RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[FakeShady]

Sarcasm does now suit you well. Would you be more amicable to having Anatolia have some salt by Lake Tuz from the beginning so that the Byzantines get a nice bonus as long as they can hold on to it?

Lol chill, its just a joke. Like i said i like to check back once in a while to see how's things. Its just a joke because IMO Byzantium is getting all the crap.

I dont care about whether or not there is salt or Anatolia. It just seems to me that Turkey is getting stronger all the time and no one is doing anything about it

To the Turk: I wasnt making fun of you. Not interested really It was just a joke to make fun of the current situation. Learn some humour guys. Fine, i'll quote someone else's post next time -_- btw i find it amusing you realized there's no salt in Turkey, but failed to realize that Portugal and Poland are too weak to be true. Its like i'm complaining i dont have an Xbox Kinect when the people around me are dying of starvation of something.

Im actually very impressed by beta 6, and am really excited to see how things are gonna turn out

EDIT: i love Austria's music! Someone tell me the name of it? Its soooo familiar but i just couldnt give a name to it...

 

[AbsintheRed]

Actually I already said a couple of times that the Ottomans are overpowered, and I plan to cut back some of their bonuses if they remain this strong after the province system is up and working.
Btw the others were right, your last post was absolutely trolling

 

[yogiebere]

well people are complaining about how strong they are, but you have to be honest, they are extremely powerful for several centuries there. In 3 centuries, they conquered turkey, the balkans, baghdad, arabia, the holy lands, egypt, a lot of north africa, ukraine, caucasus, and hungary. Sure I don't think this should be done with just ridiculous unit growth rate, but being militarily very powerful I have no problem with (economically, wonderly, and scientifically I do, then they just become a superpower)

 

[ezzlar]

If we improve a civ too much it becomes uber in human hands. Turkey is an obvious example of this.

 

[3Miro]

If we improve a civ too much it becomes uber in human hands. Turkey is an obvious example of this.

That is why we now have separate modifiers for the human and AI.

The Ottoman AI is not OP until they can take both Bulgaria and Arabia, right now they can only take Byzantium. I should probably change their UP, the current one really inst working very well.

With the new tech scheme, Portugal will have easier time getting the right techs on time.

Poland is weak, I will get on fixing that as soon as we have working Provinces.

 

[Veshta]

I actually don't think Turkey needs all that much work once the tech rate has been "fixed". The problem they have is that they are way behind on spawn which negates the production bonus from the awesome terrain (Wind POWAH! ) and Islam.
You could borrow the UP from RFC (Assimilation) or maybe even the Babylonian RFC UP (No resistance on conquer), either is infinitely better than the draft while keeping with the feel/theme (in my opinion).

 

[3Miro]

I actually don't think Turkey needs all that much work once the tech rate has been "fixed". The problem they have is that they are way behind on spawn which negates the production bonus from the awesome terrain (Wind POWAH! ) and Islam.
You could borrow the UP from RFC (Assimilation) or maybe even the Babylonian RFC UP (No resistance on conquer), either is infinitely better than the draft while keeping with the feel/theme (in my opinion).

Turkey still takes forever to overtake Bulgaria, they are till "working" on it in the late 1500 (and this is with Bulgaria getting -20 stability points penalty when Turkey spawns).

I was thinking of giving the Ottomans the Persian UP since stability does seem like a problem for them, but I will have to see how it works with the new system. We can also give free units in every conquered Christian city.

 

[The Turk]

That is why we now have separate modifiers for the human and AI.

Exactly! In fact I would encourage you making it harder for the human player to play as the Turks.

The Ottoman AI is not OP until they can take both Bulgaria and Arabia, right now they can only take Byzantium. I should probably change their UP, the current one really inst working very well.

True true, currently the Ottomans need to be able to take Arabia and Bulgaria which they usually are not able to do at the moment. Also Bulgaria is too OP from the last time I checked. They were an insignificant Kingdom on the outskirts of the great Byzantine Civilization, why they continue to be such a threat I have no idea. The AI Bulgaria should be like the Incas or Mali in RFC, weak and ready to surrender. We should see Bulgaria as vassals of the Byzantines more often.

