RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[dragodon64]

How about just drop the forest bonus for archers on defense? Because the only units that don't get a bonus in forest (other than archers if there was this new rule) are cavalary, and I would feel weird giving cavalry a bonus on defense in forest.

All cavalry and siege units (except a few UUs) ignore all terrain boni. This will just reduce the bonus that archery units get from forests from 50% to 25%. Giving them an inbuilt "reverse woodsman" effect is much easier than telling forests to only benefit certain troop types.

I would have suggested -50%, thus negating the effect of forests altogether for archers, but that may be too drastic.

 

[Wessel V1]

I think it's all about the level of abstraction. If we regard Archers as a plain archer battalion, without any other types of units, it can be justified that they have a disadvantaged in forests. However I there are some things to think about:

1. What does a tile need to be seen as a forest or a woodland? Each tile represent an area of more than 100 (probably over 1000, it's not about this number but you get what I mean) square miles, so the archers might search for a place with less dense forest to defend themselves. The archers deal with the inconveniences of the forest by going elsewhere with less trees.
2. Trained archers can shoot quick and precise, only in a very dense forest this becomes a serious disadvantage over heavy melee units. Forests, especially those without paths, are tougher to cross than flatlands, hence the mountain bike routes that are located in forests. Equipment doesn't help those troops either.
3. What should be called an archery unit? 100 Archers? 1000 Archers? 1000 archers and 500 other units? Those other units don't have the disadvantage achers have, should they lose strength?

I think this is why Firaxis decided to give archers defense bonuses in forests. Cavalry and Siege units lose much of their strength, Archery units not so much (I think). I think it is not worth the trouble to create an anti-woodsman bonus. Archery units cannot get a woodsman promotion whereas Melee units can, I think that is enough.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I think this is why Firaxis decided to give archers defense bonuses in forests. Cavalry and Siege units lose much of their strength, Archery units not so much (I think). I think it is not worth the trouble to create an anti-woodsman bonus. Archery units cannot get a woodsman promotion whereas Melee units can, I think that is enough.

I'm with Wessel on this
Archery units don't necessary have disadvatage in forests, at least not against all unit types

 

[Sian]

futhermore it can be expected that archers would use some ammount of guerilla fighting hiding themselves in treetops/shelters, being a massive pain to rout

 

[ezzlar]

I just saw a screen shot of the ordinary Rhyes, for stability and great general appearance there are small symbols of a balance and the great general head. Copy/paste?

 

[merijn_v1]

I just saw a screen shot of the ordinary Rhyes, for stability and great general appearance there are small symbols of a balance and the great general head. Copy/paste?

I don't know what you mean by it. Can you post a link to the screenshot?

 

[ezzlar]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=317527&page=153

Post by Jusos #3054

 

[merijn_v1]

IIRC, we already have the stability shown that we, along with some other things. I don't know if the GP symbol and the GG symbol are also shown.

 

[ezzlar]

Yepp, but not the symbol. That´s what I said

 

[3Miro]

futhermore it can be expected that archers would use some ammount of guerilla fighting hiding themselves in treetops/shelters, being a massive pain to rout

+1.

I think there was a large battle in the 100 year war between French Knights and English Longbowman that took place in a forest and the English won big time.

 

[ezzlar]

In the SVN the seljuk spawns consisted of the usual cavalry but also crossbowmen and guisarmiers. Not nearly as difficult as the 13 strenght cavalry. And seljuks are much easier then keshiks (1 first strike and light cavalry).

Teutonic knights and Knight Templars shouldnt be allowed as mercenaries!

 

[3Miro]

In the SVN the seljuk spawns consisted of the usual cavalry but also crossbowmen and guisarmiers. Not nearly as difficult as the 13 strenght cavalry. And seljuks are much easier then keshiks (1 first strike and light cavalry).

Those are supposed to defend the cities once the Cavalry captures them. Otherwise it is too easy to retake the captured cities.

Teutonic knights and Knight Templars shouldnt be allowed as mercenaries!

They are available as Mercs in the Jerusalem area for the time period of the Crusades. They can be hired by Catholics only.

 

[ezzlar]

I see, both of them sound reasonable. Except that as a human Byzantium there wont be any captured cities to defend

Edit: Playing as Ottomans. Conquering Anatolia is really slow since I have to defend against numerous spawns of Keshiks. Not a trace of Bulgaria except some keshik cities.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I see, both of them sound reasonable. Except that as a human Byzantium there wont be any captured cities to defend

Yeah, we should keep both the way it is now
I think I will add a few more Seljuk Cavalry against the human player though

 

[ezzlar]

I have noticed one thing in my recent game:

- Crusade that captures Jerusalem and nearby cities
- Arabia collapses
- Jerusalem revolts, goes independent
- New crusade, new catholic civ, captures Jerusalem and a few other cities
- Jerusalem revolts etc

This is leading to large armies and several different civs holding cities in the holy land. And they keep them (unless the player drives them out)!

