RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[Chep]

Destroy Venice, Genoa, fight Burgundy, Spain, Cordoba, Arabia and probably more due to "close borders"?
I think we should keep this one as a "challenge" similar to the Kievan Food Challenge

also...that would mean no research, due to the sheer number of cities...right?

I mean it probably is fun and seems doable, but it would be just incredibly tough compared to other UHVs (btw: I still think France and Byzantium should get some sort of warning in their description that they are not for novice players of RFCE, that honor probably should belong to Spain/Cordoba/Venice, maybe Germany.

 

[Folket]

Personally I find that expansion UHV are boring.

 

[ezzlar]

Research is still ok during early and middle game! Late game is a pain in the ass...

While Byzantium is hard on its own, you more or less complete the UHVs automatically if you survive. France is easy but becomes incredibly hard if you try to achieve UHV 1.

The Mediterranean challenge was fun, turtling up just isn´t enough a challenge. And if it is fun or not, well that would be a matter of taste.

Settling 5 GP in Constantinople in 1025 AD might be more of a challenge for UHV 1.

Edit: And I find Venice UHVs to be really strange. Expand/conquest dalmatian coast for UHV 1. Conquer Constantinople for UHV 2. Conquer Tangiers for UHV 3. For a trade civ.

 

[Chep]

@folket: I agree, but as a final UHV for Byzantium I think it could be okay to expand some more.
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@ezzlar:
well then just try it on Emperor, I find it to be quite a decent challenge there
and I like that it is a somewhat different experience from most other civs, where you expand, expand, expand. here it is more of a "try to hang on to what you got"-thing.

also1: France is no longer "incredibly hard" (on monarch), but you have to settle some cities that might get you into trouble later on (Langres comes to mind).
sure, it is still hard, but for someone who hasnt played Byzantium >3 times before, so is Byzantium.

Also2: It might be tough to code. and I think if you chose this UHV it should be without a date. (even at the start you have Palermo, Marseille, Valencia, Tunis, Raguxa and possibly others, with more coming basically every 5 turns, so this shouldn't make it too easy but give you a bit more flexibility as to when you want to accomplish it)
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I agree with Venice. Also if you choose Amsterdam instead of Tangiers (sometimes a viable alternative) you don't even need any ships.
Maybe UHV1+2 could be merged into one UHV and the other UHVs could be something like "found the first bank" or "have open borders with every civ that owns a mediterranean port" or "blockade (controll) all port cities in the eastern mediterranean" (so you need some ships to fulfill it and not only galleys/cogs.)
the last 2 would require that the "mediterranean port city" part really is identifiable
or instead of the "found the frist bank" copy from Holland for the "settle 5 Great Merchants before XXXX"

 

[Swarbs]

I think the first UHV for Arabia could be replaced with something...a bit more demanding, or is the idea to force Arabia to found an early city in the province Arabia?
Since UHV covers the same provinces couldn't they be merged?

I've said before, I think the 1st Arab UHV should be to capture all the 2nd UHV provinces by 1000AD. The starting HAs are enough to capture as far as Tunis if you use them intelligently, and then all you need are a couple of settlers for Arabia and Algieria.

Attached is my suggestion for new Byzantine UHV2:

The rulers of the Mediterranean
- Control every port in the Mediterranean in 1200AD

I like that idea - Byzantium is certainly strong enough to do it with a focused strategy. Definitely much better than turtling till the Mongols and Seljuks pass and then founding two cities.

Perhaps the 3rd UHV could be to control Justinian's Empire? So also conquer Andalusia, all Med islands, Arabia, Italy, Crimea and the Balkans up to the Danube. Or those two could be combined into a single UHV, with a tech or culture UHV for the 3rd goal?

I agree with Venice. Also if you choose Amsterdam instead of Tangiers (sometimes a viable alternative) you don't even need any ships.
Maybe UHV1+2 could be merged into one UHV and the other UHVs could be something like "found the first bank" or "have open borders with every civ that owns a mediterranean port" or "blockade (controll) all port cities in the eastern mediterranean" (so you need some ships to fulfill it and not only galleys/cogs.)
the last 2 would require that the "mediterranean port city" part really is identifiable
or instead of the "found the frist bank" copy from Holland for the "settle 5 Great Merchants before XXXX"

I also think the Venetian UHVs should be changed. Imo the first is too easy, as Ragusa often flips, so all you need is one more settler, and the 3rd is completely unrelated to Venice. I would have:

UHV1: Make Venice the city with the highest commerce output from trade by 1100AD
UHV2: Conquer 15 Mediterranean ports east of the Veneto including Constantinople by 1204AD
UHV3: Destroy or vassalise the Ottoman Empire by 1500AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish-Venetian_War_(1499-1503)

That way Venice focuses on commerce first, then acquires its trading empire, then defends its empire from the Ottomans.