With the new tech scheme, Portugal will have easier time getting the right techs on time.

Out of curiosity what are you planning to do with that?

Poland is weak, I will get on fixing that as soon as we have working Provinces.

Oh cool! I heard that you guys were planning to use Edead's province idea, but I'm happy its following through. If you need any help with provinces in certain areas just contact me at: the.turkciv@gmail.com

PS. Adding salt to Anatolia will make the Byzantines just as powerful as the Turks. And yes just like in every other game I've played including the Ottomans and Byzantines (RFC, DoC, SoI), the Ottomans EVENTUALLY take over the crumbling Byzantine Empire (except if the Byzantine is Human)

 

[3Miro]

True true, currently the Ottomans need to be able to take Arabia and Bulgaria which they usually are not able to do at the moment. Also Bulgaria is too OP from the last time I checked. They were an insignificant Kingdom on the outskirts of the great Byzantine Civilization, why they continue to be such a threat I have no idea. The AI Bulgaria should be like the Incas or Mali in RFC, weak and ready to surrender. We should see Bulgaria as vassals of the Byzantines more often.

Bulgaria was OP because without the Theodosian Walls they could get Constantinople, however, the walls are already back. Turkish AI does overtake Bulgaria, it is just taking too long.

On the same note, why would you think Bulgarian AI should be weak? Basil II was the only Byzantine Emperor to ever win a major war with Bulgaria, for the most time that those existed, the Byzantines were paying annual tax to Bulgaria and the only time Vassalage was involved was when Ivan Asen II vassalized the Latin Empire (holding Constantinople at the time).

At the time of the Turks, Bulgaria should collapse (or be near collapse), as this was the main reason why the Ottomans were not challenged during the conquest.

As for Arabia, the tech rate weakened the Crusades and hence strengthened Arabia to the point where they are currently OP. I am working on a solution.

Out of curiosity what are you planning to do with that?

The more ahistroc time you choose to research a tech, the more the tech would cost. Meaning that it will be very hard to get too far ahead in tech.

Oh cool! I heard that you guys were planning to use Edead's province idea, but I'm happy its following through. If you need any help with provinces in certain areas just contact me at: the.turkciv@gmail.com

PS. Adding salt to Anatolia will make the Byzantines just as powerful as the Turks. And yes just like in every other game I've played including the Ottomans and Byzantines (RFC, DoC, SoI), the Ottomans EVENTUALLY take over the crumbling Byzantine Empire (except if the Byzantine is Human)

We don't use edead's system exactly, just the idea of it (the mechanics work differently). Currently the Ottomans have no trouble conquering Constantinople, they do it too early if anything. Adding salt is a minor issue, compared to the "heated" discussion it seems to spark. We will add it eventually, it is just currently a low priority.

 

[The Turk]

Bulgaria was OP because without the Theodosian Walls they could get Constantinople, however, the walls are already back. Turkish AI does overtake Bulgaria, it is just taking too long.

Ya I guess thats true, but I don't play that long into games usually. But yes, like in SoI some civ's should just collapse at a certain point once they've overreached their historical time limit. But just for the AI of course.

On the same note, why would you think Bulgarian AI should be weak? Basil II was the only Byzantine Emperor to ever win a major war with Bulgaria, for the most time that those existed, the Byzantines were paying annual tax to Bulgaria and the only time Vassalage was involved was when Ivan Asen II vassalized the Latin Empire (holding Constantinople at the time).

Ok, I've studied a lot about the Byzantines and therefore learned a lot about Bulgarian history too. First off the only two considerable Bulgarian incursions into Byzantine lands was first with Khan Krum in 813 and later in the 10th century with Tsar Simeon (who even besieged the city). After that with Basil II the Bulgar Slayer, who subjected the Bulgarians to Byzantine rule for many years. Never again would the Bulgarian Empire rise to power, hence the weak Bulgaria.

At the time of the Turks, Bulgaria should collapse (or be near collapse), as this was the main reason why the Ottomans were not challenged during the conquest.