 

[Michael Vick]

This is not necessarily bad or ahistorical.

 

[ezzlar]

In game play terms it means that the holy lands consist of europeans and keshiks. There is no islamic pressure.

 

[Sian]

maybe letting Independents flip Barbarian cities in most of Levant? ... and then handwaving it as small semiindependent muslim citystates

 

[3Miro]

In game play terms it means that the holy lands consist of europeans and keshiks. There is no islamic pressure.

All Indy cities in the area are Islamic and the Jerusalem revolts are Islamic too (Jerusalem wouldn't revolt against a Muslim player). There is just a general lack of strong Muslim player, but this isn't too ahistoric (Arabia does respawn once, they just collapse back again). Historically the Crusaders were around the area until 1291 and then it isn't long before the Ottomans come and take over the entire region.

 

[Daffy]

wall of text so spoiler :

Spoiler :

Since I read some nice gampeplay reviews, I figured I'd give it a try so I decided to summarize a game with Portugal that seems to be turning into a UHV victory. I have to add that it took about 15-20 attempts with 3-4 different starts. The thing is that you have 2 potentially very dangerous neighbors, Cordoba and Spain.


In most cases Spain can knock Cordoba out of the game, but this shouldn't happen too early, nor too late in the game. If it happens too early, you get into more trouble with Spain since pleasing them isn't always easy. If Cordoba survives and holds it's ground you're most likely in for a fight. Usually at sea and land. Cordoba can build ships fast, and that medic promotion is annoying too
Their land attack usually are just pillaging runs with berbers and such, but you constanty have to rebuild improvements and protect your workers. The real problem starts when Spain decides that you're next after finishing Cordoba, or that they can handle smashing Portugal and then Cordoba.
But well.. to the game


Decent start with 4 extra workers and the pig and horse already improved. Guessing Cordoba had a city there. At war with Cordoba, contact with Spain. Indie Porto at size 8. Founded Lisboa on the spot and OB with the Pope and Spain after switching to catholicism. Founded Faro asap 1W of the wheat in reach of the fish.(took 7-8 turns in Porto)
It was improtant to gift Spain gold on turn 1 too, so that relations turn to friendly. Afterward several 'small' payments of 50-100 gold every 10+ turns or so. Whenever the diplomatic relations balance went down to +1 I gifted gold. Keeping Spain at the very least pleased, aiming for friendly. They usually get whatever they want from me money, resources(time limited, can cancel after 10 turns), war with someone etc.
Well after some turns of building and being quite passive in a war against Cordoba they collapsed and were swallowed by Spain. To my dismay Spain also captured Tanger/Ceuta. But luck was on my side and I received a great merchant in Porto in time to found the Hanseatic League in Lisboa(1272). I spread it to A Coruna, Porto, Faro, Sevilla, Ceuta and later Casablanca and Rabat. I think Spain spread it a bit further. I'm not sure but I think now in 1620 I'm going through the 4th plague. 1st shortly after founding the Hanse, 2nd while building La Lanterna in Porto (1419), 3rd while building Torre de Belem (1506) and now again, but Spain isn't a problem anymore. They collapsed sometime around the 15th century after DOW France and losing Barcelona, Valencia, Pamplona and maybe more. On the other hand Spain had settled all the islands in the SW atlantic (Canaries?) by 1500. My 4th and 5th cities were Casablanca and Rabat both founded 1494. The 3 other req. island cities are waiting to be built in 1620 but I'm waiting due to the plague.

Summary:
Most of the the game is peaceful building and exploring while attending to the military and diplomacy so that nobody attacks. Just build buildings/army get hit by the plague, grow back to size building armies, get hit by the plague and so forth. From around 1300-1500 I was busy doing that. You usually come out of each plague stronger that the previous plague so at some point expansion is possible. Then NA comes into play. It may be possible to settle NA earlier but Spain definately likes Ceuta and might DOW if you are concidered weak enough or just for kicks, I'm not quite sure about that. The AI has become quite aggressive imo in Beta 13. Portugal, Genua and Austria all have been giving me a hard time.

