]

You really don't know the answer to this?
Here it is then... the Turks didn't defeat the Byzantines upon their spawn date. It took them a LONG time.
They had to build up to beat them. You know, develop better guns, then spend time to beat the walls down...
That is why they don't start off with more cannons near Constantinople.


Why do you keep pushing that the Turks should be able to beat the Byzantines from their spawning?

Okay without having read the other posts after this one, I must say that you are seriously trolling now. It is not the Turk who wants this, it is all of us, and you obvioulsly are using arguments mainly against the Turk because he is the Turk. Please hold off your Christian bias and let us evolve the game. Although sometimes things are flavoured in a certain direction, this is a non-religious debate and so you should drop your Christian bias. Nobody has anything against you.

So, to continue, I think the walls should be obsolete against ALL units when Byzantium discovers gunpowder. I believe there won't be so much gain otherwise, although it could be tested.

Now, I'm going to read the other posts. And please, stop using RELIGIOUS BIAS! (for God's sake ^^).

 

[Wessel V1]

Haven't you read the feedback about this from nearly every player?!? AI has huge stacks of units, but it doesn't use them properly. Turkish AI seems to be the only exception (probably because their production costs are ridiculously low)...

Please read some of the comments before commenting.

Nope, actually Jedi is right. Constantinople is too well defended and unit production rates cannot deal with such a seemingly difficult task. The AI is not smart enough to conquer the city without rare occurances (like a plague + crusade). Therefore the walls must be obsolete (I don't know how, XML doesn't do the trick) at some point.

I'd suggest that Constantinople must be easier to conquer and to compensate that gain, units must be quite a bit more expensive. Honestly, it would make a difference.

Having said that, there is no point in discussing this before a new patch is released. I believe this is already fixed, or 3Miro knows what to do. Still, the ideal situation would be to merge the Better AI mod...

 

[AdrienIer]

Thank you Wessel v1 for saying this. I only have a few things to add :

First, we are only trying to make Constantinople conquerable by the AI. We all agree that right now the city is only conquered on rare occurrences by the AI, while for the sake of historical accuracy it should be conquered about 3 out of 4 times by the ottomans (at least), very rarely by the Bulgarians and sometimes by Venice/Genoa.

I'd like to tell Jusos that no one said that the ottomans should beat Constantinople from their spawn date. Only that while the first ottoman troops are used to conquer Anatolia, there is not enough to take Constantinople "by surprise" with only a few troops inside. The Turk was proposing that we should add more troops on spawn, but there is a huge problem with the different bonuses we have given to the Ottomans, it is that the human player (unlike the AI) can make the most of it, which means that while playing the Ottoman civ it is too easy for the human player to conquer everything. We've all witnessed on the other side that the AI is unable to conquer a well defended city.
I remember of Leoreth's RFC DoC where the Phoenicians AI was given a settler in Cartago at a certain date, to force it west. it worked really well since you could often see a Phoenician city in Spain, southern Italy or in Sardinia. We could do the same thing with the Ottoman civ : take off those unbelievable production bonuses, but make canons appear in the capitol around 1400, just for the AI. Then the AI can do whatever it wants with it, depending on the situation.
Anyway, I suppose that since there have been no update for a long time, we should just wait for it because some things might have been done by the mod-makers.

 

[Issos]

As i understand, the main reason why we want to see Istambul/Constantinopole conquered, is historical accuracy, right?

Then, IMO, it shouldn't be weakened. It was one of the greatest fortresses in history, and Turks actually destroyed the Empire due to such "rare occurances" like plague an crusades. That's why we see it captured so rarely in game. It was no small task, and sometimes we just can't preserve historical accuracy AND make AI do what real humans did ages ago.

Further weakening the city will destroy historical accuracy anyway.

Many times in history happened something least expected, or even against logic. All we can do is trying to improve turkish AI IMO.

 

[Jusos2108]

I am taking about the whole mod, not just this Constantinople case...

 

[The Turk]

As i understand, the main reason why we want to see Istambul/Constantinopole conquered, is historical accuracy, right?

Then, IMO, it shouldn't be weakened. It was one of the greatest fortresses in history, and Turks actually destroyed the Empire due to such "rare occurances" like plague an crusades. That's why we see it captured so rarely in game. It was no small task, and sometimes we just can't preserve historical accuracy AND make AI do what real humans did ages ago.

Further weakening the city will destroy historical accuracy anyway.

Many times in history happened something least expected, or even against logic. All we can do is trying to improve turkish AI IMO.

I'm sorry, but you saying that Constantinople was well defended in 1453, is quite a big laugh. The only thing that separated Emperor Constantine XI and the town police force and Mehmed II and his thousands of elite Ghazi warriors was the Theodosian Walls. Once the large cannons were delivered to the Ottomans though, they were able to render the Theodosian Walls obsolete, and quickly overcame the city.

Don't believe me, please listen to Lars Brownworth's Podcast, "12 Byzantine Rulers", listen to the last podcast on Constantine XI, it'll explain to you the dire situation the Empire was already in.

And really guys, I think that once the Ottomans have pretty much conquered all of Greece and Anatolia, Constantinople should just collapse anyways, (unless they are the human player), in the sense that the Ottomans should be able to capture Constantinople pretty much EVERY time, rather than only 3/4 times it should be 9/10 times at the very least.

Now on to the problem of ACTUALLY fixing this problem. Since the human player is already able to conquer Constantinople, we should just give the extra spawning cannons to the Ottomans when they are being played by the AI, and they can spawn in 1400 or 1444, really whatever, but what should also happen is that gunpowder units should render the Theodosian walls useless (just like in real life), just like they do for normal walls and castles.

 

[operafantom]

An observation: while playing with England I traded Slaves for other goods and it obviously made my connections worse with them (Venice, Cordova) immediately (cautious->annoyed, annoyed->furious). Might be a bug.