Yes I agree the Bulgarians should have passed their "civ death rate"

As for Arabia, the tech rate weakened the Crusades and hence strengthened Arabia to the point where they are currently OP. I am working on a solution.

I think the problem with displaying the Middle East as a unified entity is ABSOLUTELY wrong! Just play SoI and you'll see that that is false. There should be the Zengids or Egyptians. Basically to add extra something to challenge the Arab hegemony.

The more ahistroc time you choose to research a tech, the more the tech would cost. Meaning that it will be very hard to get too far ahead in tech.
YES! Thats such a good idea!
Definitely can't wait to see it work!

Adding salt is a minor issue, compared to the "heated" discussion it seems to spark. We will add it eventually, it is just currently a low priority.

Ok seriously if you don't want to add the extra salt just don't, I REALLY don't care. So can we please stop worrying about have a salt resource there.

 

[3Miro]

Ok, I've studied a lot about the Byzantines and therefore learned a lot about Bulgarian history too. First off the only two considerable Bulgarian incursions into Byzantine lands was first with Khan Krum in 813 and later in the 10th century with Tsar Simeon (who even besieged the city). After that with Basil II the Bulgar Slayer, who subjected the Bulgarians to Byzantine rule for many years. Never again would the Bulgarian Empire rise to power, hence the weak Bulgaria.

All of Moesia was Byzantine until Khan Asparuh made his country there in 680AD. From that point on, there was almost constant expansion (Krum and Simeon were just the most notable names). As for the Second Bulgarian Empire, here are some references:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Asen_I_of_Bulgaria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaloyan_of_Bulgaria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Asen_II_of_Bulgaria

(note that during the reign of Kaloyan and Ivan Asen II there was no Byzantium, hence you cannot learn about them from Byzantine textbooks)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Alexander_of_Bulgaria

(the sons of that last one broke Bulgaria into three leading to an easy conquest for the Turks, but Alexander himself was strong)

I think the problem with displaying the Middle East as a unified entity is ABSOLUTELY wrong! Just play SoI and you'll see that that is false. There should be the Zengids or Egyptians. Basically to add extra something to challenge the Arab hegemony.

This is not SoI, we represent Europe here, meaning that nations like Russia, Turkey and the Arabs will have a skewed representation. We don't represent Russia - Kazan wars, we don't represent the Arab-Egyptian wars and so on. We concentrate on the Arab-European wars (Byzantines and Crusaders), we concentrate on the Russian - Swedish - Polish - Lithuanian (as opposed to the conquest of Siberia) wars and we represent the Ottoman conquest of South-Eastern Europe (as opposed to the conquest of Arabia).

 

[kochman]

Turkey only needs to have the POTENTIAL to do these things, Turk.
The point of this mod is to be based somewhat on history, but not a slave to it...

Who would ever want to play Byzantium, for example, if every time the Turks could overrun Constantinople... when it took them how many centuries to do so?
Imagine if that greedy german fellow hadn't made the huge cannon for the Turks? Imagine if the Byzantines had maneuvered differently here or there?

Ottoman power was not a foregone conclusion at the time. The fact that it took as long as it did to stop them is actually based more on their unity in the face of fledgling European nation states being jealous and treacherous to each other... Much like how the Crusaders managed to take Jerusalem... their enemy was divided.

 

[civ_king]

*snip*
The more ahistorical a time you choose to research a tech, the more the tech would cost. Meaning that it will be very hard to get too far ahead in tech.



We don't use edead's system exactly, just the idea of it (the mechanics work differently). Currently the Ottomans have no trouble conquering Constantinople, they do it too early if anything. Adding salt is a minor issue, compared to the "heated" discussion it seems to spark. We will add it eventually, it is just currently a low priority.

Are you suggesting I wont be able to finish the tech tree in 1500?

Also when you implement the province could you make it easy to see if it is core, border or whatever?

Turkey only needs to have the POTENTIAL to do these things, Turk.
The point of this mod is to be based somewhat on history, but not a slave to it...