 

[archcapitalist]

ive played two games in the last few days and i really like this mod a lot. the only thing i dont like so far is the uhvs.

game one. cordova. the only problem here is the last goal. its a lot of clicking through the years to get to the end. the date could be moved up a lot. maybe conquer iberia by 1200 would be better.

looking through the uhvs for what i want to play next revealed a lot of goals that would seem to be clicking through to the end. theres way too many goals that are build so many colonies and such. the main problem is that too many of the civs are intended to last the entire game, so they have early and late goals. problem with that is, if you achieve the early goal, it usually sets you up for the late goal to be a cakewalk.

that is particularly a problem for france. the first goal is tough,(though i dislike building an empire that you are going to lose, or are better off losing) but if you do it, theres zero chance of not meeting the late goals. after 850, as france you are essentially just teching till colonies and likely way stronger than anyone else.

a paris goal would seem to be better, probably building wonders, which is what i did anyways. or a real conquest goal.

 

[Chep]

Bulgaria, Kiev, Arabia (except UHV2, if you're really good) and the Norse are civs where you should have less "clicking 'next turn' untill the deadline" as you need the turns to accomplish your UHVs and/or you've won as soon as you finish them.

I've yet to finish a game with France myself However I do like Cordoba, Spain and Germany for example, where you usually have quite some time to waste after setting yourself up for the UHVs, I just tend to set myself goals, like: found Protestantism (with Cordoba), be the only civ with colonies (and have at least 12+) with Spain or "build some colonies and conquer (most of) France before the time runs out (Germany).

Also sometimes you might just get surprised. In my most recent game with Hungary (great game, they have awesome land) I easily fullfilled UHV1+2 and was scoreleader, but Arabia just was much bigger than me and I ran into stability problems trying to out-expand them. One of my first UHV-losses - and up untill 30 turns before the end I thought I was invincible

 

[AbsintheRed]

that is particularly a problem for france. the first goal is tough,(though i dislike building an empire that you are going to lose, or are better off losing) but if you do it, theres zero chance of not meeting the late goals. after 850, as france you are essentially just teching till colonies and likely way stronger than anyone else.

a paris goal would seem to be better, probably building wonders, which is what i did anyways. or a real conquest goal.

Actually I'm toying with the idea of having a separate Frank civ, with Clovis and Charlemange as leaders.
France, Burgundy and Germany would all spawn around 840, with an auto-collapse mechanics for the Franks (if played by the AI)
If the Franks are played by the human player, they won't collapse, but kinda take over France's role in the game, with Burgundy and Germany still spawning.
I feel this would have quite a few advantages for gameplay.

 

[AdrienIer]

That would be awesome ! So France would only spawn if the Franks aren't controlled by the player ?

 

[AbsintheRed]

That would be awesome ! So France would only spawn if the Franks aren't controlled by the player ?

I have to check how the auto-collapse mechanics exactly work in SoI
(probably France can still "respawn", if the player was controlling the Franks, and later switched to another nation)
But yeah, that's the plan

I hadn't really decided on this
But would solve many gameplay difficulties:
- France's too long lifespan, so setting the civ-specific modifiers
- The endless end turns and "boredom" between the French UHVs if you want to cover both the Franks, medieval France, and the colonization era
- The problem mentioned a couple posts ago, if you are successful in your first UHV, the other are just a piece of cake (with the lots of waiting)
- Solving the various problems with the French-Burgundian starting situation on the Burgundian spawn

EDIT: One interesting situation (which is ironically also the somewhat historic situation):
What should happen when someone is playing with the Franks, and want to switch to France?

 

[swinnend]

One interesting situation (which is ironically also the somewhat historic situation):
What should happen when someone is playing with the Franks, and want to switch to France?

