RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[3Miro]

By the way, this is the 5000th post of the thread, that's quite a lot.

The thread started in 2008, shortly after I started coding the mod. Many people don't realize, but the first idea for the mod is 5 years old (I wish I could find the first thread, it is not on this forum), then we have over 4 years of coding.

Good point for the Catholics. Technically, you still get defensive Crusades even after 1500AD, but this is a small bonus. I have the idea of making the Counter Reformation something better for the Catholics, but I haven't worked out all the details yet.

 

[The Flame8]

On the topic of crusades, is there anyway to bring back the holy land crusades. Spain justs seems to collect units in its cities and never attacks, and when it does Cordoba is too strong to resist. Went until 1600 and not a single holy land crusade was called.

 

[3Miro]

On the topic of crusades, is there anyway to bring back the holy land crusades. Spain justs seems to collect units in its cities and never attacks, and when it does Cordoba is too strong to resist. Went until 1600 and not a single holy land crusade was called.

Crusaders are never "recalled". The Holy Land Crusades are triggered from Muslim or Independent Jerusalem. If the Byzantines manage to get the city, no Crusades would be called.

It is also possible that you have run into a bug.

 

[civ_king]

The thread started in 2008, shortly after I started coding the mod. Many people don't realize, but the first idea for the mod is 5 years old (I wish I could find the first thread, it is not on this forum), then we have over 4 years of coding.

Good point for the Catholics. Technically, you still get defensive Crusades even after 1500AD, but this is a small bonus. I have the idea of making the Counter Reformation something better for the Catholics, but I haven't worked out all the details yet.

One of the teachers at my school has a Master's in European history, shall I inquire about historical ideas?

 

[yogiebere]

One of the teachers at my school has a Master's in European history, shall I inquire about historical ideas?

Please do! There are a variety of things

Perhaps several options:

Inquisitors - 5 religious prosecutors +5 stability
Jesuits - Science and GP bonus
Catholic Bankers - corporation upkeep decreased (10-25%) and gold production increased

 

[Panopticon]

It is possible that Protestantism needs to be disimproved (arms control), rather than Catholicism improved (arms race). Perhaps consider radical ideas like no happiness from Protestantism as a religion, or no diplomatic bonus with co-religious/bigger diplomatic penalty with Catholics.

 

[kochman]

It is possible that Protestantism needs to be disimproved (arms control), rather than Catholicism improved (arms race). Perhaps consider radical ideas like no happiness from Protestantism as a religion, or no diplomatic bonus with co-religious/bigger diplomatic penalty with Catholics.

Protestantism getting no happiness?
It was a revolution that lead to more personal freedom, I think the desire to be free and happier is what led people to risk it ALL against the Catholic Church of the day.

It should be an arms race, based on the fact that it was decades of devastating war... not recoiling into turtle shells... that resulted.

I do like the idea of the Jesuits that Yogi mentioned. I don't think there is any basis for better bank performance as a result of the Reformation/Counter-Reformation...

The most interesting idea is the Inquisitors... it seems somewhat accurate, to shore up the places that remained Catholic, but after a set date (related to the date that Prot is founded)... allowing a time for serious instability/conversion.

 

[civ_king]

Protestantism getting no happiness?
It was a revolution that lead to more personal freedom, I think the desire to be free and happier is what led people to risk it ALL against the Catholic Church of the day.

It should be an arms race, based on the fact that it was decades of devastating war... not recoiling into turtle shells... that resulted.

I do like the idea of the Jesuits that Yogi mentioned. I don't think there is any basis for better bank performance as a result of the Reformation/Counter-Reformation...

The most interesting idea is the Inquisitors... it seems somewhat accurate, to shore up the places that remained Catholic, but after a set date (related to the date that Prot is founded)... allowing a time for serious instability/conversion.

No, Luther, Zwingli and Calvin were fiercely intolerant of others who didn't match their exact beliefs (including each other). For example Calvin ran a police state (makes Stalin look like a libertarian).

Because of this I concur with no happy and reduced bonuses, or we turn Europe into a bloodbath...

 

[3Miro]

No, Luther, Zwingli and Calvin were fiercely intolerant of others who didn't match their exact beliefs (including each other). For example Calvin ran a police state (makes Stalin look like a libertarian).

Because of this I concur with no happy and reduced bonuses, or we turn Europe into a bloodbath...

Does Protestantism give diplomacy bonus beyond the regular "brothers in faith"? I think only Catholicism does that.

A bloodbath is the historically correct outcome of the reformation (ending in a stalemate between the two). Too bad the AI is incompetent.