One comment on the UHV's they are all quite close together do that achieving 2 of 3 and getting the Golden Age doesn't really help/matter. In my game I could get the GA now in 1620 during the plague or wait for it to end and then click away the last turns with a GA until 1640 pops hoping that nobody attacks.
Another comment on the UU, the Knights of Avis or somewhat well.. I don't usually build them.
In regular RFC Portugals UU was the carrack as opposed to the caravel capable of transporting troops(even if only 2 per ship). Very nice for the required expansion.
I know that you are somewhat opposed to another naval UU but something like that, allowing Portugal to bypass Tanger/Ceuta to colonize the islands a bit earlier would be really nice imo. Basicly a carrack UU for Portugal that can carry 1-2 units(can travel ocean) available with Shipbuilding. Or carracks could genarally be able to carry troops, galleons would still be useful for larger armies.

Score:
1st most likely Ottomans, but no contact
1st France 1975
2nd Germany 1838
3rd Portugal 1641
4th Muscovy 1427
5th England 1377

General Observations in 1620:
I could have founded Protestantism around 1494 it got founded in 1580 in Germany.
Medici Banks founded in Lithuania.
France has the entire 'Holy Land' Damascus, Tyre, Jerusalem, Alexandria etc.and half of Iberia
Germany stretches from the Rhein to 'Tilsit' somewhere around the Memel. Poland vassalized to them with 2 cities left. Austria is gone with Wien occupied by Hungary the rest owned by Germany.
Knights Hospitaller founded by Kiev owned by Muscovy. Templar by Norse, Teutonic by France.
Genoa and Venice both collapsed, Venice usually collapses and Genoa pretends to be an empire.
Ottomans are huge as usual, luckily I'm far away from them.


Colonies(chronological order):
Gold Coast, Cuba, Panama, Hispanola, Aztec/Inca Conq, East Africa built either in Lisboa, Porto or Faro

Wonders/Corporations:
Hanseatic League(Lisboa 1272), La Lanterna(Porto 1419), Torre de Belem(Lisboa 1506), Magellans Voyage(Porto 1510), The Alhambra(Porto 1530), Gardens of Al Andalus(Lisboa 1538), Paco da Ribeira(Lisboa 1560)

Wonders under construction(1620):
Palazzo San Giorgio, Palacio del Escorial, Chateau de Fontainebleau in Lisboa (should all finish)
Sistine Chapel in Faro
Leonardos Inventions in Porto


Guidelines (can vary):

Buildings:
After preferrably 1 turn to push the cultural borders Lisboa and Porto build work boats to work the crab. Then the priority is Smokehouse, Manor House, Market, Feitoria, Church/Brewery etc.
The nice thing about producing culture for the 1st expansion is that it only takes 1 turn if you produce >6 culture (not sure about the exaxt number, also depends on the civ, but you can end up with 9.75 culture after 1 turn) the second part is that the following building/unit starts with some/all of the production from running culture. I don't know if it's a feature or bug, but prefer to think of it as feature

Techs:
First Tech I go for is 'Plate Armor' that way you can chop down those woods and further improve you cities (and speed up production in the process). After that main goal is Clockmaking, Bureaucracy, Monument Building. Clockmaking should be done around 1250-1270 so that founding the Hanseatic League is possible. Having switched to Bureaucracy & Org. Religion earlier helps towards this goal. After that Apprenticeship & Guilds then Limited Monarchy & Imperialism. Gunpowder has a high priority.
But you have to pretty much research/trade everything except Patronage, Divine Right, Replacable Parts which can be delayed quite a while. Trading techs is essential, its always nice to give the Pope someting old like Blast Furnace and get Bureaucracy in return. Getting to know other civs is important anyway not just for tech trading, also resource trading.

Resources:
You have 3 resources soon available that can be traded. Wine, pig & crab. I usually try to get in contact with England quickly so that I can get them to trade barley for wine(hoping they hold on to Scotland). They can also provide fish and sheep. The Pig is usually traded against cow from France, Hungary or Germany. The crab is usully traded depending on what is available. Later in the game I try to trade with weaker/far away civs so that I don't support expansionist powerhouses like France/Spain/Germany too much.
The workers prioritize on improving resources and then farms and mines chopping down everything in their path except for the forests down by Faro/Lisboa with the honey.
I like to keep that area as a 'defensive line' against whoever has Sevilla. If the forest on the east bank of the river hasn't been chopped down I build a lumbermill there and a watermill on the west bank to increase production for Faro. Most mines are later replaced by windmills when Apprenticeship/Guilds and/or Replacable Parts come into play.
The horse, iron in Morocco can also be traded against usually more than 1 resource.
Getting the gold and sheep from Tanger/Ceuta is nice but not necessary.


Military:
It is essential to have a strong defensive force due to the aggressive nature of Portugals neigbors.
I start to feel 'safe' with about 6+ units stationed in a city, more in the capitol. Having a few cavalry units standing by is also useful. A few ships should also stick around to defend against barb pirates and anyone else wanting to pillage your fishing boats.