Well, they should get the chance, right? Maybe you can leave the Frankish empire Lotharingia in 843 (treaty of Verdun), to be eaten up by the most aggressive of the three neighbours by 877 (treaty of Meerssen). Not completely accurate from the point of view of the Franks, but OK from the standpoint of Germany and France.

 

[ezzlar]

"Franks, and want to switch to France? "

Play a new game and chose France from the start?

 

[Swarbs]

EDIT: One interesting situation (which is ironically also the somewhat historic situation):
What should happen when someone is playing with the Franks, and want to switch to France?

I would keep the Franks completely separate from France. Frankish UHVs could be:

Build 10 Catholic Churches by 800AD
Control Charlemagne's Empire by 840AD
Be the most culturally advanced civ by 840AD (Carolingian Renaissance)

UB: Chateau with +2 culture as well for the 3rd goal
UU: Frankish Axeman - Axeman with strength six to deal with barbs and conquer cities. Allows the Franks to start to expand without having to research for Mounted Sergeants or Swordsmen first.
UP: When you are unstable, cities go into anarchy instead of declaring independence (allows you to expand quickly without collapsing)
Alternative UP: +2 stability from religious buildings (rewards building of churches)

The Franks should start with four settlers, and with indie Strasbourg and Nantes defended by one archer as in this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=503761
That will give them an additional city to start with, allowing them to cover Paris, Champagne, Orleans and Picardy or Lorraine, and quickly acquire two more cities, so the conquest UHV will be much easier.

France can spawn in 840AD, and have the UHVs to control Jerusalem, build colonies and perhaps to control Napoleon's Empire by 1815AD, or something cultural?

UU: Musketeer
UB: Auditoire de Justice - Courthouse with +2 stability to help with the Napoleonic goal or +2 culture to help with the cultural goal
UP: Current French UP

That way you can play the Franks and French consecutively, carrying on your empire if you so desire. The only drawback would be that the Franks would be a very brief game, but then that would make it quite specialised for people who want to expand and have a lot of action. It would also allow people to set up a historical situation in Europe for France, Burgundy and Germany, again following the suggestions in this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=503761

 

[AdrienIer]

I like your first 2 Frank UHVs, but I'd like to have another 3rd UHV :
First maybe you should get a popup in 840 saying "Charlemagne is dead, and has divided the empire between his 3 children. Which one will you have ?"
-East Frankia
-Lotharingia
-West Frankia

Let's say you pick East Frankia : France and Burgondy spawn, you only keep the eastern part of the empire.
Then you get another popup "do you wish to embrace the German culture and set upon your own destiny or do you wish to continue the work of you father by keeping the Frankish customs", where you chose to either continue being the Franks (to finish the UHV, or to keep the stability map if you're not going for any UHV) or to take over the German nation. If you stay with the Franks, your 3rd UHV could be to have a higher score than France and Burgondy combined by 1000 (or 1200, IDK).

I think it would make for great replayability, since for your 3rd UHV you can chose the 3 parts of the empire as your base, and you can achieve it by either crushing your neighbors or expanding and building wonders.

 

[srpt]

I like your first 2 Frank UHVs, but I'd like to have another 3rd UHV :
First maybe you should get a popup in 840 saying "Charlemagne is dead, and has divided the empire between his 3 children. Which one will you have ?"

the 3 were Charlemagne's grandchidren, not his children

Well, they should get the chance, right? Maybe you can leave the Frankish empire Lotharingia in 843 (treaty of Verdun), to be eaten up by the most aggressive of the three neighbours by 877 (treaty of Meerssen). Not completely accurate from the point of view of the Franks, but OK from the standpoint of Germany and France.

that kind of makes sense. Lothar was the eldest and the central strip of Low Coutries-Burgundy-Italy was considered the prize of the inheritance.

I think all these ideas are great

 

[Swarbs]

I think it would make for great replayability, since for your 3rd UHV you can chose the 3 parts of the empire as your base, and you can achieve it by either crushing your neighbors or expanding and building wonders.

That would seem very artificially limited, as whatever part of the empire you choose, you would only have 1 UHV left to complete. Particularly if that UHV is only a high score UHV, which would be a bit boring imo. I think you'd get more replayability by having three new civs spawn from the Frankish Empire, as in real life, then choosing which one to take over and complete three new UHVs which would take your civ right the way up to the late Middle Ages. It would also be a heck of a lot less complicated to code!

