RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[ezzlar]

I suggest making theocracy unstable with feudal law since the independent lords undermine the ruling clergy. But more in game play terms, restrict the player from using that combo of unit production bonuses.

 

[Kartoffelvampir]

Some feedback for the Kievan Rus:

First, Kharkov was founded in 1654. By Moscowites. So, it probably should be replaced by another City, maybe Chernigov or Pereyaslavl.

Second, i think the goal "Rulers of the Northern Black Sea" is odd, considering that the Rus never ruled the Nothern Black Sea:

Spoiler :

Calling it "prince of the Rus" and change the Provinces to more Northeastern ones would historically more fitting, imho. Of course, that can make the Food-Goal pretty difficult.

(It seems like someone in the early stages of the mod thought of the Kievan Rus as an early Ukraine, which isn't true - the Rus was as much a predecessor to modern Russia and White Russia as to modern Ukraine.)

 

[AbsintheRed]

Yeah, you are probably right
I'm not against changing that UHV to something more exciting

 

[3Miro]

Some feedback for the Kievan Rus:

First, Kharkov was founded in 1654. By Moscowites. So, it probably should be replaced by another City, maybe Chernigov or Pereyaslavl.

Second, i think the goal "Rulers of the Northern Black Sea" is odd, considering that the Rus never ruled the Nothern Black Sea:

Spoiler :

Calling it "prince of the Rus" and change the Provinces to more Northeastern ones would historically more fitting, imho. Of course, that can make the Food-Goal pretty difficult.

(It seems like someone in the early stages of the mod thought of the Kievan Rus as an early Ukraine, which isn't true - the Rus was as much a predecessor to modern Russia and White Russia as to modern Ukraine.)

I thought Kiev did eventually establish control over Crimea and the north coast of the Black sea, but I can't get a map from right before the Mongol invasion.

Can you give us a list of the provinces that you think would be accurate, you can hold Ctrl and hover over the map to see all the provinces.

 

[Tigranes]

I thought Kiev did eventually establish control over Crimea and the north coast of the Black sea, but I can't get a map from right before the Mongol invasion.

I am sorry for the size of the map, but I find it quite accurate and informative:

Spoiler :

Can you give us a list of the provinces that you think would be accurate, you can hold Ctrl and hover over the map to see all the provinces.

Historical Kievan Rus' Provinces (Principalities) before the Mongol invasion are: Kiev, Podolia, Pereyaslavl (+Sloboda, but it is better to merge this province with Pereyaslavl), Chernigov, Volhinya, Minsk, Polotsk, Smolensk, Moscow, Murom, Rostov, Novgorod, Vologda and (Karelia -- may be not).

Nizhni Novgorod really needs to be renamed into Povolzhye or Volga Region, or Volga Bulgaria. Would be nice to see Islam in Bulgar.


If you rather go with the earlier Yaroslav Rus' (before the partitions) we better go with this map:

Spoiler :

So no Vologda. One can say -- but look, there is also a Moldavia!, however map is a little inaccurate there -- Steppe and lower Dnestr, Dnepr and Don was never controlled or populated by Kievans (almost no cities there). Barbarian nomads should come from south.

As for the cities I really recommend starting at Kiev but flipping Smolensk (one of the oldest cities in the region) and Novgorod. Smolensk was mentioned in the story of founding Kievan Rus' -- Novgorod was the pre-Kievan Rus' from where Oleg launched an expedition to conquer Kiev, making it his capital and taking over the Smolensk along the way. Settling 12-13 provinces is a grand task (one needs to fight barbarians all the time) -- so extra Novgorod will help. Keep it unstable to encourage historical separation of Novgorod into the separate (Indy) Merchant Republic later in the game.

This will also solve a problem of Moscow existing with Kievan Rus in many games. When Moscow spawns and flips many Kievan provinces they will collapse much more often.

And finally Byzantium could use Khersones in Crimea -- after all that city helped Russians to become Orthodox (Vladimir was considering Islam as well but did not like no wine drinking part ) Unfortunately, it can make Genoan UHV harder....

 

[Kartoffelvampir]

Thanks Tigranes, that pretty much says it all

Moscow could be left, because it wasn't a principality before the Mongols.

Also, Volhinya maybe should get expanded - mostly for gameplay reasons. That place is mostly swamp, and as Kiev you likely had to found a city in there.

 

[pku_dwest]

The game is too easy.
AIs can not manage their workers well and can not train enough military units.

 

[Tigranes]

Thanks Tigranes, that pretty much says it all

Moscow could be left, because it wasn't a principality before the Mongols.

Actually, before the Mongol invasion Moscow represents Vladimir-Suzdal. How do you imagine pre-Mongol Rus' without Vladimir?

Anyway, I think that settling 13 provinces on time can prove to be impossible, unless we add some preplaced cities -- like Beloozero(862), which was one of five original Russian towns (the other being Ladoga, Novgorod, Polotsk, and Rostov).

 

[3Miro]

Actually, before the Mongol invasion Moscow represents Vladimir-Suzdal. How do you imagine pre-Mongol Rus' without Vladimir?

Anyway, I think that settling 13 provinces on time can prove to be impossible, unless we add some preplaced cities -- like Beloozero(862), which was one of five original Russian towns (the other being Ladoga, Novgorod, Polotsk, and Rostov).

13 provinces is too much, we should make the number something more manageable, but those are good reference point.

I am against including Novgorod in the Kiev's spawn. The real history of Europe is hard to capture in the limited game dynamics that we have and some compromises should be made. I want to leave Novgorod as independent and available for the Norse and Kiev to conquer.