Catholics getting a special unit with Counter-Reformation is an interesting option. I will think about it. Another option is for the Pope to build Jesuit Monastery, a special building that only the Pope can build (and make it a good one, + science, double production speed of Prosecutors????)

 

[civ_king]

Does Protestantism give diplomacy bonus beyond the regular "brothers in faith"? I think only Catholicism does that.

A bloodbath is the historically correct outcome of the reformation (ending in a stalemate between the two). Too bad the AI is incompetent.

Catholics getting a special unit with Counter-Reformation is an interesting option. I will think about it. Another option is for the Pope to build Jesuit Monastery, a special building that only the Pope can build (and make it a good one, + science, double production speed of Prosecutors????)

Let's think about this
Islam: Cordoba hated Arabia, Arabia hated Turks
Judaism: No civs
Orthodoxy: modeled with Round Church

IMO better way to model this is no ± for shared religion, except for Catholicism (and tone that down too). Outcome=more blood!

Sounds good, how does the Pope decide which civ to build buildings in and also how often.

 

[kochman]

No, Luther, Zwingli and Calvin were fiercely intolerant of others who didn't match their exact beliefs (including each other). For example Calvin ran a police state (makes Stalin look like a libertarian).

Because of this I concur with no happy and reduced bonuses, or we turn Europe into a bloodbath...

Nonsense...
First, Stalin killed over 33 million people and completely oppressed religion. Comparing Calvin to that is completely absurd.

Second, The leaders you mentioned... they had their ideas, but were not "fiercely" intolerant. Can you site me examples of violence between them? I know that they often disagreed about how to achieve what they wanted, but it wasn't like the armed conflict the Catholics resorted to.

 

[kochman]

IMO better way to model this is no ± for shared religion, except for Catholicism (and tone that down too). Outcome=more blood!

This may be a good idea...
Except, the Swedes definitely came down to help their brothers in the faith.

Basically, in these days, most groups hated mosts groups, and they squabbled a lot. Whatever can be done to increase the amount of war in this mod, I think that is a good thing. Making diplomacy harder could very well be one of those things.

 

[3Miro]

Let's think about this
Islam: Cordoba hated Arabia, Arabia hated Turks
Judaism: No civs
Orthodoxy: modeled with Round Church

IMO better way to model this is no ± for shared religion, except for Catholicism (and tone that down too). Outcome=more blood!

Sounds good, how does the Pope decide which civ to build buildings in and also how often.

Only Catholics and non-Round Church Orthodox would get diplo benefits form same religion? This actually makes sense.

The way buildings are build by the Pope is semi-random. Every X turns the Pope decides to build a building and/or gift gold. Then the Pope picks among the Catholic players in a weighted random manner considering Faith Points and Diplomatic Relations with the Pope. This would be even better after the Reformations since there would be fewer Catholic players left.

 

[civ_king]

Nonsense...
First, Stalin killed over 33 million people and completely oppressed religion. Comparing Calvin to that is completely absurd.

Second, The leaders you mentioned... they had their ideas, but were not "fiercely" intolerant. Can you site me examples of violence between them? I know that they often disagreed about how to achieve what they wanted, but it wasn't like the armed conflict the Catholics resorted to.

When I said "makes Stalin look like a libertarian" I was clearly using hyperbole, but Calvin seriously ran a police state, do so research. Protestants did "silence" dissenting views...

Only Catholics and non-Round Church Orthodox would get diplo benefits form same religion? This actually makes sense.

The way buildings are build by the Pope is semi-random. Every X turns the Pope decides to build a building and/or gift gold. Then the Pope picks among the Catholic players in a weighted random manner considering Faith Points and Diplomatic Relations with the Pope. This would be even better after the Reformations since there would be fewer Catholic players left.

Is there a way to make the frequency increase based on total Catholic faith points so fanatics would get plenty of boons by the Pope?

 

[merijn_v1]

The thread started in 2008, shortly after I started coding the mod. Many people don't realize, but the first idea for the mod is 5 years old (I wish I could find the first thread, it is not on this forum), then we have over 4 years of coding.

Is it one of these?

http://rhye.civfanatics.net/wiki/index.php?title=Rhye's_and_Fall_of_Civilization:_Europe#Old_Threads

 

[kochman]

When I said "makes Stalin look like a libertarian" I was clearly using hyperbole, but Calvin seriously ran a police state, do so research. Protestants did "silence" dissenting views...

So what if he ran a police state.
So, your "fiercely intolerant" is now a general "Protestants did 'silence' dissenting views". Great evidence, nice back paddling...

In other words... you have no real clue.