I think a better way to implement your idea would be to do something similar to what srpt has done for the Romans in RFCC, who can choose to follow Republic or Empire UHVs. So each of the three Carolingian successor states should get a pop up at their spawn, with a choice of whether to follow their own path, with UHVs focused on historical France, Burgundy and the HRE, or attempt to revive the Carolingian traditions, with UHVs focused on conquering the other two, accumulating faith points, and dominating Europe culturally.

 

[Chep]

I love the idea that the Franks and the French become two separate civs!
I always feel like changing civs midgame is cheating, but the version Swarbs suggested (copying the Roman Empire mechanic) sounds awesome!

Apart from that:
1. I think the malus from bad civic choices should be bigger (maybe also the bonus). In my recent game with Germany I had ~15-18 cities and ran Merchant Republic + Bureaucracy for a meager -7 civic malus.
2. I'm not a big fan of the suggested "conquer half the world" UHVs (see Venice/Byzantium earlier here), I would much rather have the unit supports costs go up drastically, so that huge armies/empires are difficult or even impossible untill you have banks in your cities. This would probably help late starters (Austria, Ottomans, Dutch) as well.
3. There is a city that flips to Hungary 2-3 turns into the game....what's its point? In my last game I destroyed it via the worldbuilder (since I didn't want to wait for the barbs and also didn't want to take the stability hit), the city is just stupidly placed, as it can't really grow and destroys some decent city locations east&west, I'd be really happy if the "city flip -> do you want it yes/no"-mechanic could be implemented, but apart from that: why is that city even there? does it have any great historic importance that I'm unaware of?

 

[DC123456789]

Gyulafervar (is that the city you're talking about?) was and is the most important city in Transylvania

 

[ezzlar]

I love the idea that the Franks and the French become two separate civs!
I always feel like changing civs midgame is cheating, but the version Swarbs suggested (copying the Roman Empire mechanic) sounds awesome!

Apart from that:
1. I think the malus from bad civic choices should be bigger (maybe also the bonus). In my recent game with Germany I had ~15-18 cities and ran Merchant Republic + Bureaucracy for a meager -7 civic malus.
2. I'm not a big fan of the suggested "conquer half the world" UHVs (see Venice/Byzantium earlier here), I would much rather have the unit supports costs go up drastically, so that huge armies/empires are difficult or even impossible untill you have banks in your cities. This would probably help late starters (Austria, Ottomans, Dutch) as well.
3. There is a city that flips to Hungary 2-3 turns into the game....what's its point? In my last game I destroyed it via the worldbuilder (since I didn't want to wait for the barbs and also didn't want to take the stability hit), the city is just stupidly placed, as it can't really grow and destroys some decent city locations east&west, I'd be really happy if the "city flip -> do you want it yes/no"-mechanic could be implemented, but apart from that: why is that city even there? does it have any great historic importance that I'm unaware of?

As I have said earlier, I dont see a problem that a few civs would have "conquer half the world". The UHVs shouldnt be the same for all the civs.

But if city and army maintenance actually was higher (which I would really prefer) smaller regional UHVs are acceptable as conquer challenge too. But as of now very few UHVs for the large civs are difficult since you can amass so huge armies without having your economy suffering.

 

[Chep]

sure, but you already have Burgundy, Germany, Spain, England, Lithuania, Austria and the Ottomans and a couple of others that have to conquer&expand, then there is Poland, Moscow, (Kiev) and France where you have to expand untill you're huge.
changing the singular experience that is Byzantium: just try to hang on to as much as possible towards a "conquer Europe" seems less tempting. And at least currently Venice's specialty is being advanced, rich and influential despite having only very few cities (also: their stability is really bad), conquering 10, 15 cities with them just seems...meh.

I'm not against changing Byzantiums UHVs and not even against adding a "conquer XYZ"-style UHV but in my opinion it should be one that is best attempted after the Mongol invasion not one where you have to focus on expansion right from the start.
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concerning "Gyulafervar" (yeah, that was it), okay Istvans family came from there and as you said it is the most important city in the region, plus the Romans liked the spot. Still the city sucks. The tiles coincide with a possible location in the east (Segesvar-area) and Gyulafervar lacks food production of any kind so it basically doesn't grow.