 

[ezzlar]

Can somebody make sticky threads of:

Feedback thread
Bug thread
UHV thread

Other modmod forums have it. That should help new players find the correct threads.

Edit: RFCE++ also deserves a sticky!

 

[AbsintheRed]

First, Kharkov was founded in 1654. By Moscowites. So, it probably should be replaced by another City, maybe Chernigov or Pereyaslavl.

I already removed Kharkov, and would like to add another city in the close area which can flip to them
On the other hand, both Pereyaslavl and Chernigov are too close IMO
Any other ideas?

EDIT: Added Kursk for now

 

[Tigranes]

I already removed Kharkov, and would like to add another city in the close area which can flip to them
On the other hand, both Pereyaslavl and Chernigov are too close IMO
Any other ideas?

EDIT: Added Kursk for now

Kursk is ok even though Kievans need 2 cities from flip. I just mentioned below that oldest Russian towns were Beloozero, Ladoga, Novgorod, Polotsk, and Rostov. Personally I really favor Smolensk though -- it plays very important and symbolic role for Eastern Slavs and became known around the time when Kievan Rus was established. It is halfway between Novgorod and Kiev and consistent with the idea that Kievans should establish themselves towards the North, not South.

I suggest Smolensk and Rostov.

 

[3Miro]

Can somebody make sticky threads of:

Feedback thread
Bug thread
UHV thread

Other modmod forums have it. That should help new players find the correct threads.

Edit: RFCE++ also deserves a sticky!

None of the devs of the mod have the authority to moderate the threads, thus while we do have separate threads, there is no way to enforce any rules should people decide to diverge on a tangent discussion. Furthermore, some concepts are hard to classify, like a bug with the UHV or feedback on how easy/hard an UHV is. It would have been nice to have things sorted, but they are not. I have started working on an official guide for the 1.0 release, while ugly, it is completely current and contains most of the useful information.

There is no point in making an RFCE++ sticky, in about a month, RFCE++ will merge with RFCE, then there will be only one mod (or two versions of the same mod, RFCE 1.0 and RFCE development going into 2.0)

 

[AbsintheRed]

Kursk is ok even though Kievans need 2 cities from flip. I just mentioned below that oldest Russian towns were Beloozero, Ladoga, Novgorod, Polotsk, and Rostov. Personally I really favor Smolensk though -- it plays very important and symbolic role for Eastern Slavs and became known around the time when Kievan Rus was established. It is halfway between Novgorod and Kiev and consistent with the idea that Kievans should establish themselves towards the North, not South.

I suggest Smolensk and Rostov.

Smolensk and Rostov are way too north for the Kievan flip zone
I think I won't even flip Kursk to them, just leave it as a close and easily conquerable city
Anyway, they now have Minsk, Smolensk and Polotsk on the settler and war maps, so the core area looks pretty nice between these cities and Kiev and Kursk
On the new UHV I agree with 3Miro: Novgorod, Rostov and the other N or NE territories shouldn't even be included

 

[ezzlar]

I get the feeling that science in the game around 1400 converges among all the civs. Teching is about 10 turns no matter how small you are and the civs are all researching basically the same things. Shouldnt there be more diversity? Dont know what is causing this, it must be the beelining penalty?

Maybe a system where the total number of techs determine your science speed? That means it would be possible to beeline something but then teching would slow down as the number of techs you have increase.

 

[ezzlar]

None of the devs of the mod have the authority to moderate the threads, thus while we do have separate threads, there is no way to enforce any rules should people decide to diverge on a tangent discussion. Furthermore, some concepts are hard to classify, like a bug with the UHV or feedback on how easy/hard an UHV is. It would have been nice to have things sorted, but they are not. I have started working on an official guide for the 1.0 release, while ugly, it is completely current and contains most of the useful information.

There is no point in making an RFCE++ sticky, in about a month, RFCE++ will merge with RFCE, then there will be only one mod (or two versions of the same mod, RFCE 1.0 and RFCE development going into 2.0)

The point isnt to force anybody. But as new to the mod you might appreciate some guidance, your question might already have been answered in the correct thread if you see it. You are still free to post in any thread you like. I could ask a mod unless we should just leave it as it is?

 

[AbsintheRed]

The point isnt to force anybody. But as new to the mod you might appreciate some guidance, your question might already have been answered in the correct thread if you see it. You are still free to post in any thread you like. I could ask a mod unless we should just leave it as it is?

I think the main reason 3Miro doesn't want this is because the main thread we preferred to use is changing with each version (Beta 13, Beta 12, etc)
I don't mind at all if a few more threads are stickied, but don't really see the point either
Maybe the playtesting feedback thread, and the small bugs/fixes thread. Or we should have a new one for 1.0?

 

[Sian]

i believe its healthly to get new threads every now and again, so people knows that the old threads are old and out of date, and not being intimidated by the size of them, cause what would happen if you posted a suggestion made before in same thread

 

[ezzlar]

In my recent game I built a lot of religious buildings before I converted to the religion in question. But faith points are only counted when you build stuff, not owning them. Just like stability buildings.

But when it comes to faith points, shouldnt owning rather than building them count? Since I cant raze my own buildings I can never get faith for already built structures.

 

[ezzlar]

I think the main reason 3Miro doesn't want this is because the main thread we preferred to use is changing with each version (Beta 13, Beta 12, etc)
I don't mind at all if a few more threads are stickied, but don't really see the point either
Maybe the playtesting feedback thread, and the small bugs/fixes thread. Or we should have a new one for 1.0?

And thats why I didnt mention the "beta X" thread in my suggestion above. But we can drop it, no problem. But it seems common in many other forums for mods.