 

[Allan79]

I have just completed my first domination victory ever

I played the Hungarians and I have a few observations.(beta9)

the Venetians seems to collapse quite easily while playing the Hungarians. They expand fine along the Adriatic but not long after they collapse. This has happened to me in 2 out of 2. It makes it bit too easy to pick up there cities.

When the Ottomans spawn they seem to be quite unstable at the beginning. This is fairly easy to exploited. Just attack and conquer two cities and they collapse. It shouldn't be that easy.

The barbarian(mongols) are too weak in there attack on Hungary. I think they spawned 2*4 keshiks near my border but they never attacked. Instead they ran down to the Bulgarians and attacked them instead. There is no fun in that!

Spain is by far the most powerful and technology advanced civ now. They are way better than france or england. they nearly complete all of the colonies. I got a few after stroke a deal with the spanish for one of there aa's. (that was expensive actually, thats good) if I hadn't done that I guess they would have completed them all. Well England got the last 3 but is far too little imo.

Burgundy are way too stable. They were equal the French whom I think has become too weak now. they fought over Nancy for hundreds of years with the borders only chancing very little.

The dutch didnt make impact on the game. they were around for about 100 years and then they were conqured by germany and burgundy.

When the cordoban respawned in north africa they turned catholic. There were no muslims in any of there cities.

And non of the atlantic island were settled. Maybe thats because spain conpured portugal. but wasnt until 1680.

 

[The Turk]

As for the equating happiness with Protestanism, isen't it true that the Protestant Reformation took away some of the holidays that Catholics had enjoyed. I remember reading espeically about the English Reformation (yes I know this does not involve Calvin ), and how Oliver Cromwell forbade parties, holidays and makeup and demanded modesty of women, while when Charles II (the Catholic King) returned to the throne, he once again allowed for these things to return, making the people happier.
The flip side to this would be Florence's Catholic preacher Savoranola, who destroyed many pieces of "non Christian" artwork and demanded a return to a simpler life style. Although the flip to this, was that the Catholic Church in Rome ended up burning him on the stake....
Well, at least thats my two cents, on the happiness issue. I personnaly don't think you can equate Catholicism or Protestantism with happiness though, each had their own ups and downs at any given point in time.
Also the fact that the Protestants should get a science boost is a bit absurd as well, considering that Luther, among other church reformers (Calvin, Zwingli etc.), were strongly against the helio-centric theory and later on evolution amongst other advances as well. BUT... I think what should be praised is the Protestant Work Ethic, something which scholars have equated to have lifted Europe out of obscurity and would later be a large driving force behind the rise of the United States, therefore a production and gold bonus should be given to the Protestants, while the Catholic's in the late game should get Jesuits, and better purging abilities, perhaps through Jesuits as well, (Spanish inquisition in Spain and Louis XIV attempts to remove the Huguenots from France).

Also, do the crusades end in 1500? It seems fairly late, I would recommend moving it down to 1300-1400, with 1400 being the latest. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also I agree with the fact that the Muslims should not get a friendly bonus with each other, when in fact the Turks, Arabs, Cordobans hated each other (and any Cordoba collapses by the time the Turks get here, removing any potential problem), but most assuredly the Cordobans hate the Abbasid Arabians, thats for certain. And I don't know if Catholic Europe was so "united" as the diplomatic bonus between them would give them the appearance to be. As more wars would be fun to watch

EDIT: That reminds me, Burgundy stays in the game for WAYY too long, and towards the end of their historical lifespan, they should begin to crumble away with successive stability hits like the Cordobans, to allow for France and Germany to expand in that direction. Also it would create some real and actually interesting battles between the French and Germans on the Rhine/Rhone valley

 

[3Miro]

Happiness is not just family holidays. Happiness is also control over the people, religion, military units and so on. All religion gives happiness.

Early Protestants were no more scientifically advanced than everyone else, however, later protestant nations like England, Dutch and Prussia were considerably more advanced than say Spain. In the same way, Protestant scientific bonus takes some time to kick in (take a while to generate Faith Points and for the scientific bonus to accumulate to a significant difference).

There are 2 types of Crusades. Defensive Crusaded persist throughout the entire game. Crusades for the Holy Land happen at most 5 times, no earlier than 1060AD and no later than the founding date for Protestantism. Note that a Crusade for the Holy Land can happen in 1400+ only if a Catholic nation has held Jerusalem for a significant period of time.

We are th inking about Burgundy.

 

[ezzlar]

It doesnt really take that long time to accumulate faith bonus. If you are catholic there is not so much use in generating saints. Save them and once you change to protestantism use them for saint bonus for faith points.