Who would ever want to play Byzantium, for example, if every time the Turks could overrun Constantinople... when it took them how many centuries to do so?
Imagine if that greedy german fellow hadn't made the huge cannon for the Turks? Imagine if the Byzantines had maneuvered differently here or there?

Ottoman power was not a foregone conclusion at the time. The fact that it took as long as it did to stop them is actually based more on their unity in the face of fledgling European nation states being jealous and treacherous to each other... Much like how the Crusaders managed to take Jerusalem... their enemy was divided.

Yeah, the game wouldn't be fun if I couldn't curbstomp Turkey as the Bulgarians (well, it still would).

 

[3Miro]

Are you suggesting I wont be able to finish the tech tree in 1500?

It will be virtually impossible. Also, making empires that span from the Atlantic to Russia to the Middle-East will also be impossible.

Also when you implement the province could you make it easy to see if it is core, border or whatever?

Already done.

 

[merijn_v1]

Already done.

In my Spanish game, the tiles around my capital are named unstable. I don't think that is supposed to happen.

In the same game, Turkey managed to conquer Byzantium, but Byzantium is still alive, and they are NOT unstable! But don't worry, I think it's a one-time off.

 

[3Miro]

In my Spanish game, the tiles around my capital are named unstable. I don't think that is supposed to happen.

In the same game, Turkey managed to conquer Byzantium, but Byzantium is still alive, and they are NOT unstable! But don't worry, I think it's a one-time off.

That's what happens when you play an svn version of the game. I suspect a Python module or two failed. The new stability isn't in yet anyway, so "Stable" and "Unstable" have no effect yet.

When you play fromt eh svn, can please keep an eye on PythonErr2.log file (in My Games\Beyond the Sword\Logs). Look at the bottom of the file for any errors, so I can fix them. Also, you can turn logging on from CivilizationIV.ini and then keep track of PythonErr.log (this file should be empty at all times).

 

[AbsintheRed]

I will run through all the civs in the ProvinceManager.py tonight
That will probably fix the spanish province bug too
Btw 3Miro, I noticed you use the same key for both Galicia's there. It's xml.iP_Galicia for both the spanish, and the polish-ruthenian one.
This may cause some problems too

 

[3Miro]

I will run through all the civs in the ProvinceManager.py tonight
That will probably fix the spanish province bug too
Btw 3Miro, I noticed you use the same key for both Galicia's there. It's xml.iP_Galicia for both the spanish, and the polish-ruthenian one.
This may cause some problems too

Yes this would cause trouble. The second key would overwrite the first and we will end up without a way to reference one of the provinces. One key for each province and the keys have to be unique.

Good you caught that.

 

[AbsintheRed]

When updating the civs I will also take care of renaming those in the ProvinceManager file
Just post me what's the new name of those keys in the dll
(this is just a key, so IMO xml.iP_SpanishGalicia and xml.iP_PolishGalicia will work, even if they are not accurate namings)

 

[Leoreth]

True true, currently the Ottomans need to be able to take Arabia and Bulgaria which they usually are not able to do at the moment. Also Bulgaria is too OP from the last time I checked. They were an insignificant Kingdom on the outskirts of the great Byzantine Civilization, why they continue to be such a threat I have no idea. The AI Bulgaria should be like the Incas or Mali in RFC, weak and ready to surrender. We should see Bulgaria as vassals of the Byzantines more often.

Just stepping in to second 3Miro's comment on that. Bulgaria was highly developed during their First Empire until roughly 1000 AD, both culturally and militarily. Basil II isn't among the most well known Byzantine Emperors for conquering an "insignificant kingdom", but rather for accomplishing the unlikely feat of uniting the disorganized, so-called "great Byzantine Civilization" and turning a not improbable defeat into a complete victory.

Who would ever want to play Byzantium, for example, if every time the Turks could overrun Constantinople... when it took them how many centuries to do so?
Imagine if that greedy german fellow hadn't made the huge cannon for the Turks? Imagine if the Byzantines had maneuvered differently here or there?

Well, that cannon didn't accomplish much in 1453 other than compensating Mehmed II's "assets"